Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Cnkw3]

How can this apply only to the living when everyone PHYSICALLY dies, both righteous and unrighteous:

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right;
...
If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully-- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD. (Ezek. 18:4-17 NKJ)

Therefore, God is NOT speaking about living physically, the soul that sins "dies spiritually" and the soul that obeys God "lives spiritually" even if he physically dies.

Therefore, the restriction of this to only the living is forced, not in the text at all. God doesn't specify it applies only when people are alive. That is a presumption that seems likely, UNTIL we notice all the other scriptures that suggest, imply and explicitly state repentance in hell is possible. I cited them more than once, you ignored them:

(1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15 )

I didnt ignore those passages I dealt with Jonah to show how it DOES NOT confirm repentance after death because Jonah wasn’t dead. If that passage falls your entire list falls, why should i go any further. I already showed that you are misrepresenting scripture.

 

[Cnkw3]

Because God says His Word gets the results He sent it to accomplish.

As God's word is preached to the dead, it follows it got good results. For example, the "spirits in prison" Christ (the Word of God) preached to, MUST have given the "answer of a good conscience towards God" because if they didn't nothing in the context is a true antitype to how the Church is saved by giving the same "answer of a good conscience" to Christ's preaching:


18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo), when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)


These heard Noah's preaching but they refused to believe (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) and so were disobedient to God's offer of salvation. They were the hybrid angel-human offspring, "men of renown" (Gen. 6:2, 4) who also died during the flood (Gen. 7:21-23).

They weren't evil, they just didn't believe God would forgive the "corruption of God's image in man with the image of angels." (Compare Gen. 6:9, 11-13)

They believed themselves to be an abomination to God.

Evidently, Christ convinced them because only then could their answer to his preaching be LIKE the Church's answer to His preaching that results in salvation.

You are back to your same old trick pony passages. It says “prison”. It does not say “hell”. If that is supposed to be hell then why doesn’t one translation of the Bible use the word hell? Ever think of that? Not one translation uses the word hell. The reason is the meaning of the passage has nothing to do with “hell”!

 

[Alfred Persson]

The facts of true God worship history and the teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers. There is no better backing. Your shared scriptures contradict both fact and Jesus to the core because your translations are filled with errors. Its you taught to believe all the errors over Fact and Jesus. Not by sorcery but by satans will instilled into your translations centuries ago.

I cited the WatchTower where they added their own words to the Word of God, to diminish God's Word and steal its effect on readers.

This quote from the WatchTower Magazine is an example of Sorcery:

13 By means of “the faithful and discreet slave,” Jesus has built up a remarkable organization on earth to promote pure worship. How do you feel about that organization? In response, perhaps you think of the words of the apostle Peter, who said to Jesus: “Whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68) Where would any of us be today if we had not come in contact with Jehovah’s organization? Through it, Christ makes sure that we are well-fed spiritually. He also trains us to carry out our ministry effectively. Further, he helps us to put on “the new personality,” so that we are pleasing to Jehovah.—Eph. 4:24. -w22 July p. 11-13

They know the Word of God is powerful, effects readers inwardly, cutting to the quick:

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb. 4:12 NKJ)

By adding their words to spliced and diced scripture, they satanically rob some of that power for their own words. That is Sorcery.

Notice the connection, God made it Himself:

2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
3 "Your eyes have seen what the LORD did at Baal Peor; for the LORD your God has destroyed from among you all the men who followed Baal of Peor.
4 "But you who held fast to the LORD your God are alive today, every one of you.
5 "Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess.
6 "Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say,`Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' (Deut. 4:2-6 NKJ)

By adding man's word to God's word, Baal (Satan) is being followed, not God.

These things are written in the Holy Scriptures for our instruction, so that we take heed to do all Yahweh our God has commanded we do, and not turn to the left or the right. Like frontlets, we are to keep God's word before our eyes continually, when we lay down and when we get up and when we walk on the way.

The WatchTower wants its victims do that with their words, not God's.

You did not refute that allegation. Ignoring it isn't the same as refuting it. Try again.

