Data On The Trinity

[Peterlag]

Peterlag and Alfred Persson

You might want to take your arguments to a private PM as your post are getting heated by the very large bold print, which represents yelling at each other to prove a point. Both of you are in violation of the ToS 1.1 and 1.3. If this behavior continues you will both be banned from this thread.

God's word is only a mystery to those who have no Spiritual knowledge, but only read with a carnal logical mind as all of God's word is revealed to those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirt that teaches us all that God wants us to learn.

1Tim 3:14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I have no knowledge of using any bold or large print. Perhaps it come up that way when I quote someone.

 

[Free]

I have commented on John 1 and yet you keep bringing it up like if I had not.

You commented but have ignored my rebuttal which shows your comments, your understanding of the passage, to be seriously deficient. Numerous times I have tried to get you to respond to my rebuttal but you keep on ignoring it and then bringing up your comments as though no one has showed them to be lacking. You're just going in circles.

 

[jaybo]

gordon777
All forums are a place to discuss, give your views, give your understanding, to ask questions and hopefully to learn. Not everyone is going to agree with each other and it is the indifferences that we discuss as we are all learning. Just because someone does not agree with another's understanding does not mean they are right and everyone else is wrong, it just means that many are taught in many various ways. Some believe everything that comes from what their Pastor teaches without really studying for themselves and then you have others that are very studious in study scripture on their own.

Trinity is a hard thing for all of us to try and understand as I believe we can only know in part as to what God wants revealed to us. We can learn from others that have a greater Spiritual knowledge if we just open our minds without coming in with any preconceived ideologies and listen and take in consideration of what others are saying and go study the scriptures they give by asking the Holy Spirit to reveal all truths for after all the Spirit of God is our only teacher and works through others to teach us as we Spiritually discern what is being taught. Are we always right, no, are we always wrong, no, but we are ever learning.


2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I totally agree with you. One small correction: The word "study" in 2 Timothy 2:15 does not mean "the devotion of time and attention to acquiring knowledge on an academic subject, especially by means of books". In 1611, it meant "make every effort" or "be eager" or "be diligent" or "do your best".

 

[for_his_glory]

For you I will do both verses:

Isaiah 9:6
In the culture of the Bible, anyone who began anything or was very important to someone was called its "father." Jabal was the first one to live in a tent and raise livestock. The Bible says "... he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock" (Genesis 4:20). Jubal was the first inventor of musical instruments. And so he's called "... the father of all who play the harp and flute. (Genesis 4:21). Scripture is not using "father" in the sense of literal father or ancestor in these verses because both these men were descendants of Cain and all their descendants died in the flood. "Father" was being used in the cultural understanding of either one who was the first to do something or someone who was important in some way. Because the Messiah will be the one to establish the age to come, raise the dead into it, and rule over it is why he is called "the father of the coming age."

The phrase "Mighty God" can also be better translated. The word God in the Hebrew culture had a much wider range of application than it does in ours. Those familiar with semitic languages know a man who is acting with God's authority can be called a god. English makes a clear distinction between God and god. The Hebrew language which has only capital letters cannot. A better translation for the English would be "mighty hero" or "divine hero."
Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translate the phrase as divine hero in their Bibles.

Revelation 1:8 These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, "... who is, and who was, and who is to come..." is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: " Grace and Peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth..." The separation between "...him who is, and who was, and who is to come..." and Christ can be clearly seen. The one "...who is, and who was, and who is to come..." is God.

This is the website you used at https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Isaiah/chapter9/6 I can not agree with some of what is taught there. Here are the reasons why.


First I'm only asking you about Isaiah 9:1-7, particualy about vs. 9 about what Isaiah said of the names Jesus is to be known by. Jabal has nothing to do with these verses. Nothing there about any need to explain about Jabal being called father or even for that matter father Abraham in which both were leaders, but no gods. There are many we see as our heros in history, but they are not divine.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Even in Hebrew culture there is no wider range, but God only being their/our Father in heaven.

KJV Isaiah 9:6
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I actually have the Moffit Bible copyright 1926 that a Pastor gave me many years ago and here is what was written.

James Moffit Bible Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will call his name
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero,
Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace



"Mighty Hero" - None of us has divine authority except Christ who is a part of the Godhead and has given us His power and authority for the purpose of His ministry as we are only faithful servants of God. Mighty hero and divine hero are used in the Moffit English translation, but only belongs to the Father and His Christ, Rev 11:15, as they are one and the same in nature being Alpha and Omega as you can read in the supremacy of God's Son in Hebrews 1:1-14 and Rev 1:8.

There is justification in the context of Isaiah 9:6 for that verse is the very description of the names given to Christ Jesus in who He is. It's only natural that the Jews of the OT knew nothing of an incarnation as Christ had not yet come into the world. Even when He did they sought to kill Him as they called Him a Blasphemer for saying He and God are one. John 10:22-42. Just because someone is called a reputable Trinitarian scholar does not make them one, but only to those who agree with them.

