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Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

The Translations I cited are excellent.

The WatchTower has put a spell on you. They add their own words to scripture, and that tricks unwary minds into accepting the entire as "the Word of God."

The Watchtower magazine that is peddled on every street corner, is witchcraft, sorcery.

Satan is seated among the demon spirits in the Watchtower Parthenon of "spirit guides", that is seen by their own testimony where they claim God has a spirit body like the angels.

Their idea is similar to modern day Spiritualists and other pagan religions that believe in a Chief god among a pantheon of lesser gods or angels:

There is no spell on me, i believe fact over error. Few bother checking to see what is true and what isnt. So to go along with the facts i shared about the Father is Jesus' God just like ours. Here are the undeniable facts of true God worship history

From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion, teach serve and worship-the Abrahamic God= a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)-That means while Jesus attended those places of worship was taught, served and worshipped a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah) as was EVERY bible writer.
The New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299-- The formulation one God in three persons, was not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith prior till the end of the 4th century)( 381 to be exact- a false god created at the first council of Constantinople-381 ce)--Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective( of God being a trinity)

A trinity does not exist--Every true follower in the bible served that single being God= undeniable fact of true God worship history. Not even to mention it is what Jesus actually taught as well. One cannot argue against Jesus and facts. I will start a thread-teachings from Jesus-in every translation on earth.
 
There is no spell on me, i believe fact over error. Few bother checking to see what is true and what isnt. So to go along with the facts i shared about the Father is Jesus' God just like ours. Here are the undeniable facts of true God worship history

From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion, teach serve and worship-the Abrahamic God= a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)-That means while Jesus attended those places of worship was taught, served and worshipped a single being God named-YHWH(Jehovah) as was EVERY bible writer.
The New Catholic encyclopedia, 1967, Vol XIV, Page 299-- The formulation one God in three persons, was not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith prior till the end of the 4th century)( 381 to be exact- a false god created at the first council of Constantinople-381 ce)--Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective( of God being a trinity)

A trinity does not exist--Every true follower in the bible served that single being God= undeniable fact of true God worship history. Not even to mention it is what Jesus actually taught as well. One cannot argue against Jesus and facts. I will start a thread-teachings from Jesus-in every translation on earth.
Great. Do that. But you avoided facts. You dismissed the scriptures I cited with argumentum ad hominem. That's what the Watchtower has trained you to do, evade facts by lying about the person or proof.

For example, you CLAIMED I CITED BAD TRANSLATIONS.

The Watchtower cites Ezekiel 18:4 to prove souls die when the body dies, but Ezekiel 18:21, regardless what translation you use, says repentant souls will LIVE when the body dies. THAT JWs do NOT believe. They don't believe Jehovah:

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:21 KJV)

Nothing wrong with the KJV translation of this verse. The Watchtower doesn't believe it, so they programmed you to say the translation is no good.

Prove it. Cite the Hebrew that was mistranslated. You can't because its not being mistranslated.



I also claim you are under the Watchtower's spell, that they used sorcery to effect total control over your mind, subverting its ability to think on its own.

Here is the proof. Notice how the Watchtower mixes in their words, and inserts themselves into "spiced and diced" scripture:


13 By means of “the faithful and discreet slave,” Jesus has built up a remarkable organization on earth to promote pure worship. How do you feel about that organization? In response, perhaps you think of the words of the apostle Peter, who said to Jesus: “Whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68) Where would any of us be today if we had not come in contact with Jehovah’s organization? Through it, Christ makes sure that we are well-fed spiritually. He also trains us to carry out our ministry effectively. Further, he helps us to put on “the new personality,” so that we are pleasing to Jehovah.—Eph. 4:24. -w22 July p. 11-13



Jehovah's Witnesses STUDY the Watchtower, and rarely look up the verses the Society has spliced and diced to make it appear they agree with the content of the article.

Over time, the unwary mind stops opening the Bible at all, they only read the Watchtower. The bible is just something they carry around to take verses out of context. AND doing this makes them believe they follow the Bible!

