Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Alfred Persson]

Truth is truth, no matter the source. Satan knows much truth, would he be wrong if he spoke a truth-no.

Let us( YHWH and his master worker) is the reality of that statement.

Only if the "master worker" is God will it be consistent with "man " being in the likeness and image of God.

If your "master worker" is less than YHWH God Almighty, then we are not in the likeness and image of God, the image is corrupt. Its something less than the image of God, it contains the image and likeness of an inferior being.

That is why every Person in the "us" "our" must be fully God, not an "a god" or "active force."

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
(Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Even the Rabbis who tried their best to say God was talking to the angels, understood that contradicted man being in the Image of God. Then man is in the image of God and angels, which the bible doesn't teach.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Since the Holy spirit isnt a living being, it was actually God who spoke through the holy spirit. Just like in the single passage where God sent the holy spirit as a go between and God asked a question, the answer was a lie, it wasnt to the holy spirit who got lied to, it was to God the lie went. It isnt as your religion twists it to be. God asked the question, he Got the answer. The Holy spirit was just a go between.

Acts 13:2 is "prose", a "newspaper like report" of what happened. The Bible says the Holy Spirit spoke, commanded the disciples and used personal pronouns "I" and "Me".

Read the verse for yourself IN CONTEXT, just read and believe what you read. This is God's Word:

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:2-4 NKJ)

ONLY a Person can use Personal pronouns "I" "Me". Then the Bible explicitly says they were "sent out by the Holy Spirit."

 

[Alfred Persson]

You wont believe Jesus so why mention him?--John 17:3 teaches-the one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

The Father is the only true God. So also is the Son, for the Persons of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit subsist in the One Name of God, the Only True Substance that is God (Matt. 28:19):

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)


You can see the Trinitarian "God the Father" and "God the Son" (the Lord Jesus the Word) who created all things, here:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live (1 Cor. 8:6 NKJ)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Diagram this.

On top is God who created all things:
_________________________________________
Beneath the line is all things created.

Where is the Word who created all things? He is ABOVE the line, not below it.

Therefore, the "Word was God"

The Watchtower quoted spiritist Johannes Greber for support of their NWT "the word was a god" rendering.

But I exposed that decades ago and Christian apologists everywhere forced them to stop quoting him.

They quoted Satan, because Johannes Greber explained he listened to spirits when translating the Greek, only when they were silent did he translate the text. In John 1:1 they weren't silent:


In the Watchtower's "Aid to Bible Understanding," (1971) p. 1669 "THE WORD" AS A TITLE…

"A translation by a former Roman Catholic priest, Johannes Greber (1937 ed), renders the second appearance of the word "god" in the sentence as "a god."

I was suspicious of that and soon found out why Mr Greber was a former priest, he became a spiritist and made a new translation based upon what the spirits told him during seances.

" The New Testament - A New Translation and Explanation. Based on the oldest manuscripts," (1937) .

He explains: "Whenever the spirits were silent" he translated the Greek, but when they spoke he copied their words verbatim. Demons dictated "the word was a god" in John 1:1.

Greber's other book was:

"Communication with the Spirit World: Its Laws and Purpose, Personal Experiences of a Catholic Priest , Greber, Johannes

Satan agrees with the Watchtower translation.

How do you feel about that?

 

[keiw1]

There was no Law while Enoch walked among us, so without Law, there is no sin. (Rom 3:20)
And, as it is written that "the wages of sin is death", neither died so their lives must have been free of sin to satisfy the Rom 6:23 scripture.
I'ld also like to point out Rom 5:13-14..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
Who do you think Paul is referring to there?
Having skin and bones doesn't equate to "sinner".
If it did, all babies are sinners.
All the aborted babies will go to hell.
Is that what you think?

Adam and Eve sinned-thus sin carried over to all. Aborted babies had 0 chance to make a choice with free will to commit a sin. Romans 14 is referring to Adam being perfect and choosing to sin. No others were perfect after him until Jesus.

 

[keiw1]

There are no "acceptable" sins.
That is why Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
He is correct, as usual.

