Data On The Trinity

[Peterlag]

Please do not yell at others in which large bold print usually means in discussions.

Everyone has a view and points they try to make within discussing scripture on the Trinity. No one can completely understand the Trinity unless they use the full context of all the scripture, especially where Jesus has said He and the Father are one, I AM, He is Alpha and Omega.

I know I have given these scriptures a couple times in here, but I would hope that you and everyone would go read and study all of them that say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God's Spirit given to us in various ways.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

Okay let's do the next one on the list... Romans 9:5

Verse 4 talks about the fathers who were Israelities and the glory, covenants, law and such promises. Then verse 5 again with the fathers and then in the flesh Christ came who is over all those fathers. And blessed for ever. Now how do you get he's God out of that?

Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[for_his_glory]

You have to have intelligent subjects to discuss and so far I have not seen any solid data coming from you folks other than spinning and twisting. If you want solid evidence then look at this...

First I am not going to read through your part 1,2,3 but state these are your views and understandings. These are intelligent subjects and everyone is also entitled to their views and understandings even if we do not always agree. When it comes to trying to understand the Trinity/Deity none of us can know the full understanding, but only in part.

I/we can say the same to you that we have not seen any solid data coming from you, but only your views and understanding. You need to start respecting the views and understanding of others as you are very close to breaking the ToS 1.1.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay let's do the next one on the list... Romans 9:5

Verse 4 talks about the fathers who were Israelities and the glory, covenants, law and such promises. Then verse 5 again with the fathers and then in the flesh Christ came who is over all those fathers. And blessed for ever. Now how do you get he's God out of that?

Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Can't just pick and choose those partial scriptures, but need the full context as I gave in all those scriptures, but am sure you never went and studied any of them that show the Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all the very Spirit of God.

You would do much better in presenting your points with smaller replies as not everyone is going to read a three part section and try to discuss everything in them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

...

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt. 11:25-30 NKJ)

Holy Scripture is perfectly written, it separates the wheat from the chaff.

There are those who hearts are dull, their ears hard of hearing, they eyes cannot see by their own choice:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

God didn't make it easy lest the wrong people escape revealing their true selves in this life. Allowing a child of the devil "sneak in" to the Kingdom would be a crime against eternity, against all the righteous living there.

Lest they repent, the Scripture requires the Holy Spirit to open the eyes and ears. God doesn't open the ears of the devil's children, so they do not hear.

They could "hear" and "see" the truth if they wanted to, without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity is the only explanation for the relationships of the Father Son and Holy Spirit manifest in Scripture, emmeshed in the very fabric of Scripture. These Three Divine Persons appear and act in Scripture that requires the Holy Trinity be True.

In other words, the effects by the Three Divine Persons in scripture would be contradictory if the Holy Trinity is not The EXPLANATION for how these Three Different Persons act in the name of the One God.

43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45 "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. (Jn. 8:43-45 NKJ)

Jesus Christ taught the Holy Trinity, repeatedly declaring He was God in the flesh, that YHWH God was His Father in a way only true of Him, the Only Begotten Son of God. The Trinity is so central to the Christian faith, all must be baptized in the One NAME (singular) of God, yet Three Persons are named:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:19-20 NKJ)

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:28-21:1 NKJ)

Yes, belief in the Holy Trinity, in the Name of Jesus---that He is as Thomas confessed BOTH Lord and God, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, is essential for salvation.

PS: Its been agreed by Eastern and Western Christians, the Filioque addition doesn't change the essential agreement all the Church has about the Holy Trinity. Even those who reject the Filioque addition (Eastern Orthodox, me) do confess everything we have in the New Covenant of Christ's Blood, is "from the Son". If it were not for His ransom sacrifice, nothing would proceed from the Father to us except Holy Wrath.

As for "Oneness Pentecostals", it denies the Name of Jesus as the Only Begotten Son of the Father. If you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, you don't have the Father either:

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood-- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
(1 Jn. 5:5-13 NKJ)

 

[Peterlag]

First I am not going to read through your part 1,2,3 but state these are your views and understandings. These are intelligent subjects and everyone is also entitled to their views and understandings even if we do not always agree. When it comes to trying to understand the Trinity/Deity none of us can know the full understanding, but only in part.

I/we can say the same to you that we have not seen any solid data coming from you, but only your views and understanding. You need to start respecting the views and understanding of others as you are very close to breaking the ToS 1.1.