It is sorcery to mix the words of men with the words of God.

Notice how God associates this with Baalpeor and those who followed. Its a form of sorcery, it bewitches the mind confusing the word of men with the Word of God that has a power unto itself. That power is misdirected to confuse humans the words of men must also to be obeyed:

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you.
4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.
(Deut. 4:2-4 KJV)

When Christians cite scripture to prove what they say is correct, they separate it from their own words, so people can hear the Word of God undiminished.

Then God's Word is permitted to speak for itself and the person, after reviewing the context of the verse in the Bible itself, can decide for themselves if what is being taught, is correct according to the Word of God.
 
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Surely Omniscient God would not create if most of those who come into existence, are lost forever. If a man built a factory that lost over 90% of its product, he would be labeled a fool.

Did God have a sure fire plan that did not rely on humans for success? Could it be this simple, He makes all things work together to save His Beloved, every one of them:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)
Hi Alfred,

Who says that most are going to hell? There are over 2 billion believers around the world. Then in the tribulation we see that there is a great multitude that NO ONE CAN COUNT. (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

God is well able to convict and draw people to Himself.

regards, Marilyn.
 
Hi Alfred,

Who says that most are going to hell? There are over 2 billion believers around the world. Then in the tribulation we see that there is a great multitude that NO ONE CAN COUNT. (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

God is well able to convict and draw people to Himself.

regards, Marilyn.
I agree, not scripture. But your argument failed to prove the point, sometime this year there will be 8 billion people, so 2 billion is a 1/4th of that. And what about those who never heard the gospel of Christ, in BC days?
 
Great. Do that. But you avoided facts. You dismissed the scriptures I cited with argumentum ad hominem. That's what the Watchtower has trained you to do, evade facts by lying about the person or proof.

For example, you CLAIMED I CITED BAD TRANSLATIONS.

The Watchtower cites Ezekiel 18:4 to prove souls die when the body dies, but Ezekiel 18:21, regardless what translation you use, says repentant souls will LIVE when the body dies. THAT JWs do NOT believe. They don't believe Jehovah:

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:21 KJV)

Nothing wrong with the KJV translation of this verse. The Watchtower doesn't believe it, so they programmed you to say the translation is no good.

Prove it. Cite the Hebrew that was mistranslated. You can't because its not being mistranslated.



I also claim you are under the Watchtower's spell, that they used sorcery to effect total control over your mind, subverting its ability to think on its own.

Here is the proof. Notice how the Watchtower mixes in their words, and inserts themselves into "spiced and diced" scripture:


13 By means of “the faithful and discreet slave,” Jesus has built up a remarkable organization on earth to promote pure worship. How do you feel about that organization? In response, perhaps you think of the words of the apostle Peter, who said to Jesus: “Whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68) Where would any of us be today if we had not come in contact with Jehovah’s organization? Through it, Christ makes sure that we are well-fed spiritually. He also trains us to carry out our ministry effectively. Further, he helps us to put on “the new personality,” so that we are pleasing to Jehovah.—Eph. 4:24. -w22 July p. 11-13



Jehovah's Witnesses STUDY the Watchtower, and rarely look up the verses the Society has spliced and diced to make it appear they agree with the content of the article.

Over time, the unwary mind stops opening the Bible at all, they only read the Watchtower. The bible is just something they carry around to take verses out of context. AND doing this makes them believe they follow the Bible!

It is sorcery to mix the words of men with the words of God.

Notice how God associates this with Baalpeor and those who followed. Its a form of sorcery, it bewitches the mind confusing the word of men with the Word of God that has a power unto itself. That power is misdirected to confuse humans the words of men must also to be obeyed:

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you.
4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.
(Deut. 4:2-4 KJV)

When Christians cite scripture to prove what they say is correct, they separate it from their own words, so people can hear the Word of God undiminished.

