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Death or Hell

You are not my spokesperson and you also know that is not an allowable discussion here.

If I see believers saved, where in that is harm to you?

There is in fact NONE. Other than you being pawned.

Try to love believers and they'll still brand you won't they Eventide?

lol

s

I'm simply quoting exactly what you have told me in conversation... and even though it's not allowed here.. you continue to push your deterministic pov as if it's gospel.. and everything else of course is simply wrong and you're the standard of what's correct..

Yes.. I will lol

So why don't you all ask smaller why he believes that people like Judas are saved.. I'm sure that he'd be more than happy to tell you. :-)
 
I'm simply quoting exactly what you have told me in conversation... and even though it's not allowed here.. you continue to push your deterministic pov as if it's gospel..

I'll stick to the rules as they pertain to this forum and the interactions and observations with 'believers' of whom I presume you are one.

As for your intended baiting, what can I say to those intentions?

and everything else of course is simply wrong and you're the standard of what's correct..

If you are led to not see yourself as saved, what is that to me?

Nothing. It is NOT wrong to love our fellow believers as ourselves. If you say it is, I'd say such are blinded.

s
 
Hi Smaller
You have yet to answer my posts #'s 41 and 52, but then who expects you to, thats just par for course.

In your post 55 you write: "All men are sold under sin the moment they arrive in a flesh body---". Scriptue please.

Then you quoted: "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy--." Sorry, Smaller, notice those words "gone aside" and "become filthy". Such expressions indicate they wern't born such.
 
Hi Smaller
You have yet to answer my posts #'s 41 and 52, but then who expects you to, thats just par for course.

In your post 55 you write: "All men are sold under sin the moment they arrive in a flesh body---". Scriptue please.

Then you quoted: "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy--." Sorry, Smaller, notice those words "gone aside" and "become filthy". Such expressions indicate they wern't born such.

Already addressed these Webb, and yes, that is what I cited, ALL.

If your claims are claims of exemption from 'all', then the texts would have to be re-written to suit that sight.

s
 
I'll stick to the rules as they pertain to this forum and the interactions and observations with 'believers' of whom I presume you are one.

As for your intended baiting, what can I say to those intentions?

It simply reveals where your beliefs are grounded.. and I can understand why you'd like to keep that hidden rather than right out in the open for all to see.

if you are led to not see yourself as saved, what is that to me?

I know exactly why and how all men are saved.. because the scriptures make this abundantly clear.. we need not go by what you determinists have to say.. scripture is infinitely more powerful and truthful.

Nothing. It is NOT wrong to love our fellow believers as ourselves. If you say it is, I'd say such are blinded.

s

There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving people.. even unbelievers.. although the truth is a hard pill to swallow for many, even for believers.. that doesn't mean I preach that all men are saved regardless of what they do.. even men like Judas who betrayed the LORD..

Where's the LOVE in that smaller ?
 
It simply reveals where your beliefs are grounded.. and I can understand why you'd like to keep that hidden rather than right out in the open for all to see.

That topic is not to be discussed. You know it, I know it.

I know exactly why and how all men are saved.. because the scriptures make this abundantly clear..

And again, loving our neighbors is not allowed to be discussed here AND in most churches this is also the case. It is quite pointless to say otherwise.

we need not go by what you determinists have to say.. scripture is infinitely more powerful and truthful.

Yes, I am a determinist and believe there is an eternal torturous hell fire that will be forever and ever.

Even in 'orthodoxy' land they are intelligent enough to see that they can determine exactly zero named people there YET. That is why they only carry other heretics to the gate of hell, without actually tossing them thereIN.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with loving people.. even unbelievers.. although the truth is a hard pill to swallow for many, even for believers.

Discussions of such things are not allowed, here and in many places under many roofs.

. that doesn't mean I preach that all men are saved regardless of what they do.. even men like Judas who betrayed the LORD..

I don't say that either. So make of that what you can.

Where's the LOVE in that smaller ?

There is Godly HATRED and upon those 'men' whom that falls there will be MISERY and ETERNAL DAMNATION, period.

