Crushing the Spirit of grace under foot?

[jocor]

But you didn't answer my question. What must we do in order to continue in a relationship with Yeshua so we don't burn, as you well put it.

Yeshua taught the "burn" factor, not me.

We must continue to have faith in him and his atoning blood. Some things weaken our faith and other things strengthen it.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
​

Studying, understanding and walking in the teachings of the Word of Yahweh will strengthen our faith.

1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.​

Paul was so concerned that the brethren in Thessalonica might have lost their faith that he sent messengers to find out about them.

4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;​

We are living in the "latter times" and seducing spirits are very active. They will succeed in destroying the faith of some that are weak. To "depart from the faith" means they no longer believe Yeshua can or will save them. They have been deceived because the faith they had was weak through various means; lack of reading the Word, lack of a strong prayer life, loving the things of the world, giving heed to seducing spirits, etc. We are soon to enter the great tribulation. The saints will not be raptured before it comes. Now is the time to strengthen their faith, not weaken it by teaching they cannot be lost and giving them a false sense of security. We must endure until the end.

 

[DRS81]

lack of reading the Word, lack of a strong prayer life, loving the things of the world, giving heed to seducing spirits, etc.

But these are things to stay in fellowship with Yah, these things are not required to FIND God through salvation. Relationship and salvation is by faith. A sinner could have no knowledge of scripture and still be saved because of his faith and belief of who Jesus is. Jesus is the savior of the world, he's not just simply the judge. He saves people. To save something is to deliver something out of someone. Salvation is a gift FROM God. If God were to return the gift he would be considered an Indian giver. Is that what God is to you?

 

[jocor]

Salvation is a gift FROM God. If God were to return the gift he would be considered an Indian giver. Is that what God is to you?

It is not God returning or taking away the gift of salvation. It is the former believer throwing the gift back in Yahweh's face by trampling on the blood that saved him.

 

[DRS81]

It is not God returning or taking away the gift of salvation. It is the former believer throwing the gift back in Yahweh's face by trampling on the blood that saved him.

But that's the thing, a believer cannot become an unbeliever. They can't just wake up one day and the holy spirit is no longer in their body. You know what I mean?

 

[jocor]

But that's the thing, a believer cannot become an unbeliever. They can't just wake up one day and the holy spirit is no longer in their body. You know what I mean?

Do you have any Scripture stating that a believer cannot become an unbeliever?

Renouncing Yeshua is not something that happens overnight, but grieving the Holy Spirit away forever can happen instantaneously the moment we leave Yeshua. Just as it takes the seeds of truth much time to grow into a mature, fruitful tree, it takes time for the seeds Satan sows to mature into unbelief. I know of brethren that were strong in the faith until the seeds of anti-missionaries were sown in them. Years later they renounced Yeshua. An entire congregation was destroyed by those seeds. They are all living in the world without Yeshua to this day. They did not continue in the faith. The Holy Spirit was in them helping them to overcome, but their twisting of Paul's writings and lack of understanding of Messianic prophecies led to their loss of faith and ensuing destruction.

 

[DRS81]

(Edit: Post removed for multiple violations of ToS 2.7. Obadiah.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So we need to do self works to keep our salvation?

We need to continue to have faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ to the very end to be saved in the end. This faith in Christ that must continue to the very end has an expected and obligatory outcome. For example, John and James explain how helping others who are in need is an expected and obligatory expression of faith and love for God.

On the Day of Wrath the presence of saving faith will be measured by what it did, just as the case for unbelief will be made based on what it didn't do (Matthew 25:14-46 NASB).

 

[jonahmano]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

In other words, if we receive the truth that the sacrifice of Yeshua is for the remission of sins, but later reject that truth by renouncing Yeshua and his sacrificial blood, then we no longer have a sacrifice for our sins. We become an adversary of Yeshua and will live the rest of our lives fearing our coming judgment.

Why do you think that way? It can be this way. after receiving the knowledge of truth and we continue to sin then there ain't remaineth any sacrifice for sins because we are taking the blood of Christ for granted.

 

[jocor]

Why do you think that way? It can be this way. after receiving the knowledge of truth and we continue to sin then there ain't remaineth any sacrifice for sins because we are taking the blood of Christ for granted.

I base that on verse 29:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
​

It seems to me that such a person has come to the deadly conclusion that Yeshua's shed blood is not holy and is not able to sanctify or cleanse him of his sins. He once believed it was efficacious to his salvation, but now believes it is useless.

 

[jonahmano]

I base that on verse 29:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
​

It seems to me that such a person has come to the deadly conclusion that Yeshua's shed blood is not holy and is not able to sanctify or cleanse him of his sins. He once believed it was efficacious to his salvation, but now believes it is useless.

But verse 26 and 29 are well connected. How can you bring separate different meaning from verse 29. It's a fact that those who believe in Christ and leave Him in between are already destined for eternal death but the matter is those who still believe in Christ and take the blood of Christ for granted by continously sinning and not repenting therefore taking the blood of Christ for granted.

 

[Deborah13]

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,​

In other words, if we receive the truth that the sacrifice of Yeshua is for the remission of sins, but later reject that truth by renouncing Yeshua and his sacrificial blood, then we no longer have a sacrifice for our sins. We become an adversary of Yeshua and will live the rest of our lives fearing our coming judgment.

Do you think the Jews who rejected the Messiah after receiving the knowledge of the truth and returned to the temple lived the rest of their lives in fear of the coming judgment?
Or do you think that they believed that the temple blood was the holy sacrifice for sin and so reject the blood of Christ?