 

[for_his_glory]

One at a time. Here's John 10:30
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

All that are Spiritually born again from above are as one as being in the Spirit of God as all the works of God's righteousness is all one work. You can try to justify your believe, but God's word never changes.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 1:8 These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, "... who is, and who was, and who is to come..." is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: " Grace and Peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth..." The separation between "...him who is, and who was, and who is to come..." and Christ can be clearly seen. The one "...who is, and who was, and who is to come..." is God.

It's clear that you can not see that this is Jesus speaking in Rev 1:8. Who is it that is coming back who said He is Alpha and Omega. Read that verse for what is written as that which is written in the red letter editions of the NT is Christ speaking.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah first prophesied of Him.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Prophet Isaiah prophecy fulfilled

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jesus claiming who He was, is and which will return.

Jesus is speaking of Himself in Rev 1:8 as well as all those other scriptures I gave you. God (word made flesh) was, is and which is to come is Jesus in the fullness of the Godhead that will return on the last day.

 

[Peterlag]

This is the website you used at https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Isaiah/chapter9/6 I can not agree with some of what is taught there. Here are the reasons why.


First I'm only asking you about Isaiah 9:1-7, particualy about vs. 9 about what Isaiah said of the names Jesus is to be known by. Jabal has nothing to do with these verses. Nothing there about any need to explain about Jabal being called father or even for that matter father Abraham in which both were leaders, but no gods. There are many we see as our heros in history, but they are not divine.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Even in Hebrew culture there is no wider range, but God only being their/our Father in heaven.

KJV Isaiah 9:6
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I actually have the Moffit Bible copyright 1926 that a Pastor gave me many years ago and here is what was written.

James Moffit Bible Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will call his name
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero,
Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace



"Mighty Hero" - None of us has divine authority except Christ who is a part of the Godhead and has given us His power and authority for the purpose of His ministry as we are only faithful servants of God. Mighty hero and divine hero are used in the Moffit English translation, but only belongs to the Father and His Christ, Rev 11:15, as they are one and the same in nature being Alpha and Omega as you can read in the supremacy of God's Son in Hebrews 1:1-14 and Rev 1:8.

There is justification in the context of Isaiah 9:6 for that verse is the very description of the names given to Christ Jesus in who He is. It's only natural that the Jews of the OT knew nothing of an incarnation as Christ had not yet come into the world. Even when He did they sought to kill Him as they called Him a Blasphemer for saying He and God are one. John 10:22-42. Just because someone is called a reputable Trinitarian scholar does not make them one, but only to those who agree with them.

I did not use that website. I wrote with my own hand from the book called One God & One Lord" written by: John A Lynn, Mark H Graeser, and John W Schoenheit. The website you are telling me that I used is a site I do not use. I do post other stuff from John Schoenheit who is one of the writers from the above mentioned book. I do use some of his other writings that have his Bible verses and that's probably why you think I went to that site.

 

[for_his_glory]

I did not use that website. I wrote with my own hand from the book called One God & One Lord" written by: John A Lynn, Mark H Graeser, and John W Schoenheit. The website you are telling me that I used is a site I do not use. I do post other stuff from John Schoenheit who is one of the writers from the above mentioned book. I do use some of his other writings that have his Bible verses and that's probably why you think I went to that site.

Whether you wrote with your own hand or copied and pasted are from that website site as these are the writings of John Schoenheit who wrote everything that is written there. I'm sure there are many sites that carry these same writings of His. Still there are discrepancies as these are his own views and understandings.

I like what is written of John 1:1-15 in the Moffit Bible as it makes the English must clearer than the KJV that I use in explaining Jesus as part of the Godhead (Trinity) in Deity.

John 1:1-15 Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. 2 He was with God in the very beginning: 3 through him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him. 4 In him life lay, and this life was the Light for men: 5 amid the darkness the Light shone, but the darkness did not master it. 6 A man appeared, sent by God, whose name was John: 7 he came for the purpose of witnessing, to bear testimony to the Light, so that all men might believe by means of him. 8 He was not the Light; it was to bear testimony to the Light that he appeared. 9 The real Light, which enlightens every man, was coming then into the world: 10 he entered the world — the world which existed through him — yet the world did not recognize him; 11 he came to what was his own, yet his own folk did not welcome him. 12 On those who have accepted him, however, he has conferred the right of being children of God, that is, on those who believe in his Name, 13 who owe this birth of theirs to God, not to human blood, nor to any impulse of the flesh or of man. 14 So the Logos became flesh and tarried among us; we have seen his glory — glory such as an only son enjoys from his father — seen it to be full of grace and reality. 15 (John testified to him with the cry, 'This was he of whom I said, my successor has taken precedence of me, for he preceded me.')

 

[Randy]

I'm still spanking your Theology.... As your still posting what your told... Yet... I see no new scripture to spank you with... in your post!