That is why you need to listen to 'text' and not speak for me. The scriptures themselves address these matters quite sufficiently and are available for citing.

s
 
John 8:32,
The human being can only die once physically. We are born dead, a mortal nature, we live a biological existance in a state of death.
The only death we can die at present due to sin is a spiritual death. A relational separation from God. This can become an eternity of separation as well.
we also know that man will never perish, that is no longer exist since Christ redeemed the world. The purpose of our existance is to be united with God in a relationship of love. Anything outside of that perfect relationship would be perishing, or loss. Hell is the death or perishing of any relationship with God.
Again, what is being destroyed. OUr existance as human beings will never be destroyed. so the destruction is a relationship. And God is the only one that will judge man, thus be able to place people in heaven or hell.
ONce again, no man will be destroyed as a human being. All men will be raised in the last day and will be immortal and incorruptible. I Cor 15:53.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice, this is called the second death for an important reason...

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The ONLY death we can have is spiritual, since Christ was victorious over physical death and was raised to life as well as all mankind. The eternal life being spoken of is with Christ, all other will have eternal life in hell which is a spiritual death, not a physical death.

No, the wicked will be burned up, death by fire. Death is the result of sin, not life in some other place.

The whole idea of the immortality of the soul comes from the Nachash, the whispering enchanter...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

God looked Adam squarely in the eye and said...

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

He did not say, your body will return to dust, but your soul will go somewhere else. A little study on what a soul is would help at this point.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word for soul here is nephesh. Let's look at some other beings that are nephesh...

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

creatures that the waters bring forth abundantly, crabs, shrimp, lobsters, sponges are nephesh.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Hmmm, creeping things, lizards, snakes, slugs, worms and gila monsters are nephesh.

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Everything on earth that has life is a nephesh and

Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

Num 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Here, in these two verses, the word for dead is nephesh. Nephesh can die.

These contrasts are used often in scripture where the purpose of Christ's redeeming work was to enable God/Christ to have an eternal relationship with man.
John 6;39 is referencing Christ's redemption or reconcilation of the world which aligns with Col 1:20 and II Cor 5:18-19. In other words everything given to Him will be raised on the last day and will have eternal life.
However, the next verse, of all those raised to eternal life, those that see and believe will have everlasting life with HIm. A huge difference.
Acts 24:15 also makes the comparision. All will be raised but where you spend your eternity is based on whether you accepted God's call to repentance and union with Him.
On the other hand to make this death physical, you would have died a long time ago with your first sin. Unless you think you have yet to sin once, thus have not died.

The reward of the incorrigibly wicked is death, death for all eternity. Not conscious life in another place, that doctrine was popularized by Dante Alighieri.
 
Yes, I am a determinist and believe there is an eternal torturous hell fire that will be forever and ever.

But only for the devil right smaller.. because according to you all men are saved regardless of what they do.

I don't say that either. So make of that what you can.

I noticed your about face on this in another thread.. as I went back and looked where you absolutely said that the Day of the Lord was here and now.. and then later said that you didn't say it.. lol

IMO you talk from both sides of your mouth alot.

But hey.. we're just not like you yet.. and our reflections are not up to par with yours smaller..

As you say.. you enjoy that high seat you sit yourself upon.
 
Greetings to you all again on this blessed day

My faith and my walk with Christ is solid. I'm here to be a voice of reason to those who may question their faith and need help in their walk with Christ; we should be here to help uplift one another against the darts of the evil one who wants to cause divisions among us.

Unfortunately I've read just about enough on this thread. Understand, there is a division among the brethren on this thread. So what are we to do as Christians who serve the Lord Almighty?

Romans 16:17-18 -

So I'm kindly gonna step out of this conversation. It's not healthy for my walk with Christ, it does not edify the body of believers and it surely is not uplifting to my spirit.

God bless each of you and your walk with our Lord Jesus Christ!
 
But only for the devil right smaller.. because according to you all men are saved regardless of what they do.

Would you like to discuss this matter as it pertains to your sin, or the other believers?

I noticed your about face on this in another thread.. as I went back and looked where you absolutely said that the Day of the Lord was here and now.. and then later said that you didn't say it.. lol

To-DAY is always The Day of the Lord.
Hebrews 4:7
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

There is also a DAY OF THE LORD in this regards, which DAY has not yet arrived:

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

IMO you talk from both sides of your mouth alot.

And there is reasoning for that.

But hey.. we're just not like you yet.. and our reflections are not up to par with yours smaller..

If you would like me to confess my sins, consider it a fact, as well as seeing only IN PART.

You have my 'confession' set in your lap. Is that good, sufficient and truthful enough for you? Perhaps not?

As you say.. you enjoy that high seat you sit yourself upon.

I enjoy theology. I presume you do as well or you wouldn't be here.

My bad.

s
 
Would you like to discuss this matter as it pertains to your sin, or the other believers?

