Crushing the Spirit of grace under foot?

[Deborah13]

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Yeshua the Messiah might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our guardian to bring us unto the Messiah, that we might be justified by faith.​

It is the law, in particular, the transgression of it (sin) and its ensuing bondage, that brings us to Messiah for deliverance and justification. He died so our sins could be cleansed/forgiven and so we could be made righteous/justified. That is the primary reason one would receive Yeshua as Savior (IMHO).

Believe it or not there are people who come to the knowledge of Christ as Savior and Lord without knowing anything that the Law you speak of says.
KJV
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

So those who, unlike Paul, who were not raised in the Law of Moses, when they heard the gospel message they changed their minds about who this man called Jesus really was. God loved them so much He would send His Son who would lay down His life for them. The goodness of God was expressed through the Son.
Even Saul who walked perfectly in the righteous Law of Moses did not see the sin in persecuting and killing of those in Christ. He believed that what he was doing was for God.
But when he was confronted by the righteousness of Christ he repented.

 

[DRS81]

(Edited. ToS 2.7: 2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.. Obadiah)

Heb 10:39 Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-39.htm
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition,.... There is a drawing back which is not unto perdition; persons may be attended with much unbelief, may be very cold and indifferent to Gospel ordinances, may fall into great sins, and may greatly backslide, and yet be recovered, as David, Peter, and others: and there is a drawing back to perdition; when Christ is rejected as the alone Saviour; when he is not held to as the head; when false doctrines and damnable heresies are given into; and when men draw back, and never return, nor are they, nor can they be returned, and their apostasy is total, and final: but true believers do not, and cannot draw back in this sense; because they are held fast in the arms, and with the cords of everlasting love, are chosen of God unto salvation, are given unto Christ, and secured in him; they are redeemed and purchased by him; they are united to him, and built upon him; they are interested in his prayers and preparations, and are his jewels, and his portion; they are regenerated, sanctified, inhabited, and sealed by the Spirit of God, and have the promises and power of God, on their side.

But of them that believe to the saving of the soul; or "of faith, to the salvation of the soul"; not of faith of miracles, nor of an historical faith; but of that faith, which is the faith of God's elect, is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; by which a soul sees Christ, goes to him, lays holds on him, commits all to him, and expects all from him: this stands opposed to drawing back; for by faith a man lives, walks, and stands; and with this is connected the salvation of the soul, as opposed to perdition; not as though it is a cause of salvation, but as a means of God's appointing to receive the blessings of salvation, and which is entirely consistent with the grace of God; and since salvation and faith are inseparably connected together, so that he that has the one shall have the other, it follows, that true believers can never perish. The nature and excellency of this grace is largely treated of in the following chapter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believe it or not there are people who come to the knowledge of Christ as Savior and Lord without knowing anything that the Law you speak of says.
KJV
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

So those who, unlike Paul, who were not raised in the Law of Moses, when they heard the gospel message they changed their minds about who this man called Jesus really was. God loved them so much He would send His Son who would lay down His life for them. The goodness of God was expressed through the Son.
Even Saul who walked perfectly in the righteous Law of Moses did not see the sin in persecuting and killing of those in Christ. He believed that what he was doing was for God.
But when he was confronted by the righteousness of Christ he repented.

But surely you can see in the passage that everybody comes to God through the law--the knowledge of sin--whether they actually know about it as 'the Law of Moses', or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(Edited. ToS 2.7: 2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.. Obadiah)

Please don't turn this into a OSAS thread, lol.

The point the author is making is, people who have faith are saved, not destroyed. People who do not have faith are not saved. Whether or not they had faith, and then did not, is not the point. The point is, people who have faith are saved. People who do not have faith are destroyed.

You seem to be suggesting that the author is saying people who have faith don't shrink back from that faith. If that's true, why does the author use this letter to warn these saved believers to not shrink back, or else be destroyed? Obviously, he does not want them to change from people who faith and who are saved to people who do not have faith and are destroyed.

(Edited. ToS 2.7: 2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.. Obadiah)

Amen. I have yet to hear the suggestion from anyone that this is not true. What was in contention in the OSAS thread was whether or not you will stay that way.

Heb 10:39 Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-39.htm
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition,.... There is a drawing back which is not unto perdition; persons may be attended with much unbelief, may be very cold and indifferent to Gospel ordinances, may fall into great sins, and may greatly backslide, and yet be recovered, as David, Peter, and others: and there is a drawing back to perdition; when Christ is rejected as the alone Saviour; when he is not held to as the head; when false doctrines and damnable heresies are given into; and when men draw back, and never return, nor are they, nor can they be returned, and their apostasy is total, and final: but true believers do not, and cannot draw back in this sense; because they are held fast in the arms, and with the cords of everlasting love, are chosen of God unto salvation, are given unto Christ, and secured in him; they are redeemed and purchased by him; they are united to him, and built upon him; they are interested in his prayers and preparations, and are his jewels, and his portion; they are regenerated, sanctified, inhabited, and sealed by the Spirit of God, and have the promises and power of God, on their side.