Silly Randy...
Being that I do not belong to any Church... Unlike you... My theology began when I asked God to show me the Truth...

The other Paul said.... 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; So... I took the time to seek out all the parts from the hundreds of different Christian Churches/Dominations...

Now you have me... a seeker of the Truth from all Christian/Dominations of your Bible... to spank you so easily...

Randy... You may hate me, but you know I speak the truth... For I can see what your Church does not allow you to see...

For example... You can not see Act 2:22... The beginning of The Church of our Christ/Messiah.

Randy the Trinity died at Act 2:22...
Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Thus, another spiritual spanking for you...
Paul

As I have testified already I see the "beginning" of Jesus, (His spirit), at some point in history before the world began and before all things. God's Firstborn. And in Him it did please the fullness to dwell. -Gifted and from the will of another. The Godhead or Deity or Fullness that lives or dwells in Jesus is the Father. In that unity Jesus the Son and Firstborn is One with the Father and ALL that the Father is. God in that context. Jesus is shown with the Father in the beginning and as a craftsman in regard to the creation. And is shown as One who is the very image of God and the very imprint of Gods being. (God) Jesus the Son of Man testified the works He performed show that the Father is in Him and He and the Father are ONE.

Jesus stating the beginning of worshipping "the Father" in Spirit and truth before Acts 22. As Paul also testified worshiping God in the new way of the Spirit not in the old way of the written code.

I see the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of God NOT as a person but as the Spirit of my Heavenly Father. The Fathers own Spirit would have the Fathers nature.

That leaves my belief
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

There are 3 who bear witness, Father, Son and the Spirit of God and they are ONE.

I have been believed in and loved Jesus as far back as my memory goes and with prayers. As one who believes in Him I asked Him in regard to the trinity.

The answer from above with words to the question, "Is Jesus God?" differs from yours.
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

The Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body prepared for Him and we read the Father was living in Him and they are ONE.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.

Jesus- For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Jesus-
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

I know Jesus and He knows me. I follow Him. His life did not begin in the womb of Mary. And it is the Fathers will that JESUS raise up on the last day all that the Father gives Him. And the one who is the image of the invisible God and the very imprint of Gods being is capable of caring out His Fathers will.

 

[Corinth77777]

Here's more on the co-equal...

The Bible says Jesus is an “heir” of God (Hebrew 1:2), and a “joint-heir” with us (Romans 8:17). But if Christ is a co-eternal “Person” in the “Godhead” then he cannot be an heir “of God” because being God would put him into a position to be a full owner of everything and that would mean there would be nothing he could “inherit” which is why Jesus cannot be God and an heir of God at the same time. Jesus said: “…the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). In contrast, the orthodox formula of the Trinity says the Father and the Son are “co-equal.”

The Bible says the Son will be subject to the Father even in the future “When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him [God] who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28). The teaching that the two of them are “co-equal” must be wrong if Jesus is subject to the Father even in the eternal future. John 10:36 says “do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?” The fact that Jesus was consecrated, or as it's translated in other versions as “sanctified” by God shows he's not God because God does not need to be sanctified. Philippians 2:6 says that Christ “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” The point of the verse is that Jesus Christ was highly exalted by God because he was humble and did not seek equality with God. Jesus would never have needed to seek equality with God in the first place because it would have been inherent in him if he was God.

God is His Father and God is Spirit
So would that not make him both Spirit and Man? ( having came from Mary who is man)
Isn't that one reason He is the intermediator between God and Man?

 

[follower]

Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

And they have no need to try to understand it nor even to study it today. It would only cause problems in their own family, synagogue , and communities.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Peterlag and Alfred Persson

You might want to take your arguments to a private PM as your post are getting heated by the very large bold print, which represents yelling at each other to prove a point. Both of you are in violation of the ToS 1.1 and 1.3. If this behavior continues you will both be banned from this thread.

I didn't know that, or intend that. But I can see it being viewed that way. I'll cease.

But its different if one bolds a few words in a verse, to locate which words are being discussed. That wouldn't be shouting, right. After all, if all bold font is no good, then why the option to make some words bold?

There are times people can read the same verse, and see different things. A little bolding helps in those cases.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't know that, or intend that. But I can see it being viewed that way. I'll cease.

But its different if one bolds a few words in a verse, to locate which words are being discussed. That wouldn't be shouting, right. After all, if all bold font is no good, then why the option to make some words bold?

There are times people can read the same verse, and see different things. A little bolding helps in those cases.

That was over two years ago when I was still an Administrator, which I am no longer. I have nothing more to do with this. If you have a problem with this take it to TWTS as I am no longer a staff member.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That was over two years ago when I was still an Administrator, which I am no longer. I have nothing more to do with this. If you have a problem with this take it to TWTS as I am no longer a staff member.

Gee, time flies!

 

[hawkman]

And they have no need to try to understand it nor even to study it today. It would only cause problems in their own family, synagogue , and communities.

Would you like to explain the problems it would cause ?