Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Hopeful]

Every mortal sins. But the righteous do not do these sins-1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--both spots teach--will not enter Gods kingdom if they do( practice one of them).

If one commits any sin, one is not righteous.
Only the skin and bones are "mortal" in the reborn.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If we have no sin, it isn't a lie or deception.
Only those who walk in darkness commit sin.
Those who walk in the light walk in God.
There is no sin in God.

What Is Confirmation Bias?
Confirmation bias is a term from the field of cognitive psychology that describes how people naturally favor information that confirms their previously existing beliefs.

John walks in the light, yet says he commits sin:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That you cannot see what John says, even when print is enlarged, indicates "confirmation bias" has blinded you.

 

[keiw1]

The Greek Orthodox translation of 4416 πρωτότοκος prototokos is better:

who is the image of the invisible God, preeminent over all creation. (Col. 1:15 RPTE)

Why is it better? This is Jewish Idiom, to say Christ is "firstborn" is to say "He is preeminent like God in whose image He is."

You do agree "the invisible God is preeminent?" Right?

Therefore, Paul cannot be using prototokos "first born" literally, for then he is saying the invisible God is also "first born", because Christ is "the image of the invisible God."

Surely you will agree, Paul would not say the Father is created, right?

Then you must agree, as Paul says Christ "is the image of the invisible God" "prototokos" cannot mean Christ is created.

You can't have it both ways. That's why the Greek Orthodox translation conveys the Semitic meaning of prototokos better than a literal translation. Its idiom and idiom should never be parsed literally.

For example, its idiom to say "step on the gas" to a driver. Does he literally step in liquid gas? No, of course not. He depresses the gas peddle of a car and goes faster, so the idiom "step on the gas" means "go faster." That's how it should be translated, otherwise it confuses readers.

Yes he is Gods image. An image is NEVER the real thing.

 

[keiw1]

You evaded my simple statement. Here it is again. Prove it wrong:

"The word "Theocracy" doesn't appear in Scripture, and pagans believe in a Theocracy, and the Theocracy doctrine is very confusing.

As scripture says God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) the Theocracy doctrine is of the devil."

Therefore, every "Kingdom Hall" is "Satan's Hall."

Babylon the Great Mother of Harlots gave it birth.

What are you talking about? The whole Israelite nation in the OT was a Theocracy. A spiritual king anointed by the will of YHWH(Jehovah)
God is not the author of confusion-thus a house divided( 33,999 trinity based religions( because of confusion) will not stand. They fail this true mark 100%-1Cor 1:10= unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division)

 

[keiw1]

That being said, I thank God for allowing me to be reborn of His seed.
I am a new creature now, and not merely a mortal.
His seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.

That is dilusional. All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[keiw1]

If one commits any sin, one is not righteous.
Only the skin and bones are "mortal" in the reborn.

Thats not true-- David had sexual relations=adultery=a sin to be stoned to death for back then, and sent her husband to the very front lines to be killed= just like murdering him-yet he was Gods righteous anointed king. And remained in that position after. He wasnt stoned to death. He repented.
Peter a hand picked apostle-lied 3 x and said he did not know Jesus after all he saw with his own eyes the things Jesus did. Fear of men still took him. He stood back up by repenting.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes he is Gods image. An image is NEVER the real thing.

You aren't interpreting the entire verse, the two ideas are connected. The Son is the image of the Father, if you see Him you see the Father. The Son is the "face of God" that side of God turned to man in self-revelation:

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say,`Show us the Father '?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(Jn. 14:9-11 NKJ)

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 4:6 NKJ)

Jesus is the Word of God, that is, He is the verbalization of God's thought:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

In other words, the thought of God is made concrete real, by the Word, He is its verbalized form.

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. (Ps. 33:6 NKJ)

All creation exists in the infinite Mind of God, it is God the Word Jesus Christ who gives it concrete reality, in Him all things consist and have their being:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:15-17 NKJ)

In that sense Jesus is "Firstborn" over all creation, He is its heir, He has pre-eminence.

Just as Ephraim is called firstborn (Jer. 31:9) even though Manasseh was first born, it does not refer to "origin". It refers to preeminence, the kind only God has over His creation.