But of them that believe to the saving of the soul; or "of faith, to the salvation of the soul"; not of faith of miracles, nor of an historical faith; but of that faith, which is the faith of God's elect, is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; by which a soul sees Christ, goes to him, lays holds on him, commits all to him, and expects all from him: this stands opposed to drawing back; for by faith a man lives, walks, and stands; and with this is connected the salvation of the soul, as opposed to perdition; not as though it is a cause of salvation, but as a means of God's appointing to receive the blessings of salvation, and which is entirely consistent with the grace of God; and since salvation and faith are inseparably connected together, so that he that has the one shall have the other, it follows, that true believers can never perish. The nature and excellency of this grace is largely treated of in the following chapter.

Well, Mr. Gill, since we know the blood that sanctified these believers is the blood of Christ, and the author warns them not to shrink back from faith in that blood, or be destroyed, we know that what you say here is suspect and open to honest Biblical scrutiny.

 

[DRS81]

Well, Mr. Gill, since we know the blood that sanctified these believers is the blood of Christ, and the author warns them not to shrink back from faith in that blood, or be destroyed, we know that what you say here is suspect and open to honest Biblical scrutiny.

Ok, let's say hypothetically I change my belief on Heb 10:29 and say that it is speaking of believers. Please read.....

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary- http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
10:26-31 The exhortations against apostacy and to perseverance, are urged by many strong reasons. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour; despise and resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life. Of this destruction God gives some notorious sinners, while on earth, a fearful foreboding in their consciences, with despair of being able to endure or to escape it. But what punishment can be sorer than to die without mercy? We answer, to die by mercy, by the mercy and grace which they have despised. How dreadful is the case, when not only the justice of God, but his abused grace and mercy call for vengeance! All this does not in the least mean that any souls who sorrow for sin will be shut out from mercy, or that any will be refused the benefit of Christ's sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out.

 

[jocor]

(Quoting John Gill): "it follows, that true believers can never perish."

Of course "true believers" can never perish. That is because they believe. Heb 10:29 is addressing the person who no longer believes. He has renounced Yeshua and no longer has Yeshua's sacrifice for sins. If Heb 10:26-29 cannot happen to believers, what is the purpose of giving us such a warning?

Here is Gill on Hebrews 10:26b:

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion; but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation, as follows.

 

[jocor]

Ok, let's say hypothetically I change my belief on Heb 10:29 and say that it is speaking of believers. Please read.....

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary- http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
10:26-31 The exhortations against apostacy and to perseverance, are urged by many strong reasons. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Saviour; despise and resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and despise and renounce the gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life. Of this destruction God gives some notorious sinners, while on earth, a fearful foreboding in their consciences, with despair of being able to endure or to escape it. But what punishment can be sorer than to die without mercy? We answer, to die by mercy, by the mercy and grace which they have despised. How dreadful is the case, when not only the justice of God, but his abused grace and mercy call for vengeance! All this does not in the least mean that any souls who sorrow for sin will be shut out from mercy, or that any will be refused the benefit of Christ's sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out.

It is true that in no way will Yeshua cast out those that come to him, but those who come to him can cast themselves out by no longer believing in him.

 

[DRS81]

but those who come to him can cast themselves out by no longer believing in him.

Wrong. It's impossible for a believer to stop believing in the deity of Christ.

They can stop believing in what God is doing for them, but they will die knowing Jesus is God deity. They will die with the holy spirit in them.

 

[Deborah13]

But surely you can see in the passage that everybody comes to God through the law--the knowledge of sin--whether they actually know about it as 'the Law of Moses', or not.

Did Saul who had the Law, the knowledge of sin, come to the knowledge of Christ through the Law?
If so, please tell how.

 

[jocor]

Believe it or not there are people who come to the knowledge of Christ as Savior and Lord without knowing anything that the Law you speak of says.
KJV
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

They may not know what the Law says, but they know they have sinned (transgressed the law) and need a Savior.

So those who, unlike Paul, who were not raised in the Law of Moses, when they heard the gospel message they changed their minds about who this man called Jesus really was. God loved them so much He would send His Son who would lay down His life for them. The goodness of God was expressed through the Son.
Even Saul who walked perfectly in the righteous Law of Moses did not see the sin in persecuting and killing of those in Christ. He believed that what he was doing was for God.
But when he was confronted by the righteousness of Christ he repented.

Saul was blinded for three days. He knew why because Yeshua told him he was persecuting him. He had three days to understand that it was his sin of persecution of innocent people that led to his blindness. He repented and received Yeshua.

 

[jocor]

Wrong. It's impossible for a believer to stop believing in the deity of Christ.

They can stop believing in what God is doing for them, but they will die knowing Jesus is God deity. They will die with the holy spirit in them.

Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit away permanently through unbelief in Messiah as their atoning sacrifice. The deity issue has nothing to do with this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did Saul who had the Law, the knowledge of sin, come to the knowledge of Christ through the Law?
If so, please tell how.

