Data On The Trinity

[Free]

So let's get this in perspective.... Can the Word (Logos) made Flesh.... Have a God?

Remember...Jesus spoke the Logos(word) Jesus is not the word.... so how is the word made flesh and have a God???

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos?

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

How can God have a God???

" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Pay attention Free.... Who gave Jesus His revelation??? Himself the Logos(word) or His God???

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Your not seeing.... On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that you could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born.

now read again....
John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos?

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

Paul

Context determines meaning. This is especially important to keep in mind when we speak of Jesus, as words or phrases (Son of God, for example) have a different meaning when applied to him than when applied to others. The whole point of John's prologue (1:1-18) is to state who the Word is. So, let's look a bit more closely at 1:1.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

The word "was" is the Greek en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and denotes a continuous action in the past. That is, when the beginning began (creation), the Word was already in existence; it is absolute existence, eternal preexistence.

Then when we look at "with God," it is the Greek pros that is translated as "with." But that doesn't convey the full meaning; it isn't merely speaking of being together or near. It expresses direction towards as in relationship and communion, implying intimacy.

"Was God" means that the Word was divine in nature. It can never mean "a god" or another "God," as both imply polytheism. Again, this is about the logos, who the logos is, not who God is.

Even apart from the Greek, if logos is simply spoken words, then none of John 1:1 makes sense, but the Greek makes it all the more clear. It is very difficult to see how spoken words could have existed for eternity past or how they can be said to be in intimate relationship with God or how they can be said to be divine in nature. Only God has existed for eternity past, only a person could be in intimate relationship with another, and only God is divine in nature.

I also noticed that you completely ignored Rev 19:13 (previously misquoted as 19:3), "He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God." It simply cannot get any clearer than that.

 

[Free]

As the Riddler would say on Batman... give me your next verse.

Why a next verse when you haven't finished addressing John 10:30? We are already discussing this and I have asked you a question which you have not answered. I have also made another point which you have not addressed. We cannot move on until we have settled the meaning of this verse.

 

[Peterlag]

Why a next verse when you haven't finished addressing John 10:30? We are already discussing this and I have asked you a question which you have not answered. I have also made another point which you have not addressed. We cannot move on until we have settled the meaning of this verse.

I don't see what further we need to discuss regarding this verse. It means noting about a Trinity. It's just a simple statement like the one I made to my boss yesterday when I said the company and me are one. And he knew I was referring to both the company and I want the same floor clean.

 

[Free]

I don't see what further we need to discuss regarding this verse. It means noting about a Trinity.

If you think there is nothing left to discuss, then I can see that discussion with you about anything isn't going to go anywhere--you're right and that's all there is to it. That is really too bad.

It's just a simple statement like the one I made to my boss yesterday when I said the company and me are one. And he knew I was referring to both the company and I want the same floor clean.

It is nothing like that--you are completely ignoring the context of that verse. The points I raised show serious issues with your understanding of it and you are not even bothering to address them.

 

[Peterlag]

If you think there is nothing left to discuss, then I can see that discussion with you about anything isn't going to go anywhere--you're right and that's all there is to it. That is really too bad.


It is nothing like that--you are completely ignoring the context of that verse. The points I raised show serious issues with your understanding of it and you are not even bothering to address them.

You have to have intelligent subjects to discuss and so far I have not seen any solid data coming from you folks other than spinning and twisting. If you want solid evidence then look at this...


There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of a verse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1 Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

 

[Free]

You have to have intelligent subjects to discuss and so far I have not seen any solid data coming from you folks other than spinning and twisting.

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.

If you want solid evidence then look at this...


There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of a verse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1 Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Your "solid evidence" appears to be solidly deficient in taking into account all that the Bible reveals about the Holy Spirit.

 

[pierac]

Please do not yell at others in which large bold print usually means in discussions.

Everyone has a view and points they try to make within discussing scripture on the Trinity. No one can completely understand the Trinity unless they use the full context of all the scripture, especially where Jesus has said He and the Father are one, I AM, He is Alpha and Omega.

I know I have given these scriptures a couple times in here, but I would hope that you and everyone would go read and study all of them that say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God's Spirit given to us in various ways.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

Using bold is not yelling... It's making a point that need to be addressed!

So let's go with your comment... where Jesus has said He and the Father are one....
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one." One what??? You assume one being... but that is not what Jesus said!

Joh 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

You see.... Jesus is trying to teach you something.... Jesus is praying to his God that his disciples will be as one as Jesus and his God are one.... IN UNITY!!! You must have missed that?

Now... Let the Spirit of God within me show you about Alpha and Omega!

I am the Alpha and the Omega.
This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

God can not die... so read that verse again.... "for his glory"...

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

I'm trying to help you see.... You can not be God... and then claim to have one!!!
Paul

 

[Peterlag]

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.


Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Your "solid evidence" appears to be solidly deficient in taking into account all that the Bible reveals about the Holy S

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.


Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Your "solid evidence" appears to be solidly deficient in taking into account all that the Bible reveals about the Holy Spirit.

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.


Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Here's John 10:33... Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine."

 

[Peterlag]

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.


Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Your "solid evidence" appears to be solidly deficient in taking into account all that the Bible reveals about the Holy Spirit.

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.


Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Your "solid evidence" appears to be solidly deficient in taking into account all that the Bible reveals about the Holy Spirit.

More on John 10:33... Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."

 

[jaybo]

John 17:20-22, “I am not praying only on their behalf, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their testimony that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one—" NET

This is all that one needs to know about the oneness of God the Father, Jesus, God's son, and believers.

 

[Peterlag]

John 17:20-22, “I am not praying only on their behalf, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their testimony that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one—" NET

This is all that one needs to know about the oneness of God the Father, Jesus, God's son, and believers.

Looks good to me.

 

[Peterlag]

So, me asking you if a son is of the same nature as his father just isn't intelligent enough for you to answer?

Two points on John 10:30 that you continue to ignore, one based on an additional statement you made:

1) A son is always of the same nature as his father; it cannot be otherwise.
2) Your understanding of the verse does nothing to explain why the Jews equated Jesus’s claim with him calling himself God, for which they were going to stone him (for blasphemy).

You think the subjects so far aren't intelligent, yet you haven't shown you understand some fairly simple things.


Solid evidence of what? There is nothing solid in this cursory study of the Holy Spirit. There is some fallacious question begging but no assertions are proven. Here are quite a number of other things you don't mention:

The Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are actions of personal agency. There are still other things we need to look at and consider:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Matt 12:31-32--blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, while blasphemy against Jesus is not.

Matt 28:19--singular name, three persons, one God.

You seem to think that the Holy Spirit is God, yet interestingly, the Holy Spirit is not only referred to as the Spirit of God, but also the Spirit of Christ or the Son (Rom 8:9; Phil 1:19; Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:11). This shows the nearness and intimacy of the three persons.

So, Jesus mentions "Helper," or "advocate," as in 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our advocate with the Father. Whether it is "Helper," "Comforter," or "Advocate," these all speak of person agency. Regardless, you seem to be arguing that the Holy Spirit is God, which would be the Father, so why would Jesus say that the Father is our advocate and John say that Jesus is our advocate with the Father? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it does make sense if the Holy Spirit is a person. Then Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit is "another Advocate," just as John says Jesus is an advocate. "Another" is generally one that is similar but not the same.

Your "solid evidence" appears to be solidly deficient in taking into account all that the Bible reveals about the Holy Spirit.

Here's more on the "one" subject that someone else posted here and I quote...

John 17:20-22, “I am not praying only on their behalf, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their testimony that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one—" NET

 

[for_his_glory]

Using bold is not yelling... It's making a point that need to be addressed!

So let's go with your comment... where Jesus has said He and the Father are one....
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one." One what??? You assume one being... but that is not what Jesus said!

Joh 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

You see.... Jesus is trying to teach you something.... Jesus is praying to his God that his disciples will be as one as Jesus and his God are one.... IN UNITY!!! You must have missed that?

Now... Let the Spirit of God within me show you about Alpha and Omega!

I am the Alpha and the Omega.
This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.

Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

God can not die... so read that verse again.... "for his glory"...

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

I'm trying to help you see.... You can not be God... and then claim to have one!!!
Paul

Well, like I said, you have to take in the full context of scripture in order to understand even one lone verse at times and that is why I gave all those scriptural references so we can study the full context, but even then it's to far above our heads to get it 100% right.

I really do not have more to give on this topic as I have given my all to it so time for me to move on.

 

[pierac]

Well, like I said, you have to take in the full context of scripture in order to understand even one lone verse at times and that is why I gave all those scriptural references so we can study the full context, but even then it's to far above our heads to get it 100% right.

I really do not have more to give on this topic as I have given my all to it so time for me to move on.

Well, Paul told us...

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

That's how the Body of Christ's works.... No single person has the whole truth... we must seek the parts from other members of the body of Christ!

Paul

 

[jaybo]

Well, Paul told us...

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

That's how the Body of Christ's works.... No single person has the whole truth... we must seek the parts from other members of the body of Christ!

Paul

The message that you quoted was not written by me.

 

[Peterlag]

You keep quoting John out of context.... John tells you why He wrote his book!!!!

Note the context!!!

NET BIBLE Joh 20:31 But these59 are recorded60 so that you may believe61 that Jesus is the Christ,62 the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.63

NASB Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Christ.... is a person annointed BY GOD... not God!

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.


Unity is being annointed by God!!!
Paul

More on the Holy Spirit...