I do respect the views of others. I have said I don't care if you believe or not. Then someone will pick up on that and say I'm an uncaring person. And I don't attack personally as many do here to me. I stay with the subject matter. I have no idea what rule you say I'm getting close to breaking. The problem with these websites is that somebody will pick up on what I said to you and use it out of context against me. As may even be the issue here with me and you. I may have said to someone else that I don't find his remarks to be intelligent. And than someone else will say I said that he was not intelligent. The bottom line for me is I put what I consider the truth of God's Word out there and I don't care who believes it. But if those reply. Then I will respond.

 

[Peterlag]

Can't just pick and choose those partial scriptures, but need the full context as I gave in all those scriptures, but am sure you never went and studied any of them that show the Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all the very Spirit of God.

You would do much better in presenting your points with smaller replies as not everyone is going to read a three part section and try to discuss everything in them.

I put that long 3 part post out there only to the same person who I thought would enjoy the reading.

 

[Peterlag]

Why a next verse when you haven't finished addressing John 10:30? We are already discussing this and I have asked you a question which you have not answered. I have also made another point which you have not addressed. We cannot move on until we have settled the meaning of this verse.

I see they were one in purpose and you see they are one creature. What more is there to discuss? What further question needs to be answered?

 

[Peterlag]

You have to have intelligent subjects to discuss and so far I have not seen any solid data coming from you folks other than spinning and twisting. If you want solid evidence then look at this...


There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of a verse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1 Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

Yeah here is where I said that. I'm not putting you down or not respecting you. I simply don't see anything intelligent left in the verse to discuss. You see Jesus as God and that does not make any sense to me.

 

[Peterlag]

Please do not yell at others in which large bold print usually means in discussions.

Everyone has a view and points they try to make within discussing scripture on the Trinity. No one can completely understand the Trinity unless they use the full context of all the scripture, especially where Jesus has said He and the Father are one, I AM, He is Alpha and Omega.

I know I have given these scriptures a couple times in here, but I would hope that you and everyone would go read and study all of them that say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God's Spirit given to us in various ways.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that reference the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

How about Colossians 2:9
Is there not a verse that says I too might be filled with all the fullness of God? (Ephesians 3:19) Does that make me God?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Something that is openly admitted by theologians that is not known by many Christians is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, but is actually “built” by piecing together statements that are said to support it. Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

Inferential logic is a sound method for establishing truth. We use it daily for everything. Why wouldn't the Creator (who knows our intellectual capacity) expect humanity infer from His acts in history, the truth about His Being?

Try telling Sherlock Holmes inferential logic cannot discern the cause of various effects.

God in Trinity is mysterious because He is unlike anything in creation, not because Three in One is irrational. It can be represented mathematically as many do in physics (1x1x1=1). Because there are no true analogies of God, He is mysterious.

You alleged doctrinal discussion of the Trinity is suppressed, or avoided. That betrays a total ignorance of History. For example, a search at Christianbooks.com shows 283 results for a search on Holy Trinity.

 

[Peterlag]

Inferential logic is a sound method for establishing truth. We use it daily for everything. Why wouldn't the Creator (who knows our intellectual capacity) expect humanity infer from His acts in history, the truth about His Being?

Try telling Sherlock Holmes inferential logic cannot discern the cause of various effects.

God in Trinity is mysterious because He is unlike anything in creation, not because Three in One is irrational. It can be represented mathematically as many do in physics (1x1x1=1). Because there are no true analogies of God, He is mysterious.

You alleged doctrinal discussion of the Trinity is suppressed, or avoided. That betrays a total ignorance of History. For example, a search at Christianbooks.com shows 283 results for a search on Holy Trinity.

But the Bible does not say that the Trinity is a mystery or that any part of the New Testament is a mystery. I think the Scriptures are so simple that even a child could understand. But if you get it wrong and therefore don't understand it or can't explain it. Then you come up with well, God did not mean for us to understand, or it's a mystery. The only mystery that I can find was the one Paul made known which is that the Jews and the Gentiles would now be of the same body which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

I do respect the views of others. I have said I don't care if you believe or not. Then someone will pick up on that and say I'm an uncaring person. And I don't attack personally as many do here to me. I stay with the subject matter. I have no idea what rule you say I'm getting close to breaking. The problem with these websites is that somebody will pick up on what I said to you and use it out of context against me. As may even be the issue here with me and you. I may have said to someone else that I don't find his remarks to be intelligent. And than someone else will say I said that he was not intelligent. The bottom line for me is I put what I consider the truth of God's Word out there and I don't care who believes it. But if those reply. Then I will respond.