Then God's Word is permitted to speak for itself and the person, after reviewing the context of the verse in the Bible itself, can decide for themselves if what is being taught, is correct according to the Word of God.


The facts of true God worship history and the teachings of Jesus back the JW teachers. There is no better backing. Your shared scriptures contradict both fact and Jesus to the core because your translations are filled with errors. Its you taught to believe all the errors over Fact and Jesus. Not by sorcery but by satans will instilled into your translations centuries ago.
 
I agree, not scripture. But your argument failed to prove the point, sometime this year there will be 8 billion people, so 2 billion is a 1/4th of that. And what about those who never heard the gospel of Christ, in BC days?

yes I thought so, (2 billion/8 billion)
- however remember the great multitude that no one can count. Immense.
- Then the 144,000 Israelis.
- Then those who turned to God and died a martyr in the trib.
- Then those who turned to God and went through the trib.
- Then those who were born in the millennium and followed God`s ways.
- Then those before the cross who `believed God for His promises.` They are the just men and women, the OT saints. (Heb. 11)
- Then those who never heard of God`s promises, or of Jesus, (before and after the cross), they are judged on how they lived according to their God given conscience. (Rev. 20: 12)

Glad God can keep track of them all. Marilyn.
 
yes I thought so, (2 billion/8 billion)
- however remember the great multitude that no one can count. Immense.
- Then the 144,000 Israelis.
- Then those who turned to God and died a martyr in the trib.
- Then those who turned to God and went through the trib.
- Then those who were born in the millennium and followed God`s ways.
- Then those before the cross who `believed God for His promises.` They are the just men and women, the OT saints. (Heb. 11)
- Then those who never heard of God`s promises, or of Jesus, (before and after the cross), they are judged on how they lived according to their God given conscience. (Rev. 20: 12)

Glad God can keep track of them all. Marilyn.
I congratulate you. That synthesis is more scriptural that most I've heard.

Although I don't believe anyone can inherit God's Kingdom apart from Christ, even if they obeyed their conscience because following one's conscience at best can only excuse (not merit one receive eternal life in God's Kingdom):

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom. 2:14-16 NKJ)

They wouldn't be punished, but entrance into the Kingdom is not the absence of punishment, its a treasure worth more than life itself:

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matt. 13:44 NKJ)

For anyone to enter God's Kingdom, they MUST go through the door of Christ and based on His merits:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn. 14:6 NKJ)

It is by grace we are saved, all of us, including those who never heard of Christ in this life. They will in the next, and like us, they must confess He is the Christ, the Son of God and put faith in His name for salvation. Saved Through faith, we are God's workmanship:

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph. 2:5-10 NKJ)

Therefore, The Lamb was slain "out of time", before the "foundation of the world" so the names of the living could be written in and the names of the dead excluded from the "book of life of the Lamb":

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)

So I anticipate many of the 8 billion left out in your synthesis, will actually be saved.

You might find my blog on this interesting:

 
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Hi Alfred,

we know that BECAUSE of Jesus` sacrifice, people are saved, however not all people who will be saved, KNOW that that is the reason.
 
Hi Alfred,

we know that BECAUSE of Jesus` sacrifice, people are saved, however not all people who will be saved, KNOW that that is the reason.
But I believe they eventually will:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

God couldn't judge the dead properly unless the Gospel was first preached to them. Then they could pay for their sins done in the flesh and repent and "live according to God" in the Spirit while in hell awaiting the resurrection of life.

Just as these spirits in prison became an antitype (like figure) to how the church is saved when we give the answer of a good conscience to His preaching, so also the dead who respond the same will be saved:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1 Pet. 3:18-21 NKJ)

Some foolishly believe Christ would preach doom to spirits in hell, as if they didn't already know they were doomed.

The ONLY way they are an antitype (like figure KJV) to how WE are saved by Christ's preaching, is that they also were saved by Christ's preaching, because like us they gave the answer of a good conscience before God.