 

[Alfred Persson]

”dead” does not always mean….in the grave. Why dont you include vs 24 with 25.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:25
You mean you can be “dead” but still be upright and breathing? Wow. Not according to you. Your one track mind has the word “dead” always mean…”in the grave”. When you include 24 with vs 25 and we see that the “dead” in vs 25 are those that WERE DEAD but after hearing have passed from DEATH TO LIFE which means they are no longer dead. They have been made alive. Born again. Quickened.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:1
The 25 section starts with…the hour is coming and now is.
The next section in 28 says….the hour is coming (he doesn’t say…and now is). When all that are “in the grave”. See the difference? The ”dead” in vs 24,25 ARE NOT people who are “in the grave”.
The truth is….Man is “dead” in sin and now has the option to hear, believe and be can then be “made alive” or “quickened”. Then after being put in the grave, these made alive faithful people will be raised to everlasting life.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22
LIFE Is found “in Christ”! How does one get “into Christ”? They are baptized into Christ. Rom 6, Gal 3, 1 cor 12. So the only people who will be “Made alive” will be those that obey the gospel…hear believe and are baptized Mk 16:15,16. This WILL NOT happen after you die..

Wrong verses. In John 5:24-25 Jesus is speaking to the living. In John 5:28-29 he is speaking about those who hear His voice while they are dead, "in the grave":


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Just as "HEAR" in John 5:24-25 means "obey what they hear", so that meaning exists in John 5:28. Same Greek words, same theme, only the audience is different. But the result for both is the same, life after choosing to obey Christ's voice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No it doesn’t.

Your opinion is not a refutation of my argument. But it does reveal you can't refute the argument.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hi Alfred,

Angels were created. (Ez. 28: 15) NO lineage.
Angels are spirit beings. (Heb. 1: 14)
Angels do NOT marry. (Matt. 22: 30)

Marilyn.

Sinning angels can have sex with humans, both Genesis and Jude's letter says so:

2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose.
3 So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men. (Gen. 6:2-4 NET)

In the OT "sons of God" always refers to angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). That is what Jude and Peter refer to when speaking of angels who sinned:

6 You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day.
7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NET)

Fornication covers all kinds of sexual immorality. The fallen angels committed fornication by engaging in sexual intercourse with females of the human species. Similarly though not equivalently, the men of Sodom, Gomorrah, and surrounding cities engaged in sexual intercourse with “another kind of flesh,” that is, flesh other than that of the females God created for them to copulate with. Jude has correctly deduced from the Sodomites’ demanding Lot deliver to them his guests, who they thought were human males, that the Sodomites and their neighbors practiced homosexuality (plus bestiality?).

Gundry, R. H. (2010). Commentary on the New Testament: Verse-by-Verse Explanations with a Literal Translation (p. 992). Hendrickson Publishers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It says that God is “ready” to judge the those that are alive and those that are dead. This is true. At the second coming there will be both people that are in the grave and some that are still alive and they both will be lined up for judgment. Also when you read on in 1 pet 4 you see that Gods judgment will begin in his own house. These are people that have been made alive but not all will remain faithful. That is why he can say…
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 Peter 4:17-18
Open your mind, study and get off your one track, false doctrine, pony.

You missed the point completely.

Who are "the dead" in1 Pet. 4:6? The same "dead" God will judge in 1 Pet. 4:5. FOR THIS REASON, so God could judge them for accepting or rejecting Christ, the gospel is preached to the dead also, just as it is to the living:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

 

[Cnkw3]

Anti-semitism is unworthy of the Church.

There are no “jews” today. Whatever they practice and claim today is just another false religion. There are people from the nation of modern day Israel but they are not “jews” in the Biblical meaning.

Although Christ criticized the traditions of the Pharisees that contradicted God's Word, fact is many early Christians were former Pharisees. They weren't treated by the Apostles as you treat them, their arguments were heard, debated:

I don’t treat them anyway. The pharisees were a group that fought against Jesus his entire ministry. He spent an entire chapter scolding them. They were the religious elite and thought they were better then the rest. Lk 18:11. They made up their own doctrine and tried to bind it on the people. Mt 15:7-9 This is what you do. This whole doctrine here of yours is completely fabricated in your own mind. It did not come from the Bible.

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
7 And when there had been much dispute (Acts 15:5-7 NKJ)

They were teaching and binding false doctrine. Paul corrected them. This is what I am doing with you.

The Apostle Paul learned Pharisee traditions from Gamaliel, someone all Pharisees respected during the time of Christ:

3 "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ)

Perhaps you didn't notice, but Paul did what Christ said Pharisees should do, bring out of their Pharisee knowledge, what is treasure:

Paul was a Pharisee and look where that got him…he tried to destroy Christ. He was very zealous but not in a good way. Zeal does not mean “right”.