Besides what Jocor said, Paul died the death that sin delivers to everyone through the law before they are then brought to life in Christ. That's the initial role of law in salvation.

"11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good,so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful." (Romans 7:11-13 NASB)

A gospel of salvation from the condemnation of sin is meaningless if you don't first know that you are condemned...and that you can't be righteous enough to earn a formal declaration of righteousness from God.

 

[Deborah13]

Besides what Jocor said, Paul died the death that sin delivers to everyone through the law before they are then brought to life in Christ. That's the initial role of law in salvation.

"11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good,so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful." (Romans 7:11-13 NASB)

A gospel of salvation from the condemnation of sin is meaningless if you don't first know that you are condemned...and that you can't be righteous enough to earn a formal declaration of righteousness from God.

Jethro, I said it was not sin consciousness that CAUSED me to repent (change my mind about sinning).
What CAUSED me to repent about sin was the love of God and the knowledge of knowing who Jesus was and what He had done or repenting (changing my mind) about who Christ was and what He had done and what the Father had done.

I knew the 10 Commandments long before I was saved but that did not CAUSE me to repent (change my mind) about disobeying them. It took the love of God His grace through the Holy Spirit showing me the Risen Lord, the gospel message of His love to change my mind about sin.

Maybe you can't understand what I am saying because your experience with the Lord when you got saved was very different than mine.

 

[DRS81]

Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit away permanently through unbelief in Messiah as their atoning sacrifice.

No, they can't jocor. We're only believing once here..

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (NIV)

Heb 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." (NIV)

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (NIV)

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luke 20:35-36 NKJ)

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV) - Whoever believes in his name.

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I said it was not sin consciousness that CAUSED me to repent (change my mind about sinning).
What CAUSED me to repent about sin was the love of God and the knowledge of knowing who Jesus was and what He had done or repenting (changing my mind) about who Christ was and what He had done and what the Father had done.

I knew the 10 Commandments long before I was saved but that did not CAUSE me to repent (change my mind) about disobeying them. It took the love of God His grace through the Holy Spirit showing me the Risen Lord, the gospel message of His love to change my mind about sin.

Maybe you can't understand what I am saying because your experience with the Lord when you got saved was very different than mine.

Your experience is different than mine. I repented before I heard the gospel (tried to anyway, lol).

Along with knowing I was a sinner (according to the Ten C's) I knew that I was condemned because of that sin (many argue that their sin, when they learn about it, should not, and does not condemn them). I knew in my heart that I could not continue in my sin and expect to go to be with God when I died. So I set out to try to stop sinning--I repented. Well, every time I turned to God in repentance it only lasted to 10:00 in the morning, lol. Which only increased the weight of my condemnation. In time I realized I can't get from here to there.

Then I started listening to a Preacher who taught that this God who I wanted to make peace with wanted to help me, not condemn me. He taught about being in relationship with God instead of trying to relate to God through the effort of 'religion'. And that how you come into that relationship is to throw yourself on the mercy of God and admit you are condemned by your sin and can't do anything about it. Finally, after listening to him for about six months, I did that. I was changed right then and there. I was a new person. I've been growing up into that new person ever since.

I think it's because I had this dramatic salvation experience that I'm well rooted in faith. I know there are other believers who don't have this kind of a salvation experience, the experience of the tax collector who comes to God in the desperation of the condemnation he can do nothing about (Luke 18:13-14 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." (NIV)

The author is quoting Deuteronomy. God said this to the Israelites. The same Israelites he later divorced and sent away because of their infidelity. They left him first.

The point is, it doesn't mean what you are insisting it does. It's not a 'no matter what' statement.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Almost missed this one:

Ok, let's say hypothetically I change my belief on Heb 10:29 and say that it is speaking of believers. Please read.....

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary- http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
[...]
But what punishment can be sorer than to die without mercy? We answer, to die by mercy, by the mercy and grace which they have despised. How dreadful is the case, when not only the justice of God, but his abused grace and mercy call for vengeance! All this does not in the least mean that any souls who sorrow for sin will be shut out from mercy, or that any will be refused the benefit of Christ's sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out.

(Text made red by me)

If I understand the point Dr. Gill is trying to make, the Bible says otherwise:

"10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.' 12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.' " (Matthew 24:10-12 NASB)

"15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:15-17 NASB)

Clearly these illustrate how souls will sorrow over sin, but who will be refused the mercy of God and benefit of Christ, but who are willing to accept these blessings. But, if I understand what Dr. Gill is saying, he is insisting they will be saved, not cast away.

 

[DRS81]

But, if I understand what Dr. Gill is saying, he is insisting they will be saved, not cast away.

This is from Matthew Henry's commentary, not Gill's.
Matthew commentary says 'Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out.'
Commentary didn't say cast away, he said he will not cast OUT.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is from Matthew Henry's commentary, not Gill's.

Oh, my bad.

Matthew commentary says 'Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out.'
Commentary didn't say cast away, he said he will not cast OUT.

That's the same thing in my mind. Just change what I said in my post to cast 'out'.

 

[DRS81]

Jethro Bodine Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,