Part 1 of 3

The words “HOLY SPIRIT” in the Bible are primarily used in two very different ways: One way is to refer to God Himself and the other is referring to God’s nature that He gives to people. God is holy and is spirit and therefore “the Holy Spirit” with a capital “H” and a capital “S” is one of the many “names” or designations for God. God gives His holy spirit nature to people as a gift and when HOLY SPIRIT is used that way it should be translated as the “holy spirit” with a lowercase “h” and a lowercase “s.” The Bible says there is one God, and one Lord, who is the man Jesus Christ; and one gift of the holy spirit. Most Christians are aware that the original manuscripts of the Bible were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. However, it's not well known that Hebrew and Aramaic do not have upper-case and lower-case letters, but rather they just have one form for their letters.

Greek does have upper and lower-case letters, but the early Greek manuscripts were all written with only upper-case letters. Therefore, the early manuscripts had no such thing as the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because what was always written was the "HOLY SPIRIT." The capital or lower-case letters are always a translator’s interpretation whenever we read “Holy Spirit” or “holy spirit” or “Spirit” or “spirit” in the English Bible. The difference is usually due to the theology of the translator. The bottom line is we cannot know from the Hebrew or Greek texts whether the Author meant the “Holy Spirit” or the “holy spirit” because we must decide based on the context and scope of Scripture whether the reference being made is to God or God’s gift.

There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of a verse is God.

 

[Peterlag]

You keep quoting John out of context.... John tells you why He wrote his book!!!!

Note the context!!!

NET BIBLE Joh 20:31 But these59 are recorded60 so that you may believe61 that Jesus is the Christ,62 the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.63

NASB Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Christ.... is a person annointed BY GOD... not God!

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.


Unity is being annointed by God!!!
Paul

More on the Holy Spirit...

Part 2 of 3
None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1 Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

God put His gift of the “holy spirit” or the “spirit” on as many people as He deemed necessary in the Old Testament, and we see this when we look at how God took the spirit that was upon Moses and put it upon the 70 elders of Israel. However, today everyone who makes Jesus Christ their Lord receives the indwelling gift of the holy spirit and that's why Peter on the Day of Pentecost quoted the prophecy in Joel that said God would “pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Many scholars admit the concept of the Trinity that also includes reference to the "Holy Spirit” as an independent “Person” cannot be found in the Old Testament. The Jews to whom the Old Testament was given did not recognize any such being. It's a well-known historical fact that “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone,” was the cry of Israel. No verse or context openly states or even directly infers that there is a separate “Person” called “the Holy Spirit."

 

[Peterlag]

You keep quoting John out of context.... John tells you why He wrote his book!!!!

Note the context!!!

NET BIBLE Joh 20:31 But these59 are recorded60 so that you may believe61 that Jesus is the Christ,62 the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.63

NASB Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Christ.... is a person annointed BY GOD... not God!

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.


Unity is being annointed by God!!!
Paul

More on the Holy Spirit

Part 3 of 3
Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lower case such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

One of the ways we know that “pneuma hagion” often refers to the gift of God’s nature is that it “belongs” to God, who calls it “my” spirit. The spirit is called “God’s” spirit in many verses and King David understood the holy spirit belonged to God because he wrote “…do not take your holy spirit from me.” The Bible shows us that “the holy spirit” is under God’s authority and direction, which makes sense when we understand it's the gift of His nature that He gives to believers. The words “Messiah” in Hebrew (mashiyach מָשִׁיחַ) and “Christ” in Greek (christos Χριστός) both mean “anointed one.” Thus, the early Christians would have known him as “Jesus the anointed one.” God “anointed” Jesus Christ with the holy spirit and that's why Jesus was said to have been “anointed” even though people knew he had never been formally anointed with oil (Acts 4:27; 10:38).

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name “Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus” in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

 

[Peterlag]

You keep quoting John out of context.... John tells you why He wrote his book!!!!

Note the context!!!

NET BIBLE Joh 20:31 But these59 are recorded60 so that you may believe61 that Jesus is the Christ,62 the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.63

NASB Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Christ.... is a person annointed BY GOD... not God!

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.


Unity is being annointed by God!!!
Paul

Here's another one...

The “holy spirit” God gave in the Old Testament was God’s nature, but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “firstfruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.

The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John 14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).

God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed. The simple and straightforward reading of the Scripture is that there is one God, who is sometimes referred to as “the Holy Spirit” and one Lord who is the man Jesus Christ, and one gift of the holy spirit that is the nature of God that He gives to people.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, Paul told us...

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

That's how the Body of Christ's works.... No single person has the whole truth... we must seek the parts from other members of the body of Christ!

Paul

We should never rely on man to teach us, but to test what they teach to see if it lines up with scripture. Only the Holy Spirit can teach us in all truths and understanding by using others to help teach us, or directly teaches us through studying the word of God.

1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.