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

Paul wrote much of the NT. Isn't it odd a Pharisee the son of a Pharisee should be Christianity's most prolific theologian, scholar, debater?

The key is…..He didnt stay a Pharisee. He became a Christian. As a Pharisee he persecuted the church. As a Christian he preached and debated for Christ.

Does that fit your disdain of their scriptural beliefs, that Christ likened to treasure?

Evidently, God chose a Pharisee, to bring treasure to His church.

Was Paul a killer? Yes or no?
When was he a Killer? While living the life of a Pharisee controlled by his Pharisee friends or while living the life of a Christian? If you cant see the difference then you prove my point.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Horrible death? What death? You think Paul is asking them to kill the person? NO!
The only control a church would have over any convert would be to excommunicate. Thats it. You cant do anything else to another member of the body of Christ.
And, who will be saved? THE BODY. Eph 5:23. This is how a church is to ”deliver a one to satan“. If you are outside the body of Christ you are in the body of satan. There are only two places to live in this world.

No, didn't say that at all. Paul says he was delivering the sinner over to Satan, so he would destroy his flesh.

Destroyed flesh is dead flesh, that is elementary deduction that is confirmed in the context, which says this MIGHT result in the sinner's spirit being saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)

Another elementary deduction. As it is his spirit that might be saved, not the flesh....his repentance and saving belief in Christ must have occurred while he was dead, in hell.

Paul doesn't know if the sinner will repent in hell, so he says "his spirit MAY be saved".

In hell there is no feigning belief. All that ability to deceive is destroyed with the body and the soul is laid bare to the tormenting fires of hell.

 

[Cnkw3]

You missed the point completely.

Who are "the dead" in1 Pet. 4:6? The same "dead" God will judge in 1 Pet. 4:5. FOR THIS REASON, so God could judge them for accepting or rejecting Christ, the gospel is preached to the dead also, just as it is to the living:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

The “those who are dead” is referring to gentiles. They are the focus of this context. Peter is writing to Hebrew Christian’s and he is contrasting them with the gentile…
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1 Peter 4:3
The gentiles were dead in sin. And because God is ready to judge all, he had the gospel also preached to the “dead” gentile people.
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:16-18
Reconcile both? Who are “both”? Jew and gentile! How did he do it? Through preaching.
Those that were “afar off” are the gentile.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:39
So, No….he is not down in hell preaching peace and the gospel to the lost.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are no “jews” today. Whatever they practice and claim today is just another false religion. There are people from the nation of modern day Israel but they are not “jews” in the Biblical meaning.

I don’t treat them anyway. The pharisees were a group that fought against Jesus his entire ministry. He spent an entire chapter scolding them. They were the religious elite and thought they were better then the rest. Lk 18:11. They made up their own doctrine and tried to bind it on the people. Mt 15:7-9 This is what you do. This whole doctrine here of yours is completely fabricated in your own mind. It did not come from the Bible.

They were teaching and binding false doctrine. Paul corrected them. This is what I am doing with you.

Paul was a Pharisee and look where that got him…he tried to destroy Christ. He was very zealous but not in a good way. Zeal does not mean “right”.

The key is…..He didnt stay a Pharisee. He became a Christian. As a Pharisee he persecuted the church. As a Christian he preached and debated for Christ.

Was Paul a killer? Yes or no?
When was he a Killer? While living the life of a Pharisee controlled by his Pharisee friends or while living the life of a Christian? If you cant see the difference then you prove my point.

That is terribly wrong, they are Jews.

Its analogous to genocide to rob a people of their identity. That was the key to Nazis getting Germans to ignore the Holocaust, they stripped away Jewish identity, their humanity.

You missed Jesus' estimation of Pharisee beliefs that do not contradict God's word, its treasure.

As Jesus calls it treasure, who are you to say different?

51 Jesus said to them, "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:51-52 NKJ)

Scribes believe the same as the Pharisees, that's why scripture often mentions them together:

"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. NKJ Matt. 5:20
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." NKJ Matt. 12:38
Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, NKJ Matt. 15:1
saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. NKJ Matt. 23:2
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. NKJ Matt. 23:13
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. NKJ Matt. 23:14
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. NKJ Matt. 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. NKJ Matt. 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. NKJ Matt. 23:25
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. NKJ Matt. 23:27
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, NKJ Matt. 23:29
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, "How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?" NKJ Mk. 2:16
Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. NKJ Mk. 7:1
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" NKJ Mk. 7:5
And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" NKJ Lk. 5:21
And their scribes and the Pharisees complained against His disciples, saying, "Why do You eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?" NKJ Lk. 5:30
So the scribes and Pharisees watched Him closely, whether He would heal on the Sabbath, that they might find an accusation against Him. NKJ Lk. 6:7
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them." NKJ Lk. 11:44
And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, NKJ Lk. 11:53
And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." NKJ Lk. 15:2
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, NKJ Jn. 8:3
Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God." NKJ Acts 23:9

 

[Cnkw3]

No, didn't say that at all. Paul says he was delivering the sinner over to Satan, so he would destroy his flesh.