All sin=100% guarantee--You are taking it out of context. Some practice sin, others fall along the way but stand back up. Take Peters Example, he had truth, yet out of fear of men, even after seeing Jesus create miracle after miracle, he lied 3 x and said he didnt know Jesus. He stood back up. It wasnt something he kept on doing--That is the difference with sin.

 

[keiw1]

Only if the "master worker" is God will it be consistent with "man " being in the likeness and image of God.

If your "master worker" is less than YHWH God Almighty, then we are not in the likeness and image of God, the image is corrupt. Its something less than the image of God, it contains the image and likeness of an inferior being.

That is why every Person in the "us" "our" must be fully God, not an "a god" or "active force."

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
(Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Even the Rabbis who tried their best to say God was talking to the angels, understood that contradicted man being in the Image of God. Then man is in the image of God and angels, which the bible doesn't teach.

Jesus is Gods master worker of Proverbs 8-He tells all he was brought forth as with labor pains= created. Created direct-first and last, all other things created through him, making him Gods master worker. Coll 1:15- The FIRSTBORN of all creation.

 

[keiw1]

Acts 13:2 is "prose", a "newspaper like report" of what happened. The Bible says the Holy Spirit spoke, commanded the disciples and used personal pronouns "I" and "Me".

Read the verse for yourself IN CONTEXT, just read and believe what you read. This is God's Word:

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:2-4 NKJ)

ONLY a Person can use Personal pronouns "I" "Me". Then the Bible explicitly says they were "sent out by the Holy Spirit."

Many things in the bible are portrayed as a living thing like that but are not. In Catholicisms own encyclopedia it says-In most cases in the NT the holy spirit is not being portrayed as a living being.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Many things in the bible are portrayed as a living thing like that but are not. In Catholicisms own encyclopedia it says-In most cases in the NT the holy spirit is not being portrayed as a living being.

No, it doesn't say that. This is what it says:

For the centuries preceding Constantinople, the Church had struggled with the issue of whether the Holy Spirit is something or Someone. This ambiguity stems from the New Testament itself. The Holy Spirit is often referred to by an impersonal pronoun, since the word for spirit, pneuma, is a noun of neuter gender in Greek. But other New Testament texts, especially in the Acts of the Apostles and chapters 14 through 16 of the Gospel of John, refer to the Holy Spirit with words and pronouns that are personal (Acts 13:2; 16:6–7; John 14:26; 16:7–15). After four centuries of theological struggle surrounding the personal identity of the Holy Spirit, the Council of Constantinople solemnly proclaimed the Church’s belief in the Holy Spirit not as a personification of God’s power, but as third divine Person, transcending all that human beings mean by “person.”-Glazier, M., & Hellwig, M. K. (2004). In The modern Catholic encyclopedia (Rev. and expanded ed., pp. 372–373). Liturgical Press.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus is Gods master worker of Proverbs 8-He tells all he was brought forth as with labor pains= created. Created direct-first and last, all other things created through him, making him Gods master worker. Coll 1:15- The FIRSTBORN of all creation.

Incorrect.

The idea God existed without Wisdom until He created it, is absurd.

How would God without wisdom, create wisdom?

The context denies wisdom was created. It says God "at the beginning of His way" already possessed wisdom:

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. (Prov. 8:22 NKJ)

That is consistent with John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός) of the Father, not a creation by the Father:

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:18 NKJ)

In a parable Eternal Generation could be represented by "birth, a bringing forth", but the Generation of the Son is "Eternal". Its ongoing. It didn't begin in time and will never end in time. Jesus is God's Eternal Son.

And the parable says "in the beginning wisdom already was", for God already possessed wisdom "in the beginning."

When the first thing was created, THAT is when "the beginning" began.

Both the Word and Wisdom were already possessed by God, "in the beginning both Wisdom and the Word ALREADY WERE"

So God was never without Wisdom or His Word. All things came into existence though Him and not one thing was created without Wisdom or the Word.

The Watchtower is taking the poetic parable too far. Its not about a human father and son, its about God the Father and God the Son.

What is true of us is not true of God, He is infinite, eternal, far beyond our intellectual capacity to fathom.

BUT the terms Father and Son express a Personal relationship Father and Son have, its just beyond our ability to know exactly how that works.