Paul is linking the two thoughts, while you are separating "firstborn" from His being the image of God, and Paul in context then explains he is talking about how Christ makes the Father real, give us a picture of "the invisible God" that we can see.

The Word of God as the face of God that is turned towards us to communicate and make Himself known, is one of the first things the Bible reveals:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (Gen. 3:8-9 KJV)


The Watchtower has completely missed Paul's point he clearly made right in the context. Christ makes the invisible God visible, He is the image we see and can know the Father by knowing Him. He is preeminent over all creation, IN HIM ALL THINGS COHERE, HOLD TOGETHER, CONSIST. Jesus makes God's thought concrete real, He brings God's Thought into actuality verbalizing it. He is the Word of God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What are you talking about? The whole Israelite nation in the OT was a Theocracy. A spiritual king anointed by the will of YHWH(Jehovah)
God is not the author of confusion-thus a house divided( 33,999 trinity based religions( because of confusion) will not stand. They fail this true mark 100%-1Cor 1:10= unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division)

So you NOW admit word that isn't in the bible, can denote a truth that is in the Bible?

Yes, Israel was a theocracy even though the word "theocracy" is not in the Bible.

My point is, the same is true for the word "Trinity", the idea of it is in the Bible.

For example, here are two separate Persons called Yahweh, one Yahweh is in heaven, the other Yahweh is on earth:

Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven; (Gen. 19:24 ASV)

Another example, Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the one who is to come. Only God can be Alpha and Omega:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus.... (Rev. 22:12-16 KJV)

Jesus Himself taught the Holy Trinity when He commanded all Christians be baptized as Trinitarians, in the Name (singular) of Father Son and Holy Spirit. Three Divine Persons are in the One Name of God.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

In other words, a "name" in the Bible is not just a label, it describes an essential element in what is named, the "main ingredients" as it were.

The main ingredients of God are: Father Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Alfred Persson]

...

God is not the author of confusion-thus a house divided( 33,999 trinity based religions( because of confusion) will not stand. They fail this true mark 100%-1Cor 1:10= unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division)

Those "Trinity based religions" are like comparing lies to Truth, garbage to Gold. Therefore your point is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

Christians are Monotheists.

Unlike polytheists like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe the Father is Almighty God and Jesus a "mighty god" (the Word was a god-NWT), we believe only in One infinite ocean of essence that is God.

That our One God is plural as to Persons, is one of the first things we learn in the Bible:

When God "said", who was He talking to? The Word is the One who "said". The Holy Spirit moved upon the face of the Waters and the Monarch of the Holy Trinity the Father, is manifest in the first verse, God created.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen. 1:1-3 KJV)

This is confirmed when God created man, the Father Son and Holy Spirit refer to themselves as "us":

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26 KJV)

The Watchtower says "us" is a plural of majesty. But it's not about God's majesty, it about our creation.
And we are not made in the image of angels, so everyone in the "us...our" must be God.

Confirming this, we are the "mirror image" of God, He is looking at Himself as we might in a mirror and the image is "reversed."

Have you not read we are One Person in Three Substances, Body Soul Spirit? (1 Thess. 5:23). That is the "mirror image" of the One God Substance in Three Persons.

These things are so clear in the Bible its amazing how anyone could miss them.

 

[keiw1]

You aren't interpreting the entire verse, the two ideas are connected. The Son is the image of the Father, if you see Him you see the Father. The Son is the "face of God" that side of God turned to man in self-revelation:

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say,`Show us the Father '?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
(Jn. 14:9-11 NKJ)

For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 4:6 NKJ)

Jesus is the Word of God, that is, He is the verbalization of God's thought:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

In other words, the thought of God is made concrete real, by the Word, He is its verbalized form.

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. (Ps. 33:6 NKJ)

All creation exists in the infinite Mind of God, it is God the Word Jesus Christ who gives it concrete reality, in Him all things consist and have their being:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:15-17 NKJ)

In that sense Jesus is "Firstborn" over all creation, He is its heir, He has pre-eminence.

Just as Ephraim is called firstborn (Jer. 31:9) even though Manasseh was first born, it does not refer to "origin". It refers to preeminence, the kind only God has over His creation.

Paul is linking the two thoughts, while you are separating "firstborn" from His being the image of God, and Paul in context then explains he is talking about how Christ makes the Father real, give us a picture of "the invisible God" that we can see.