Destroyed flesh is dead flesh, that is elementary deduction that is confirmed in the context, which says this MIGHT result in the sinner's spirit being saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)

Another elementary deduction. As it is his spirit that might be saved, not the flesh....his repentance and saving belief in Christ must have occurred while he was dead, in hell.

Paul doesn't know if the sinner will repent in hell, so he says "his spirit MAY be saved".

In hell there is no feigning belief. All that ability to deceive is destroyed with the body and the soul is laid bare to the tormenting fires of hell.

Tell me something? Can you imagine anyone in hell that would not want to get out? You really think that there are people that when they get to hell are going to be loving it there? People say they want to go to hell all the time but they have no idea what they are even saying. My point is…..If jesus goes to hell to preach to people, then he will have a 100% conversion rate. Everyone is ultimately going to be saved. That makes all of this Bible and preaching stuff in this life a moot point.

 

[Cnkw3]

That is terribly wrong, they are Jews.

You think anybody today can show you that they are from the tribe of Judah? Not a chance. So that means it is all made up. They have created their own hybrid Jewish religion.

Its analogous to genocide to rob a people of their identity. That was the key to getting Germans to ignore the Holocaust, they stripped away Jewish identity, their humanity.

It was God that destroyed their City, Temple, Records and sent them packing for 2000 years. He has had nothing to do with them since. If you believe so then prove it. Just because some people fought their way back into the land area after 1900 hundred years does not prove anything spiritually. These “jews” have very right to drop their false doctrine and religion and become a Christian but they choose not too. I am amazed at the vast number of Christians who are ok with and stand behind a people who hate the very man they worship.

You missed Jesus' estimation of Pharisee beliefs that do not contradict God's word, its treasure.

Gods word is treasure. The pharisees didnt teach that.

As Jesus calls it treasure, who are you to say different?

51 Jesus said to them, "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:51-52 NKJ)

This passage says nothing about pharisees.

Scribes believe the same as the Pharisees, that's why scripture often mentions them together:

They were different. A scribe new the law and could write. Some did believe the same but they were not the same. You, once again, are adding to the text information that is not there.

"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. NKJ Matt. 5:20
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." NKJ Matt. 12:38
Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, NKJ Matt. 15:1
saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. NKJ Matt. 23:2
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. NKJ Matt. 23:13
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. NKJ Matt. 23:14
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. NKJ Matt. 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. NKJ Matt. 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. NKJ Matt. 23:25
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. NKJ Matt. 23:27
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, NKJ Matt. 23:29
And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, "How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?" NKJ Mk. 2:16
Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. NKJ Mk. 7:1
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" NKJ Mk. 7:5
And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" NKJ Lk. 5:21
And their scribes and the Pharisees complained against His disciples, saying, "Why do You eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?" NKJ Lk. 5:30
So the scribes and Pharisees watched Him closely, whether He would heal on the Sabbath, that they might find an accusation against Him. NKJ Lk. 6:7
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them." NKJ Lk. 11:44
And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, NKJ Lk. 11:53
And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." NKJ Lk. 15:2
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, NKJ Jn. 8:3
Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God." NKJ Acts 23:9

“scribes and Pharisee”. Short for….the religious elite. So far you are standing up for pharisees of old and the modern jew. Two people that hate Jesus. But someone like me, who wants to promote Jesus and his word above others is deemed a heretic. How backward can you be.

 

[Cnkw3]

Wrong verses. In John 5:24-25 Jesus is speaking to the living. In John 5:28-29 he is speaking about those who hear His voice while they are dead, "in the grave":


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Just as "HEAR" in John 5:24-25 means "obey what they hear", so that meaning exists in John 5:28. Same Greek words, same theme, only the audience is different. But the result for both is the same, life after choosing to obey Christ's voice.