 

[Deborah13]

Correct. We have one opportunity to believe. If we later choose to disbelieve, there is no second chance to believe.
He will not leave us, but we can leave Him. By doing so, we will be cut off the natural olive tree that we were grafted onto.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ​

If we do not continue to believe, we will be cut off through unbelief.

And the very next verse says....
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The natural branches cut off because of unbelief can be grafted back in if they should not remain in unbelief.
I used to think that if one was cut off they would never want to return because the Holy Spirit would completely leave them and never draw them again. But this verse seems to say that is not so.

 

[jocor]

But verse 26 and 29 are well connected. How can you bring separate different meaning from verse 29. It's a fact that those who believe in Christ and leave Him in between are already destined for eternal death but the matter is those who still believe in Christ and take the blood of Christ for granted by continously sinning and not repenting therefore taking the blood of Christ for granted.

So, you interpret "sin wilfully" as meaning "continuously sinning"? I can see that view as well as long as the continuous sin is done rebelliously or obstinately. I don't think someone who is having difficulty overcoming the flesh, but desires to overcome, is included in that category. I view "sin wilfully" as the sin of unbelief; to wilfully choose to no longer believe in Yeshua and his atoning sacrifice.

 

[jocor]

Do you think the Jews who rejected the Messiah after receiving the knowledge of the truth and returned to the temple lived the rest of their lives in fear of the coming judgment?
Or do you think that they believed that the temple blood was the holy sacrifice for sin and so reject the blood of Christ?

Can you give me a verse so I know exactly what you are referring to?

 

[jocor]

And the very next verse says....
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The natural branches cut off because of unbelief can be grafted back in if they should not remain in unbelief.
I used to think that if one was cut off they would never want to return because the Holy Spirit would completely leave them and never draw them again. But this verse seems to say that is not so.

The difference is, the Jews that were cut off in unbelief were never truly enlightened or covered by the blood of Yeshua. Therefore, they can choose to believe and be grafted back in. However, a true blood washed believer that chooses to disbelieve cannot be grafted in again.

 

[Deborah13]

Can you give me a verse so I know exactly what you are referring to?

Actually your response to jonahmano, #93, just before this one to me, answered both of my questions sufficiently.
I agree with what you said to him. That is how I understand willful sin, too.
I didn't always understand this though. Strong's definition of the Greek word was very helpful.
Thank you for responding.

 

[Deborah13]

The difference is, the Jews that were cut off in unbelief were never truly enlightened or covered by the blood of Yeshua. Therefore, they can choose to believe and be grafted back in. However, a true blood washed believer that chooses to disbelieve cannot be grafted in again.

I suspect you are correct about this in the case in Romans, of the Jews at that time.

However, I don't think Hebrews 10:26, means that one cannot repent and return. I think that it just means that if one rejects the blood of Christ they have no where else to turn for atonement.
The reason I believe this is that this teaching was for the Jews. The author, I believe Paul, is telling these persecuted Jews that had received Christ, that if they reject the blood of Christ and returned to the blood of bulls and goats (common blood), they will no longer be able to receive atonement there because that system of the temple was soon to fade away. So what they had relied on in the past was of no use to them. All they could expect from it would be judgement.

 

[jocor]

I suspect you are correct about this in the case in Romans, of the Jews at that time.

However, I don't think Hebrews 10:26, means that one cannot repent and return. I think that it just means that if one rejects the blood of Christ they have no where else to turn for atonement.
The reason I believe this is that this teaching was for the Jews. The author, I believe Paul, is telling these persecuted Jews that had received Christ, that if they reject the blood of Christ and returned to the blood of bulls and goats (common blood), they will no longer be able to receive atonement there because that system of the temple was soon to fade away. So what they had relied on in the past was of no use to them. All they could expect from it would be judgement.

If a believer rejects the blood of Messiah, they become the subject of Hebrews 6:4-8:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.​

 

[Deborah13]

If a believer rejects the blood of Messiah, they become the subject of Hebrews 6:4-8:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.​

Now this is the one that I too see what you were saying. This is the one that seems to say to me that if one were to reject Christ they cannot be renewed again.
It says, "renew them again unto repentance". Which seems to say to me that they will not repent of this unbelief. So why will they not repent of unbelief? All I can determine is that the Holy Spirit withdraws and will not draw them again.
If that is true then they won't want to repent. Their state of unbelief is permanent.

By the way this was the verse that stumped the Calvinist, Charles Spurgeon. He didn't try to say that these people were not really saved. He said he believed that they were.

 

[jonahmano]

So, you interpret "sin wilfully" as meaning "continuously sinning"? I can see that view as well as long as the continuous sin is done rebelliously or obstinately. I don't think someone who is having difficulty overcoming the flesh, but desires to overcome, is included in that category. I view "sin wilfully" as the sin of unbelief; to wilfully choose to no longer believe in Yeshua and his atoning sacrifice.

Sinning willfully is in one way continuously sinning because you did a sin willfully and continuously to satisfy your flesh. I don't think it goes your way because those who have tasted Christ and want to leave him in between are already destined to die eternally and there is nothing to concentrate so much on such kind of people. I very well understand that verse 29 speaks about those who sin willfully as in verse 26 taking the blood of Jesus Christ for granted. It's like commit a sin on day 1 and on day 2 say by the blood of Christ I am cleansed and on the third day commit the same sin and on the 4th day claim the blood of Jesus Christ so in this way they are taking the blood of Christ granted.
.