The Word of God as the face of God that is turned towards us to communicate and make Himself known, is one of the first things the Bible reveals:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (Gen. 3:8-9 KJV)


The Watchtower has completely missed Paul's point he clearly made right in the context. Christ makes the invisible God visible, He is the image we see and can know the Father by knowing Him. He is preeminent over all creation, IN HIM ALL THINGS COHERE, HOLD TOGETHER, CONSIST. Jesus makes God's thought concrete real, He brings God's Thought into actuality verbalizing it. He is the Word of God.

One statement from Jesus proves you arent correct= The Father is greater than i.

 

[keiw1]

So you NOW admit word that isn't in the bible, can denote a truth that is in the Bible?

Yes, Israel was a theocracy even though the word "theocracy" is not in the Bible.

My point is, the same is true for the word "Trinity", the idea of it is in the Bible.

For example, here are two separate Persons called Yahweh, one Yahweh is in heaven, the other Yahweh is on earth:

Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven; (Gen. 19:24 ASV)

Another example, Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the one who is to come. Only God can be Alpha and Omega:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus.... (Rev. 22:12-16 KJV)

Jesus Himself taught the Holy Trinity when He commanded all Christians be baptized as Trinitarians, in the Name (singular) of Father Son and Holy Spirit. Three Divine Persons are in the One Name of God.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

In other words, a "name" in the Bible is not just a label, it describes an essential element in what is named, the "main ingredients" as it were.

The main ingredients of God are: Father Son and Holy Spirit.

The Abrahamic God always was and always will be a single being God. Stop in the name of the law- is more the context used by baptizing them in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit. Jesus lives 24/7, 365 doing his Fathers will. The Holy spirit( not a living being)is sent always to do the Fathers will. Only the Fathers will gets done.
The verses in rev about the alpha and Omega are about the Father-Jehovah. Then verse16 switches back to Jesus.

 

[keiw1]

Those "Trinity based religions" are like comparing lies to Truth, garbage to Gold. Therefore your point is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

Christians are Monotheists.

Unlike polytheists like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe the Father is Almighty God and Jesus a "mighty god" (the Word was a god-NWT), we believe only in One infinite ocean of essence that is God.

That our One God is plural as to Persons, is one of the first things we learn in the Bible:

When God "said", who was He talking to? The Word is the One who "said". The Holy Spirit moved upon the face of the Waters and the Monarch of the Holy Trinity the Father, is manifest in the first verse, God created.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen. 1:1-3 KJV)

This is confirmed when God created man, the Father Son and Holy Spirit refer to themselves as "us":

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Gen. 1:26 KJV)

The Watchtower says "us" is a plural of majesty. But it's not about God's majesty, it about our creation.
And we are not made in the image of angels, so everyone in the "us...our" must be God.

Confirming this, we are the "mirror image" of God, He is looking at Himself as we might in a mirror and the image is "reversed."

Have you not read we are One Person in Three Substances, Body Soul Spirit? (1 Thess. 5:23). That is the "mirror image" of the One God Substance in Three Persons.

These things are so clear in the Bible its amazing how anyone could miss them.

Let us( YHWH)Jehovah) and his master worker( Jesus) make man in our image. Every Hebrew scholar on earth as well as EVERY Israelite Jewish person will tell you, God is a single being God-always was and always will be. That is the Abrahamic God-0 doubt in all creation. They will also tell you the Hebrew translating rule in the OT for Elohim is NEVER plural for the true living God.

 

[Hopeful]

That is dilusional. All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Jesus didn't, so your example is moot.
The converted have been reborn of God's seed...right? (1 John 3:9-10)
How can God's seed bring forth the fruit of the devil?
It can't.

 

[Hopeful]

Thats not true-- David had sexual relations=adultery=a sin to be stoned to death for back then, and sent her husband to the very front lines to be killed= just like murdering him-yet he was Gods righteous anointed king. And remained in that position after. He wasnt stoned to death. He repented.

David didn't have the NT teachings, or Jesus to die for Him, so that He could be reborn of God's seed and he could walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
We do have them, thanks be to God.

Peter a hand picked apostle-lied 3 x and said he did not know Jesus after all he saw with his own eyes the things Jesus did. Fear of men still took him. He stood back up by repenting.