Slow your roll there brother. I am referring to your post # 65 where you said "You have to have intelligent subjects to discuss and so far I have not seen any solid data coming from you folks other than spinning and twisting. If you want solid evidence then look at this.." Then you proceed to give your view as if no one knows what they are talking about.

Telling someone else that "I don't find his remarks to be intelligent" is a violation of the ToS 1.1 please go back and read that. We all give what we believe is truth, even if we are found wrong at times as someone will point out something we never saw before.

I will not pursue this matter any further and if you have a problem then please take it to TWTS.

 

[for_his_glory]

I put that long 3 part post out there only to the same person who I thought would enjoy the reading.

We ask the members to keep their post at a length that can be discussed and then move on to their next point as it is to hard to reply to very long postings. Give a little then discuss. Give a little more than discuss. Makes it easier for all to reply.

 

[for_his_glory]

How about Colossians 2:9
Is there not a verse that says I too might be filled with all the fullness of God? (Ephesians 3:19) Does that make me God?

I will not discuss this with you in this thread. Please take this to TWTS if you want to pursue this further. Meanwhile any postings of yours that violate the ToS will be deleted and you will be banned from this thread.

 

[Peterlag]

I will not discuss this with you in this thread. Please take this to TWTS if you want to pursue this further. Meanwhile any postings of yours that violate the ToS will be deleted and you will be banned from this thread.

You can stone me, hang me, ban me, or burn me at the stake. And none of that will change the fact that Jesus is not God.

 

[jaybo]

You can stone me, hang me, ban me, or burn me at the stake. And none of that will change the fact that Jesus is not God.

So John was mistaken when he wrote " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"? Whom should I believe, John -- an eyewitness to Jesus Christ and author of several "books" of the New Testament -- or you?

 

[Peterlag]

So John was mistaken when he wrote " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"? Whom should I believe, John -- an eyewitness to Jesus Christ and author of several "books" of the New Testament -- or you?

It was not John, but Bible teachers who attached the idea of a "divine person" to the Greek word "logos." The early meaning of "logos" meant reason of speech and not Jesus Christ.

 

[jaybo]

It was not John, but Bible teachers who attached the idea of a "divine person" to the Greek word "logos." The early meaning of "logos" meant reason of speech and not Jesus Christ.

When Jesus appeared, He was the Logos of God. BTW, John was a Bible teacher par excellence.

 

[Alfred Persson]

But the Bible does not say that the Trinity is a mystery or that any part of the New Testament is a mystery. I think the Scriptures are so simple that even a child could understand. But if you get it wrong and therefore don't understand it or can't explain it. Then you come up with well, God did not mean for us to understand, or it's a mystery. The only mystery that I can find was the one Paul made known which is that the Jews and the Gentiles would now be of the same body which is in Christ Jesus.

Peterlag>But the Bible does not say that the Trinity is a mystery or that any part of the New Testament is a mystery.

There are many Bible verses regarding the mysteries of God in Christ, "God manifest in the flesh". To understand that requires knowledge of Triune Nature of God. As belief in the Name of the only begotten Son of the Father is part of that, understanding the Incarnation and Eternal Generation also necessary.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Col. 1:26-28 NKJ)

8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ. (Eph. 3:8-9 NKJ)

Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. (1 Cor. 4:1 NKJ)

meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, (Col. 4:3 NKJ)

Peterlag> I think the Scriptures are so simple that even a child could understand.

Half true. Yes, a child can know how to be saved----but even God's angels have not uncovered all Scripture truth in thousands of years:

21 "But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.) (Dan. 10:21-11:1 NKJ)

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things which angels desire to look into. (1 Pet. 1:10-12 NKJ)

Peterlag> But if you get it wrong and therefore don't understand it or can't explain it. Then you come up with well, God did not mean for us to understand, or it's a mystery.

I never heard that "excuse" in over 40 years. I believe you made it up.

Peterlag> The only mystery that I can find was the one Paul made known which is that the Jews and the Gentiles would now be of the same body which is in Christ Jesus.

Search again, a concordance will help:

Mk. 4:11; Rom. 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; 15:51; Eph. 1:9; 3-4, 9; 5:32; 6:19; Col. 1:26-27; 2:2; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:7; 1 Tim. 3:9, 16; Rev. 1:20; Rev. 10:7; Rev. 17:5, 7.

 

[Peterlag]

When Jesus appeared, He was the Logos of God. BTW, John was a Bible teacher par excellence.

We agree on that. Jesus was the logos of God when he started his ministry.