So we accept the Scripture's teaching, and don't make stuff up like the Watchtower.

The idea God existed without Wisdom until He created it, is absurd.

[From where did God get the wisdom to create wisdom?]

The idea God existed without His Word is also absurd.

Was He speechless, without reason "at first?"

 

[Hopeful]

Adam and Eve sinned-thus sin carried over to all.

Actually, it is death that carried over to all...but a few.
It is written..."Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Rom 5:14)

Aborted babies had 0 chance to make a choice with free will to commit a sin. Romans 14 is referring to Adam being perfect and choosing to sin. No others were perfect after him until Jesus.

What sin do you accuse Enoch of?
Elijah?

 

[Hopeful]

All sin=100% guarantee--

What can anyone call an acceptable sin?

You are taking it out of context. Some practice sin, others fall along the way but stand back up. Take Peters Example, he had truth, yet out of fear of men, even after seeing Jesus create miracle after miracle, he lied 3 x and said he didnt know Jesus. He stood back up. It wasnt something he kept on doing--That is the difference with sin.

Peter's sins were during the OT.
Before rebirth and the gift of the Holy Ghost were available.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 Joh 3:9-10)

 

[keiw1]

The Father is the only true God. So also is the Son, for the Persons of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit subsist in the One Name of God, the Only True Substance that is God (Matt. 28:19):

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)


You can see the Trinitarian "God the Father" and "God the Son" (the Lord Jesus the Word) who created all things, here:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live (1 Cor. 8:6 NKJ)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Diagram this.

On top is God who created all things:
_________________________________________
Beneath the line is all things created.

Where is the Word who created all things? He is ABOVE the line, not below it.

Therefore, the "Word was God"

The Watchtower quoted spiritist Johannes Greber for support of their NWT "the word was a god" rendering.

But I exposed that decades ago and Christian apologists everywhere forced them to stop quoting him.

They quoted Satan, because Johannes Greber explained he listened to spirits when translating the Greek, only when they were silent did he translate the text. In John 1:1 they weren't silent:


In the Watchtower's "Aid to Bible Understanding," (1971) p. 1669 "THE WORD" AS A TITLE…

"A translation by a former Roman Catholic priest, Johannes Greber (1937 ed), renders the second appearance of the word "god" in the sentence as "a god."

I was suspicious of that and soon found out why Mr Greber was a former priest, he became a spiritist and made a new translation based upon what the spirits told him during seances.

" The New Testament - A New Translation and Explanation. Based on the oldest manuscripts," (1937) .

He explains: "Whenever the spirits were silent" he translated the Greek, but when they spoke he copied their words verbatim. Demons dictated "the word was a god" in John 1:1.

Greber's other book was:

"Communication with the Spirit World: Its Laws and Purpose, Personal Experiences of a Catholic Priest , Greber, Johannes

Satan agrees with the Watchtower translation.

How do you feel about that?

If you are correct then your God is insane--He prayed to himself, At Rev 1:1 he said-here me have a revelation. And he sat at his own right hand. And sent himself to earth= 0 chance.

Incorrect.

The idea God existed without Wisdom until He created it, is absurd.

How would God without wisdom, create wisdom?

The context denies wisdom was created. It says God "at the beginning of His way" already possessed wisdom:

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. (Prov. 8:22 NKJ)

That is consistent with John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός) of the Father, not a creation by the Father:

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn. 1:18 NKJ)

In a parable Eternal Generation could be represented by "birth, a bringing forth", but the Generation of the Son is "Eternal". Its ongoing. It didn't begin in time and will never end in time. Jesus is God's Eternal Son.

And the parable says "in the beginning wisdom already was", for God already possessed wisdom "in the beginning."

When the first thing was created, THAT is when "the beginning" began.

Both the Word and Wisdom were already possessed by God, "in the beginning both Wisdom and the Word ALREADY WERE"

So God was never without Wisdom or His Word. All things came into existence though Him and not one thing was created without Wisdom or the Word.

The Watchtower is taking the poetic parable too far. Its not about a human father and son, its about God the Father and God the Son.

What is true of us is not true of God, He is infinite, eternal, far beyond our intellectual capacity to fathom.

