You just listed a whole bunch of verses that say the same thing that I said concerning the mystery. All talking about the mystery of the Jew and Gentile being one body.
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Data On The Trinity
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
No, I didn't.
First was about the mystery of God manifest in the flesh.
You must overcome confirmation bias, read it again carefully.
Don't assume you know, read it over and over until you understand what I said.
Then you can reply intelligently. Confirmation Bias requires discipline to overcome, a desire to overcome it.
Okay here a bunch...
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
*** Jew and Gentile concerning the one body.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
*** Jew and Gentile concerning the one body.
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col. 1:26-28 NKJ)
*** Jew and Gentile concerning the one body.
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
*** Jew and Gentile concerning the one body.
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ. (Eph. 3:8-9 NKJ)
*** Jew and Gentile concerning the one body.
Your confirmation bias is so strong you slipped into cognitive dissonance. Even what you claimed is now unseen by you---its been replaced by a fabricated reality.
Below are your claims the only mystery in scripture concerns "Jew and Gentile being one body", and my refutation where I list various Scriptures proving the Holy Trinity is implicitly said to be a mystery because it is pertinent to Christ being "God manifest in the flesh" and the Incarnation of God which led to "Christ in us". We Christians have a fellowship in this mystery hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ. The mystery of the Holy Trinity is implicit in all these texts:
Peterlag>But the Bible does not say that the Trinity is a mystery or that any part of the New Testament is a mystery.
Peterlag> The only mystery that I can find was the one Paul made known which is that the Jews and the Gentiles would now be of the same body which is in Christ Jesus.
Peterlag>You just listed a whole bunch of verses that say the same thing that I said concerning the mystery. All talking about the mystery of the Jew and Gentile being one body.
The Following Scriptures are NOT about Jew and Gentile being one body. They concern the Being of God, God manifest in the flesh, God incarnate creating the fellowship of Christians by God who created all things through Christ:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)
26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col. 1:26-28 NKJ)
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ. (Eph. 3:8-9 NKJ)
Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. (1 Cor. 4:1 NKJ)
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, (Col. 4:3 NKJ)
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Colossians 1 that you mention is the same thing he tells you in Ephesians 3
How is it me making it up? You can read it for yourself. Behold...
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
The false claim the Holy Trinity isn't in scripture, or that the concept of mystery is never ascribed to the Holy Trinity has been debunked by my replies. I'm done. Have a nice day.
Why would the Jews want to kill Jesus if he and the Father were one in purpose? They would have supported that, wouldn’t they?
And I most certainly do not believe they are one creature. Language matters in theological discussions, especially when it comes to God. A creature is a created being, of which neither the Father nor the Son are created beings. They are of the same essence and of the one being that is God.
In response to the first paragraph, the Jews obviously didn't understand God's purpose. They had their own ideology that was different than God's plan. When Jesus told them the truth, they couldn't handle it.
I agree with the second paragraph.
Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus “the firstborn of all creation.” Scholars disagree on what this phrase means, but that is primarily because the doctrine of the Trinity obscures its simple meaning. Trinitarian doctrine states that Jesus is “eternal” but if that is true then he cannot be the firstborn “of all creation” because that would make him part of the creation. But the simple reading of Colossians 1:15 seems clear: Jesus is a created being. The BDAG Greek-English lexicon [entry under “creation”] explains the Greek word translated “creation” as “that which is created… of individual things or beings created, creature.” Not only was Jesus a created being, but he's also called the “firstborn” from the dead because he was the first one in God’s creation who was raised from the dead to everlasting life—a point that is also made in Colossians 1:18.
God is eternal and was not born. In contrast to the eternal God, Christ is “begotten” that is born meaning Jesus Christ had a beginning. Jesus is never called “God the Son” in the Bible, but he's called the “Son of God” more than 50 times, and a “son” has a beginning. The very fact that Jesus is the “Son of God” shows he had a beginning. Trinitarian doctrine denies this and invents the phrase “eternally begotten" but “eternally begotten” is not in the Bible, but was invented to help explain the Trinity and is actually a nonsensical phrase because the words are placed together but they cancel each other out. “Eternal” means without beginning or end and something that is “begotten” by definition has a beginning.
The Jews would not have considered Jesus a threat, but insane if he had walked around saying he was God. But it was a threat for Jesus to claim to be the Messiah of God and also walk around doing miracles. Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.
In the last sentence, your conclusion doesn't follow. By definition, if Jesus is eternal, then he cannot be a part of creation, since creation began at a point in time.
Context is king; it is what determines meaning. So, let's look at the context:
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. (ESV)
If, as you claim, "the firstborn of all creation" means that "Jesus is a created being," then Paul immediately contradicts that with verses 16 and 17. The logic is very simple: if all things were created by Jesus, then Jesus cannot be created. Put the other way: if Jesus was created, then it necessarily cannot be the case that everything was created "by" and "through" him. That is, if even one thing was created without the Son, such was the Son himself, then it is logically impossible that "all things" were created by him. There is no other logical conclusion.
So, where does that leave us with verse 15? It means there must be another meaning of "firstborn," and it is hinted at in verse 18--"that in everything he might be preeminent" (see also Rev 1:5). And we can see from other places in Scripture that "firstborn" certainly means exactly that--preeminence or sovereignty:
Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, (ESV)
Psa 89:20 I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him,
...
Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (ESV)
Jer 31:9 With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (ESV)
We see then that "firstborn" has meanings which are not literal. We know from reading the Bible that the firstborn had certain rights and privileges but we also see in the verses above that it seemed those whom God loved, those with whom he had relationship, he called his firstborn, even though they were not in any literal sense his firstborn.