 
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But I believe they eventually will:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

Just as these spirits in prison became an antitype (like figure) to how the church is saved when we give the answer of a good conscience to His preaching, so also the dead who respond the same will be saved:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1 Pet. 3:18-21 NKJ)

Some foolishly believe Christ would preach doom to spirits in hell, as if they didn't already know they were doomed.

The ONLY way they are an antitype (like figure KJV) to how WE are saved by Christ's preaching, is that they also were saved.
I would be very careful as to saying that when Jesus `preached` to the spirits in prison that some could be saved. Notice that it says `who formerly were disobedient.`
 
I would be very careful as to saying that when Jesus `preached` to the spirits in prison that some could be saved. Notice that it says `who formerly were disobedient.`
Not a literal translation:

20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pet. 3:20 NKJ)

544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo
Meaning: 1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with - Strong's Concordance

They formerly couldn't be convinced God would forgive their "abominable nature" (the image of God confused with the image of angels Gen. 6:2, 4), so they refused to heed Noah's preaching.

Because they were a "special case", Our LORD Jesus makes a "special trip" to the segregated prison in hell, to preach God really would forgive the sins of the angelic fathers and human mothers. These "men of renown" did nothing evil, but they just couldn't believe God would forgive the corruption of the image of God in man. Notice "corruption" is why God caused the flood:

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen. 6:11-13 NKJ)

So they had valid reasons to not believe Noah. And because they couldn't believe, they were "disobedient". But THAT translation is misleading. A word study of 544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo confirms they were "disobedient" because they "disbelieved":

Various translations:

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn. 3:36 NKJ)

who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; (1 Pet. 3:20 YLT) Young's Literal Translation

They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pet. 3:20 NJB)

This last is hyper literal

not-persuade-do sometime when from-out-receive the the god long-passion-ance in day Noah down-implement-be ark into which few this be eight soul through-safe through water (1 Pet. 3:20 BTGNT)


BTGNT The Transformation Greek New Testament (2014)
Copyright © 2010 by Jan Hoogland

The Concept of Transformation in the Transformational Greek New Testament.

The same event can be described in English and in biblical Greek with equal accuracy. Unfortunately, it does not follow that Greek as source can be translated into English as target with equal accuracy. In fact, loss of accuracy in the translation process is a very serious matter. That is because Greek grammar differs—greatly so—from English grammar and because the two-tiered structure of word meaning prevents its accurate transfer. Consequently, any translation suffers from a serious loss of accuracy, leaving the direct reading of the Greek text—barring further study—as the only way to understand it accurately.
The obvious solution to this problem is to learn Greek. In practice, however, this is not possible because biblical Greek is no longer spoken and its acquisition and maintenance requires too much effort for most people. Study of the translated text will provide a more accurate understanding of the Greek text, but existing study tools too often reflect the shortcomings of their writers. The large variety of opinions on the meaning of the Greek text motivates the amateur to form his own understanding, which is what transformation offers in a practical manner.
While translation aims to transfer the meaning of the Greek text to the English mind, transformation aims to connect the English mind with the Greek text. Transformation may be likened to a magic window through which we can read the Greek text without knowing Greek. It should be kept foremost in mind that a transform, by definition, is identical in content to the Greek text, no more, no less.
Transformation changes the Greek text into a form that allows the English mind to understand its grammatical features and word meanings. The process largely bypasses the need to learn Greek but its application is limited to a suitably and elaborately prepared Greek text. The method is designed for amateurs without time to learn Greek. Advanced transform readers will understand the text reasonably quickly, while beginning readers will be quite slow, but the acquired accuracy in understanding is basically the same in both cases.
 
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Not a literal translation:

20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pet. 3:20 NKJ)

544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo
Meaning: 1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded 1a) to refuse or withhold belief 1b) to refuse belief and obedience 2) not to comply with - Strong's Concordance

They formerly couldn't be convinced God would forgive their "abominable nature" (the image of God confused with the image of angels Gen. 6:2, 4), so they refused to heed Noah's preaching.