NO! Hear means HEAR. In verse 24 he also adds…..believe. Those that “hear and believe”. It is “believe” that has to do with obedience. Bible belief is obedience to what God says.
In vs 28 he DOES NOT add the word “believe”. There is a big difference.
In one you hear and believe and will be saved.
In the other you just hear and come forth to be judged.
BIG difference!

 

[Alfred Persson]

You are back to your same old trick pony passages. It says “prison”. It does not say “hell”. If that is supposed to be hell then why doesn’t one translation of the Bible use the word hell? Ever think of that? Not one translation uses the word hell. The reason is the meaning of the passage has nothing to do with “hell”!

The Peshi tta translation of the NT does:

MGI 1 Peter 3:19 And he preached to those souls who were held captive in Sheol,

MRD 1 Peter 3:19 And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,

NOR 1 Peter 3:19 And he made proclamation to those souls which were kept in hold in the abodes of the departed;

 

[Cnkw3]

The Peshi tta translation of the NT does:

MGI 1 Peter 3:19 And he preached to those souls who were held captive in Sheol,

MRD 1 Peter 3:19 And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,

NOR 1 Peter 3:19 And he made proclamation to those souls which were kept in hold in the abodes of the departed;

Those arent Bibles. I dont know what they are? I just looked through 40+ and not one said Hell.
No rsv,nkjv,net,niv,KJV,YLT,nasb,ESV,etc.. None.

 

[Cnkw3]

The Peshi tta translation of the NT does:

MGI 1 Peter 3:19 And he preached to those souls who were held captive in Sheol,

MRD 1 Peter 3:19 And he preached to those souls, which were detained in Hades,

NOR 1 Peter 3:19 And he made proclamation to those souls which were kept in hold in the abodes of the departed;

This is like me pulling out the watchtower Bible, turning to John 1, and making the argument that Jesus is not God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

NO! Hear means HEAR. In verse 24 he also adds…..believe. Those that “hear and believe”. It is “believe” that has to do with obedience. Bible belief is obedience to what God says.
In vs 28 he DOES NOT add the word “believe”. There is a big difference.
In one you hear and believe and will be saved.
In the other you just hear and come forth to be judged.
BIG difference!

In John 5:24, those who obey Christ's word and believe, pass from death into life.

That exegesis is confirmed in Lexicons, for example " The Complete Word Study Dictionary" cited below.

AND as it’s the same Greek, same theme, only a different audience (living vs. dead in the grave), the meaning of "obey" is in both:



"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word (λόγον μου ἀκούων ) and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice (λόγον μου ἀκούων )
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)


(λόγον μου ἀκούων )

191. ἀκούω akoúō

…

(IV) To obey (Luke 10:16; 16:29, 31 [cf. John 5:24; 8:47; 18:37; Acts 3:22, 23; 4:19; 1 John 4:5, 6]; Sept.: Gen. 3:17; Ex. 16:20; Deut. 11:27; 2 Chr. 20:14; Is. 48:18). Here belongs the phrase “he who hath ears, let him hear,” i.e., give heed, obey (Matt. 11:15; 13:9, 13 [cf. the phrase, “he who has a mind” in Rev. 13:18 {a.t.}; see also Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 13:9; 17:9, “he who has wisdom” {a.t.}]). In the writings of John as spoken of God, meaning to heed, regard, i.e., to hear and answer prayer (John 9:31; 11:41, 42; 1 John 5:15; Sept.: Ps. 10:17, eisakoúō [1522], to listen to).-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Those arent Bibles. I dont know what they are? I just looked through 40+ and not one said Hell.
No rsv,nkjv,net,niv,KJV,YLT,nasb,ESV,etc.. None.

Those are English translations of the Aramaic versions of the New Testament, which are themselves translations of the original Greek [although those who believe in Aramaic Primacy would dispute that]

MGI NT Peshitta Translation (2006) Copyright (c) 2006 Janet Magiera

MRD Murdock Translation of the NT Peshitta (1851)

NOR Norton Translation of the NT Peshitta (1851)


However, its elementary deduction the "spirits in prison" are in a section of Hades/Sheol. Christ died and then in Spirit went to preach to them.

They weren't in heaven.

This is a no-brainer.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is like me pulling out the watchtower Bible, turning to John 1, and making the argument that Jesus is not God.

No it isn't. Aramaic versions are used throughout the world by Christians, and have been for centuries.

However, its elementary deduction the "spirits in prison" are in a section of Hades/Sheol. Christ died and then in Spirit went to preach to them.

They weren't in heaven.

This is a no-brainer.