As it pertains to YOUR DETERMINISTIC POV.. how that everyone is saved regardless of anything they do.. how about that ?

To-DAY is always The Day of the Lord.
Hebrews 4:7
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

There is also a DAY OF THE LORD in this regards, which DAY has not yet arrived:

Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

And you knew exactly what I was speaking of when you responded to my post.. and yet you had to say that these things (the Day of the Lord) are happening here and now.. which is absurd.. and you know it.. but of course you couldn't admit that.. you later had to say that you never said these things when you flat out did.

You might think that many of us are stupid smaller.. and I can even agree with that..:-) (for myself at least) but it's another matter entirely when you speak from both sides of your mouth as you do.. and seriously, I've lost any and all respect for your commentary because of seeing you do exactly that... talk from both sides of your mouth.

Enjoy your self exalted reflections... I wouldn't know which side you're speaking from anyway.
 
Hey Smaller, where's the "ALL"? Can't be found. Is this like the one where you can't find where the gentile was ever under Moses' law?
 
As it pertains to YOUR DETERMINISTIC POV.. how that everyone is saved regardless of anything they do.. how about that ?

Your almost incessant press is that 'what we do' consists only of ourselves.

This is not the case.

The Will of God and the will of the powers of darkness also operate presently in this world. It is quite pointless to look at our activities apart from these facts, is it NOT?

I understand your 'personal' perception does not extend that far. Nothing more than that.

And you knew exactly what I was speaking of when you responded to my post.. and yet you had to say that these things (the Day of the Lord) are happening here and now.. which is absurd.. and you know it..

We've covered this before as well. Every single day of Paul's life he PRESSED for this exact matter:

"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

Every generation of believers holds this HOPE daily. Don't you?

The 'Day' of the Lord, that fancy fairy tale you have in your mind is NOT the Day of the Lord that I am anticipating.

That DAY is the DAY of JUDGMENT and WRATH.


And even that I see as A GLORIOUS DAY. A matter of wonderful delights.

You and I do not control or determine when 'that Day' is, we only know it's coming and could in fact come at any given moment in time.

This does NOT mean it will be a strictly ROSY scenario for us though.

but of course you couldn't admit that.. you later had to say that you never said these things when you flat out did.

I doubt very much that we have entered onto mutual communications ground on these matters. Therefore I'd only ask you to be polite and not stick words in my mouth.

You might think that many of us are stupid smaller.. and I can even agree with that..

Look, I admit, totally, to PARTIAL sights and seeing IN and as through DARKNESS.

Now what exactly is your beef on those facts? Am I not speaking truthfully?

How could anyone perceive that to be any more than the factual statement it is?

Does that speak of ANY superiority? Maybe only in your ears. I try to consider others who believe as ABOVE me.

but it's another matter entirely when you speak from both sides of your mouth as you do..

Perhaps the confusion is in the 'hearer' and not what is 'actually being said?

and seriously, I've lost any and all respect for your commentary because of seeing you do exactly that... talk from both sides of your mouth.

Put up the facts and we can have some discussion. Otherwise such claims are pointless.

I've said dozens of times, and you know it, that 'for example' what applied to Paul as a believer did not, not, not apply to BLESSINGS upon the EVIL PRESENT with Paul. This is not a hard matter to understand.

God blesses THE EVIL in NO MAN, period. You and I included. And as much as you may want to HEAP blessings upon SIN and EVIL, I can not go there with an honest conscience for myself.

That factual sight contains exactly ZERO harm to you as a believer and EVERY harm to the other working.

Divide there and you should not have any issues. I'd like to think that as believers we ALL stand united against SIN AND EVIL do we not?

Well, except when THAT SIGHT get's personal, eh?

Yeah, none of us really like THOSE EYES do we?

go figure....

You ask me to bless the EVIL present or any mans sin in the Name of God in Christ? I wouldn't even think of such a measure, even to myself.

I'd well like to shuck it off completely right now if it were in my own hands. But to do that means to NOT BE 'IN TRUTH.'

God commanded LIGHT to shine from DARKNESS. I happen to understand that matter 'personally.' So what is that to you?

s
 
The 'Day' of the Lord, that fancy fairy tale you have in your mind is NOT the Day of the Lord that I am anticipating.


No doubt about that.

And of course you have not reproved a single thing which I have said concerning the Day of the Lord... you must talk from both sides of your mouth and call it a fairy tale.

Once again, enjoy your self exalted reflections. I won't waste another moment of your time.
 