Because they were a "special case", Our LORD Jesus makes a "special trip" to the segregated prison in hell, to preach God really would forgive the sins of the angelic fathers and human mothers. These "men of renown" did nothing evil, but they just couldn't believe God would forgive the corruption of the image of God in man. Notice "corruption" is why God caused the flood:

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen. 6:11-13 NKJ)

So they had valid reasons to not believe Noah. And because they couldn't believe, they were "disobedient". But THAT translation is misleading. A word study of 544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo confirms they were "disobedient" because they "disbelieved":

Various translations:

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn. 3:36 NKJ)

who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; (1 Pet. 3:20 YLT) Young's Literal Translation

They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pet. 3:20 NJB)

not-persuade-do sometime when from-out-receive the the god long-passion-ance in day Noah down-implement-be ark into which few this be eight soul through-safe through water (1 Pet. 3:20 ATGNT)

Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
(1 Pet. 3:20 DRA)
Angels do NOT have sexual apparatus. Thus they could NOT procreate.
 
Angels do NOT have sexual apparatus. Thus they could NOT procreate.
When Christ said angels in heaven do not marry etc., He was talking about obedient angels in heaven, not fallen angels on earth.

Notice how Jude connects "going after strange flesh" in Sodom and Gomorrah with what the "angels" did "who did not keep their proper domain:"

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NKJ)

The Nephilim (fallen angels) were already on earth. Satan threw them to the earth after the Fall, to corrupt mankind and stop the birth of the woman's seed by corrupting the DNA of men, with that of angels (Gen. 3:15)

His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. (Rev. 12:4 NKJ)

God sent the Watchers (sons of God") to counter their evil workings among men. In a diabolical plot to "gain immortality" humans and demons conspired against the "sons of God". Porn 24-7 until some of them were seduced to leave their "proper abode" and take human wives:

1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. (Gen. 6:1-2 NKJ)

THAT is why God is so pissed off at MEN, with demons they conspired against the Sons of God sent to help them....seducing them to sin with 24-7 porn.

It was the first global demon-human conspiracy against God, a prefigure of what will happen in the END TIME.

It was thought "unfallen angels" would pass on immortality to their human offspring, because they were "unfallen".


That was the "work around" men devised to get around God's forbidding them access to the tree of life:

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "--
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24 NKJ)

Of course I wasn't there to know these things. I believe scripture implies these things, and you can check that out here:

 
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God`s word tells us that angels were CREATED. They cannot procreate.

`You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were CREATED.` (Ez. 28: 15)
 
God`s word tells us that angels were CREATED. They cannot procreate.

`You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were CREATED.` (Ez. 28: 15)
We were created, Adam and Eve created, they procreated.

[Its really amazing Christians believe angels can appear as anything, yet somehow they cannot be sexual. That does not compute.]

Early Christians believed angels sinned with human kind, its there in Jude and Peter and early church fathers. That was changed by the Catholic Church, their magisterium didn't believe angels had a "corporeal nature". It didn't' fit their myths about heaven:

The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 declared the nature of angels "spiritual". Most Protestants follow their unhistorical construct because of a logical fallacy known as a "hasty generalization" They confuse incorporeal spirits (Lk. 8:30) with corporeal angels (Rev. 12:7-9; Gen. 18:1-8).

These demons once had bodies and now are incorporeal spirits, that is the clear implication of this verse---spirits OF demons:

For they are spirits of demons, (Rev. 16:14 NKJ)
εἰσὶ γὰρ πνεύματα δαιμόνων (Rev. 16:14 SCR)

For more on this:
 
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Hi Alfred,

Angels were created. (Ez. 28: 15) NO lineage.
Angels are spirit beings. (Heb. 1: 14)
Angels do NOT marry. (Matt. 22: 30)

Marilyn.
 
You ignored my answer to you, and call me a one trick pony. Why didn't you respond to my refutation of your interpretation?