The use of firstborn can mean preeminence without the referent having actually been born. Looking at the significance of Psalms 89:27, it is a messianic Psalm where God says of David, "I will make him the firstborn." Here, firstborn clearly means that God will put him in a position of preeminence, "the highest of the kings of the earth." David is here the prototype of the coming Messiah, the "firstborn," and has nothing to do with David's being born or coming into being. This is almost certainly what Paul had in mind, and we see something similar in Romans:
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (ESV)
Here is means the same--that Jesus would be the head of all believers.
In relation to the Son then, we can understand that Col. 1:15 is speaking of Jesus's place of pre-eminence, his sovereignty, and his lordship, over all creation.
As an aside, one can easily see that Col 1:16-17 agree with John 1:3: "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." The logic is, again, inescapable. If all things were made through the Son, then the Son cannot be made.
As I have shown, and can continue with many other verses, the Son has no beginning, he is eternal. That is precisely why Trinitarians are correct to say that he is of the same essence or substance of the Father, why he is truly and fully God just as the Father is truly and fully God.
You say that a '"son" has a beginning.' In human terms, yes, that is correct, but why? It is because we are of the same substance as our parents. The Son of God, if he is in any true sense God's Son, must then necessarily be of the same substance as the Father, correct? That means that the substance of the Father is eternal and, therefore, the substance of the Son is eternal. Again, it can only mean the Son has always existed. Again, this was a claim to deity, for which, as we have already seen, the Jews tried to kill Jesus.
Be careful when arguing to the use of "begotten." There are not only multiple Greek words translated as "begotten," with different meanings, it may be used literally or figuaratively.
by him were all things created does not mean the planets. The all things Paul is referring to are all thing pertaining to the new birth.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Paul could not be more clear that he means absolutely everything. This lines up perfectly with John 1:3.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Again, Paul could not be more clear. It lines up perfectly with John 1:1.
eastern orthodox identifies the distinction between Father and Son. Yet believe the Son has no beginning. I agree in part.
The Confession of Dositheos
Patriarch of Jerusalem (1641-1707)
We believe in One God, true, almighty, and infinite, the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit; the Father unbegotten; the Son begotten of the Father before the ages, and
consubstantial with Him; and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, and
consubstantial with the Father and the Son. These Three Persons in One essence we call
the All-holy Trinity, — by all creation to be ever blessed, glorified, and adored.
The Confession of Dositheos
Patriarch of Jerusalem (1641-1707)
We believe in One God, true, almighty, and infinite, the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit; the Father unbegotten; the Son begotten of the Father before the ages, and
consubstantial with Him; and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father, and
consubstantial with the Father and the Son. These Three Persons in One essence we call
the All-holy Trinity, — by all creation to be ever blessed, glorified, and adored.
"He is before all things..." was to show that Jesus has been elevated by God above everything else, certainly far above the angels that some people were worshipping (Colossians 2:18), and the rules of the world (Colossians 2:20). Some people have used the phrase to try to prove that Jesus existed before everything else. However, the word "before" can refer to time, place, or position (i.e., superiority). This leads us to conclude that the whole point of this section is to show that Christ is "before," i.e., "superior to" all things, just as the verse says. If someone were to insist that time is involved, we would point out that in the very next verse Christ is the firstborn from the dead, and thus in his new body and in the presence of God before his Church in time as well as in position.
John 1:1-3, "In the beginning[a] was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created." NET
That says quite clearly that Jesus existed before all creation.
Jesus, (His spirit), is the beginning of the creation of the Father, (rev 3:14; col 1:15) and He is indeed before all other things except the Father His God. He is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.
The fullness was gifted from the Father, not formed, at point in history before the world began. Col 1:19 That took place in history and is not coeternal. And in that gifting Jesus is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God. The radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. God in that context. The world and that which dwells in it and thrones and authorities in the heavenly realms God, (The Father) made and put in place through and for Jesus.
The Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body prepared for Him.
"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
And the Father was living in Him.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is just that the Spirit of the Father alone, not Jesus, spoke of as His own. The Fathers Spirit would have the Fathers nature. Jesus spoke of that Spirit as another. The Father does not.
Fathers promise - In the last days I will pour out My Spirit...
But, again, your explanation ignores the context, namely, verse 16. We already know from verse 15 that "firstborn" refers to his sovereignty, superiority, or preeminence. Verse 16 cannot be any more clear that this is based on ("For") every single created thing having been created through Christ. This necessarily precludes him from being created. As I pointed out, this agrees perfectly with John 1:3.
Remember that it is context that determines meaning. With "before all things, and in him all things hold together" immediately following "all things were created through him and for him," we understand that "before all things" refers to chronology. That is, Jesus existed before all things that were created. And, as I pointed out, this agrees with John 1:1.
We should also consider John 17:5, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" and 17:24, "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world."
As one can easily see, there is a consistent message throughout the NT, and that is Jesus was in existence prior to creation coming into being.
It is imperative that the serious student of the Bible come to a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as "Word" in John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated "Word" (some versions even write "Christ" in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it.) When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator's decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like "reason" (thus "logic" is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a "word," "saying," "command," etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning logos has, and some of the ways it is translated in Scripture are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, saying, sentence, speaker, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word, and words. I had thought you would have picked a verse that had not a wide range of meanings.
I just put up on the Internet some data that talks about me in Christ and Christ in me. Does that make me God? Behold 1 John...
God dwelleth in us
Hereby know we that we dwell in him
and he in us
because he hath given us of his Spirit
God dwelleth in him and he in God
he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God
and God in him
we are in him
in his Son Jesus Christ