Hey Smaller, where's the "ALL"? Can't be found. Is this like the one where you can't find where the gentile was ever under Moses' law?

Look, Webb, every believer is put smack into the middle of the LAW OF MOSES by Paul in Romans 13. If you can't see THE LAW OF MOSES there, what do you really expect me to say? That those LAWS are not there? No matter how many times you ask, what Paul wrote is not changing.

As it pertains to all being sinners? Seriously? Do we really need to have a conversation about that? This is theology 101 that everyone should know.
Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Was this not the 'case for ALL' it would not be stated as such. And obviously GOD Himself in Christ was an exception.

This is pretty basic stuff Webb.

Jesus also advised us clearly that EVIL comes from 'within.' Using an external measure does not work or compute.

And if I see BABIES and CHILDREN and the mentally impaired and such and SEE that God will entirely SAVE THEM should they depart this present life by HIS Wondrous Indescribable Eternal Mercy and Grace, what is that to you?

Babies in hell? NEVER!!!!!


s
 
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No doubt about that.

And of course you have not reproved a single thing which I have said concerning the Day of the Lord... you must talk from both sides of your mouth and call it a fairy tale.

Once again, enjoy your self exalted reflections. I won't waste another moment of your time.

I only ask that you not place your confusions as my positions, and if you have a beef, then SPECIFY what it is as a CIVIL conversation would consist of.

Thank you for your support.

s
 
I only ask that you not place your confusions as my positions, and if you have a beef, then SPECIFY what it is as a CIVIL conversation would consist of.

Thank you for your support.

s

And it's obvious that you have concluded my commentary on the matter as that of a fairy tale.

Thank YOU smaller for your support.
 
ProphetMark,

Do you have any thoughts on these matters? You have perfect freedom to share them. Of course, we Christians might not be so gentle with you. Sorry about that.

- Davies
 
And it's obvious that you have concluded my commentary on the matter as that of a fairy tale.

Thank YOU smaller for your support.

Stated, plainly, openly.

The DAY of the LORD is the DAY OF WRATH and FINAL JUDGMENTS.


If you'd like to say otherwise, show it.

Here is what we should both be able to see:

Romans 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Has this DAY come? Uh, NO.

Insert soft music...for Eventide purposes.

s
 
John 8:23,

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice, this is called the second death for an important reason...
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

these texts all support what I stated. They are all speaking of a spiritual death, a relational separation.

Man as a human being will not ever be destroyed. All men will be immortal and incorruptible. Hell is not living life to the fullest because it will be lived separated from God spiritually. Death, physical death was defeated by Christ by His resurrection. He raised our mortal natures to life, an eternal physical existance.

Hell is a physical eternal existance, but a spiritual separation from God.

No, the wicked will be burned up, death by fire. Death is the result of sin, not life in some other place.
Hell is not burned up into non-existance.
The whole idea of the immortality of the soul comes from the Nachash, the whispering enchanter...
It actually comes from Christ. Christ by becoming man in all respects as we are, raised that mortal nature to life, man will never again, after having died once to rid ourselves from our sinful flesh, will all be raised immortal and incorruptible. I Cor 15:53.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
God looked Adam squarely in the eye and said...
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
He did not say, your body will return to dust, but your soul will go somewhere else. A little study on what a soul is would help at this point.

However, in Gen 3:15 we already have the promise of the Messiah. God knew that man would never die permanently but only temporarily. All through the OT Hades is the place of souls, but wicked and good. This is why we know both Samuel and Saul were in the same place, Hades. Christ decended into Hades to take those held captive there unjustly. We know souls are in heaven now as well. Any reading of Revelation will show that quite clearly. Physical death is the separation of body and soul. Spiritual death is the separation of a relationship between God and man.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The word for soul here is nephesh. Let's look at some other beings that are nephesh...
the context will always tell you how it is being used. Here, "soul" is used to mean a human being. We still use that term today. Often in a catastrophy one will say that a certain number of souls were lost. They are not speaking of the soul of a human being, but the human being itself. Nothing difficult here to ascertain.

Here, in these two verses, the word for dead is nephesh. Nephesh can die.
Everything dies. That is the result of sin and the condemnation of death upon the world. It is also why Christ needed to redeem the world itself. It is why He is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42.

The reward of the incorrigibly wicked is death, death for all eternity. Not conscious life in another place, that doctrine was popularized by Dante Alighieri.
Actually, it was popularized by the Apostles and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is quite obvious in scripture.

YOu have lached onto a man made theory of some kind which a lot of people do, including their own ideas.
 
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