Christ used the words (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) to mean OBEDIENTLY HEAR, OBEY HIS VOICE

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Jn. 5:25 KJV)

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς), "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Same words, same context = same meaning.

The spiritually dead would become alive once they repented and believed Jesus' preaching:
The physically dead would become alive once they repented and believed Jesus' preaching

That means those IN THE GRAVE (=dead, in hell) can OBEY the voice they hear:


Those who did it when Jesus preached to them "shall live" rise to the resurrection of life.
Those who did it in the GRAVE when Jesus preached to them, "shall live" rise to the resurrection of life.

That is true whether they believed when Christ preached to them while still physically alive, or believed when Christ preaches to them while physically dead in the grave (1 Pet. 3:18-22; 4:5-6).

That is EXEGESIS. Not a one trick.

I proved you wrong.

Stop insulting me and either prove the exegesis incorrect, or admit you are wrong. That's the Christian thing to do, is it not?
”dead” does not always mean….in the grave. Why dont you include vs 24 with 25.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:25
You mean you can be “dead” but still be upright and breathing? Wow. Not according to you. Your one track mind has the word “dead” always mean…”in the grave”. When you include 24 with vs 25 and we see that the “dead” in vs 25 are those that WERE DEAD but after hearing have passed from DEATH TO LIFE which means they are no longer dead. They have been made alive. Born again. Quickened.
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:1
The 25 section starts with…the hour is coming and now is.
The next section in 28 says….the hour is coming (he doesn’t say…and now is). When all that are “in the grave”. See the difference? The ”dead” in vs 24,25 ARE NOT people who are “in the grave”.
The truth is….Man is “dead” in sin and now has the option to hear, believe and be can then be “made alive” or “quickened”. Then after being put in the grave, these made alive faithful people will be raised to everlasting life.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22
LIFE Is found “in Christ”! How does one get “into Christ”? They are baptized into Christ. Rom 6, Gal 3, 1 cor 12. So the only people who will be “Made alive” will be those that obey the gospel…hear believe and are baptized Mk 16:15,16. This WILL NOT happen after you die..
 
You can't draw an analogy to what doesn't exist.

For example, you can say "that tastes like chicken" because we know the taste of chicken. You can't say that tastes like 000 because 000 doesn't exist as something that can be tasted.

Therefore, the analogy proves salvation from hell exists.
No it doesn’t.
 
Context disproves that, the dead are the same (3498 νεκρός nekros) in both verses.

God judges the living AND the dead, not "the living and the living":

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead (3498 νεκρός nekros).
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead (3498 νεκρός nekros), that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

Peter speaks about dead people in verse 5, and continues to speak about dead people in verse 6.

In other words, how can God judge the dead for not obeying the gospel, if they never heard the gospel when alive. In the 1st century, those who heard the gospel perhaps was less than a million.
It says that God is “ready” to judge the those that are alive and those that are dead. This is true. At the second coming there will be both people that are in the grave and some that are still alive and they both will be lined up for judgment. Also when you read on in 1 pet 4 you see that Gods judgment will begin in his own house. These are people that have been made alive but not all will remain faithful. That is why he can say…
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1 Peter 4:17-18
Open your mind, study and get off your one track, false doctrine, pony.
 
That's ignores what Paul said, he specifically talks about Satan destroying that sinner's flesh.

Its irrelevant Paul later readmits the sinner into the congregation, after he repented. No doubt fearing destruction of his flesh by Satan had something to do with it.

The POINT is: Paul was willing to let that sinner die a horrible death, so he would repent and his "spirit be saved in the day of the LORD Jesus."


3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)
Horrible death? What death? You think Paul is asking them to kill the person? NO!
The only control a church would have over any convert would be to excommunicate. Thats it. You cant do anything else to another member of the body of Christ.
And, who will be saved? THE BODY. Eph 5:23. This is how a church is to ”deliver a one to satan“. If you are outside the body of Christ you are in the body of satan. There are only two places to live in this world.
 
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