BUT the terms Father and Son express a Personal relationship Father and Son have, its just beyond our ability to know exactly how that works.

So we accept the Scripture's teaching, and don't make stuff up like the Watchtower.

The idea God existed without Wisdom until He created it, is absurd.

[From where did God get the wisdom to create wisdom?]

The idea God existed without His Word is also absurd.

Was He speechless, without reason "at first?"

The LORD produced me as the beginning of his way is the correct rendering of that Hebrew statement. It goes on to say-i was brought forth as with labor pains= created.
God didnt exist without wisdom, you are misapplying what is said. Its not saying wisdom was produced, Gods master worker was produced. Created direct, first and last= Coll 1:15- the FIRSTBORN of all creation-Fact= All creation occurred at the beginning.

 

[keiw1]

Actually, it is death that carried over to all...but a few.
It is written..."Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Rom 5:14)

What sin do you accuse Enoch of?
Elijah?

ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.
1Kings 8:46--There is no man that does not sin.

 

[keiw1]

What can anyone call an acceptable sin?


Peter's sins were during the OT.
Before rebirth and the gift of the Holy Ghost were available.
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 Joh 3:9-10)

Repented sin gets forgiven. There are many sins not in those 2 lists. Say one is having a bad day and traffic is terrible and one has to wait a long time, possibly a swear word slips out, or something said in a burst of anger.
The words about of Jesus and Peter all occurred in the NT. Men in the OT got holy spirit. Isaiah 63:10---God inspired the words of the OT by holy spirit through men.

 

[Hopeful]

ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.
1Kings 8:46--There is no man that does not sin.

Jesus proved that notion wrong 2000 years ago.
Since then, all those reborn of the same seed from which Jesus was gendered can also live without sin.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

Repented sin gets forgiven.

They can be, if they are not recommitted.
That would be a real repentance from sin.

There are many sins not in those 2 lists. Say one is having a bad day and traffic is terrible and one has to wait a long time, possibly a swear word slips out, or something said in a burst of anger.

Be angry, but sin not...said Paull in Eph 4:26.
He doesn't command us to do the impossible.

The words about of Jesus and Peter all occurred in the NT. Men in the OT got holy spirit. Isaiah 63:10---God inspired the words of the OT by holy spirit through men.

They were all under the Old Covenant until the resurrection of Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophesies concerning the Messiah's coming.
Though some OT men received a measure of the Holy Ghost, they could not yet be reborn until Jesus was resurrected.
We can now walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you are correct then your God is insane--He prayed to himself, At Rev 1:1 he said-here me have a revelation. And he sat at his own right hand. And sent himself to earth= 0 chance.

I don't see God praying to Himself in this verse:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants-- things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, (Rev. 1:1 NKJ)

God revealed Jesus Christ to His servants via an angel. Jesus has two natures, Divine and Human. Of course God revealed the Messiah to us, in scripture, in deed and now in the book of Revelation. Don't see how that makes God insane.

 

[keiw1]

Jesus proved that notion wrong 2000 years ago.
Since then, all those reborn of the same seed from which Jesus was gendered can also live without sin.
Thanks be to God !

Yes, only Jesus after the fall in Eden.

 

[keiw1]

They can be, if they are not recommitted.
That would be a real repentance from sin.

Be angry, but sin not...said Paull in Eph 4:26.
He doesn't command us to do the impossible.

They were all under the Old Covenant until the resurrection of Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophesies concerning the Messiah's coming.
Though some OT men received a measure of the Holy Ghost, they could not yet be reborn until Jesus was resurrected.
We can now walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

Every mortal on earth lives in the flesh, its a battle daily Paul said. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Most give into it.

 

[keiw1]

I don't see God praying to Himself in this verse:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants-- things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, (Rev. 1:1 NKJ)

God revealed Jesus Christ to His servants via an angel. Jesus has two natures, Divine and Human. Of course God revealed the Messiah to us, in scripture, in deed and now in the book of Revelation. Don't see how that makes God insane.

Rev 1:1 if Jesus is God--then God said--here me have a revelation. But any who understands english can see 100% there are 2 beings mentioned- one is God, the other is Jesus. All over the NT its like that. God mentioned separate from the name Jesus.