Again, a pre-rebirth situation.
If an earlier repentance was ever made, the sin showed it was a lie to God.
One can't form a relationship with God that is based on lies.

 

[Alfred Persson]

One statement from Jesus proves you arent correct= The Father is greater than i.

If Jesus is saying what you claim, then it becomes "stupid".

Who doesn't know God is greater than any creature?

As that is how you interpret it, and it would be a stupid thing to say, Jesus IS NOT saying that.


Jesus did not say "The Father is BETTER than I" as you claim. "Greater" does not mean "better".

For example. You are "greater" than your son, but not "BETTER" because he is human like you.

"So the Father isn’t greater than Jesus in deity any more than a human father is greater than his son in humanity"-Gundry


Read the entire verse. WHY did Jesus say: If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father?

They were sad for THEMSELVES, rather than rejoicing at Jesus' exaltation upon returning to His Father in Triumph, they were thinking only of themselves.

All Fathers are greater than their sons, and they shower their children with affection and gifts and its a joyous time of love and fellowship. If they were putting Jesus first, loving Him rather than thinking about themselves, they would rejoice.

He would be returning to His Father in Triumph, having shamed all principalities and powers and ruler of this world.

Having vindicated the Father to all in heaven and earth, glorified His Name.

NOW READ the entire verse:

"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (Jn. 14:28 NKJ)


If the prodigal son got the Fattened calf, what would the Son of God receive at His return?

If they loved Jesus, of course they would want He go to the Father, for the Father is greater than He. Its the Father who would make the celebration happen.

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. (Rev. 5:11-14 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

Let us( YHWH)Jehovah) and his master worker( Jesus) make man in our image. Every Hebrew scholar on earth as well as EVERY Israelite Jewish person will tell you, God is a single being God-always was and always will be. That is the Abrahamic God-0 doubt in all creation. They will also tell you the Hebrew translating rule in the OT for Elohim is NEVER plural for the true living God.

You have forgotten about the Word?
Where did He fit in?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Abrahamic God always was and always will be a single being God. Stop in the name of the law- is more the context used by baptizing them in the name of the Father, son and holy spirit. Jesus lives 24/7, 365 doing his Fathers will. The Holy spirit( not a living being)is sent always to do the Fathers will. Only the Fathers will gets done.
The verses in rev about the alpha and Omega are about the Father-Jehovah. Then verse16 switches back to Jesus.

I seem to have touched a nerve. Perhaps the conviction of the Holy Spirit is finally breaking through the WatchTower programming.

The Holy Trinity was so important to Jesus He made belief in it a requirement for Baptism:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:19-1:1 NKJ)

Just as the Father is a Person and the Son is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be a Person because they all share the same Name.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Let us( YHWH)Jehovah) and his master worker( Jesus) make man in our image. Every Hebrew scholar on earth as well as EVERY Israelite Jewish person will tell you, God is a single being God-always was and always will be. That is the Abrahamic God-0 doubt in all creation. They will also tell you the Hebrew translating rule in the OT for Elohim is NEVER plural for the true living God.

What about Messianic Jewish Hebrew Scholars? Why don't you quote them?

A Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective - Jews for Jesus

Rabbis who believed that each word of the Hebrew Scriptures, each letter, is God’s revelation had to admit that God spoke to himself and referred to himself in the plural. How can that be, when we know there is only one God?

jewsforjesus.org

 

[Alfred Persson]

That is dilusional. All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Finally we agree. Who knows, perhaps there is more agreement to come?

E. C. Gruss' "Apostles of Denial" "went over my head" mostly, but Acts 13:2 got my attention:

"As they publicly ministered to Jehovah and fasted, the holy spirit said, 'Separate Saul and Barnabus to ME for the work to which I have called them.'"-Acts 13:2 NWT

They are ministering to Jehovah, but Jehovah does not speak, it is the Holy Spirit who speaks, using personal pronouns "Me" "I".

Only a Person can say "I" "ME".

 

[keiw1]

Jesus didn't, so your example is moot.
The converted have been reborn of God's seed...right? (1 John 3:9-10)
How can God's seed bring forth the fruit of the devil?
It can't.

Jesus is the only one who didnt sin.