Death or Hell

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Mitspa,

Joh 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He had real flesh, blood and bone, but NO SIN was found in Him, until He took ours upon the Cross!

Joh 8:44

Ye are ofyourfather the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45

And because I tellyouthe truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hearthemnot, because ye are not of God.

The Lord said that satan and sin had NO PLACE in Him!

Read carefully:

2 Corinthians 5:21 "for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He made Him sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him."

And,

Hebrews 2:14 "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."


If Christ was not made sin by simply being made flesh, then the argument that He was merely made a "sin offering" by virtue of being placed upon the cross for our sins would be a valid argument. The only thing wrong with that point of view is that it is demonic and antichrist, and it denies that Christ had any physical connection with the seed of Adam, which clearly was "shapen in iniquity... conceived in sin... marred in the Potters hand".

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does NOT confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of ANTICHRIST, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1 John 4:5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.


What is the spirit of antichrist? What do the scriptures say? The scriptures teach that anyone who denies that Christ's flesh was in any way not of "the flesh" of Adam, is ANTICHRIST. So the only question remaining to be answered is, Was Christ related in any way to Adam and the flesh of Adam?

If Abraham and King David are descended from Adam, as the scriptures plainly declare, then Christ too, was a direct descendant of Adam. Was Christ's flesh the same flesh into which Abraham and David were born? What do the scriptures teach concerning the flesh that our Lord had in His physical body? From whom did Christ's flesh descend?


We all know and recognize that He had NO physical father.

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit."


Being born of a physical father does not make Christ any less a fleshly son of Adam than Adam himself who was lacking both a physical father and a physical mother. So who do the scriptures declare to be the physical ancestors of Christ's flesh? Here is the Biblical answer to all those questions:

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [King David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;



Luke's gospel eliminates all doubt and traces Christ's genealogy from Joseph as Mary's husband...

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,


...back through King David...


Luke 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David,
Luke 3:32 Which was [the son] of Jesse, which was [the son] of Obed, which was [the son] of Booz, which was [the son] of Salmon, which was [the son] of Naasson,


...back through Abraham...


Luke 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luke 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,


...specifically and directly back to Adam.


Luke 3:35 Which was [the son] of Saruch, which was [the son] of Ragau, which was [the son] of Phalec, which was [the son] of Heber, which was [the son] of Sala,
Luke 3:36 Which was [the son] of Cainan, which was [the son] of Arphaxad, which was [the son] of Sem, which was [the son] of Noe, which was [the son] of Lamech,
Luke 3:37 Which was [the son] of Mathusala, which was [the son] of Enoch, which was [the son] of Jared, which was [the son] of Maleleel, which was [the son] of Cainan,
Luke 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.


Here, through His MOTHER'S genealogy, God does not deny that Adam is His son, while the whole Christian world wants to deny that Adam, "according to the flesh" via His mother's genealogy, is an ancestor of Christ.




Obviously Christ was tempted by the tempter just as we all are. How is that possible? It is possible because Christ was "the son of... Adam" (Luke 3:23-38). Christ's Adamic flesh revolted at the thought of enduring the cross, just as does the flesh of any man. The fact of this matter is that we are told in no uncertain terms that Christ was tempted just as we all are tempted:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."



Professing the "antichrist" doctrine, which teaches that Christ's flesh was not "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin", carnal-minded Christians are more than willing to deny that Christ's "vessel of clay was marred in the Potter's hand", and they are more than willing to deny that Christ was "made sin" by being "made of a woman, made under the law".

This is all done in support of a false "antichrist" doctrine which has concocted many variations of a so-called "immaculate conception" for either the mother of our Lord or for our Lord Himself. The scriptures teach that anyone who denies that Christ's flesh was in any way not of "the flesh" of Adam, is ANTICHRIST, and that is exactly what the "immaculate conception" and all variations of it (including the false "Trinity" doctrine) teach.

So all of the various forms of an "immaculate conception" are nothing more or less than demonic doctrines which purport to defend Christ's purity at the expense of the Truth of God's word which declares that Christ "was made sin for us..." (see 2 Cor 5:21 above) by being "shapen in iniquity... conceived in sin... marred in the hand of the Potter... come in corruptible flesh... and come as the son of... Adam".

 

[Atonement]

Hi Atonement,

Here is a Scripture that indicates we, as believers, will never die.
John 11:26

New King James Version (NKJV)

26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.

It's obvious that Jesus wasn't talking about the death of our bodies, but of our souls/spirits.

- Davies

Davies -

Thank you for the reply.. I was hoping the OP would give us a Scripture that states after we become Christians we never die in the flesh.. The OP never said if they were talking Spiritually or in the flesh. The Scripture quoted by you is a good one and I use it all the time in other threads

 

[Mitspa]

Read carefully:

2 Corinthians 5:21 "for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He made Him sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him."

And,

Hebrews 2:14 "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."


If Christ was not made sin by simply being made flesh, then the argument that He was merely made a "sin offering" by virtue of being placed upon the cross for our sins would be a valid argument. The only thing wrong with that point of view is that it is demonic and antichrist, and it denies that Christ had any physical connection with the seed of Adam, which clearly was "shapen in iniquity... conceived in sin... marred in the Potters hand".

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does NOT confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of ANTICHRIST, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1 John 4:5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.


What is the spirit of antichrist? What do the scriptures say? The scriptures teach that anyone who denies that Christ's flesh was in any way not of "the flesh" of Adam, is ANTICHRIST. So the only question remaining to be answered is, Was Christ related in any way to Adam and the flesh of Adam?

If Abraham and King David are descended from Adam, as the scriptures plainly declare, then Christ too, was a direct descendant of Adam. Was Christ's flesh the same flesh into which Abraham and David were born? What do the scriptures teach concerning the flesh that our Lord had in His physical body? From whom did Christ's flesh descend?


We all know and recognize that He had NO physical father.

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit."


Being born of a physical father does not make Christ any less a fleshly son of Adam than Adam himself who was lacking both a physical father and a physical mother. So who do the scriptures declare to be the physical ancestors of Christ's flesh? Here is the Biblical answer to all those questions:

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [King David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;



Luke's gospel eliminates all doubt and traces Christ's genealogy from Joseph as Mary's husband...

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,


...back through King David...


Luke 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David,
Luke 3:32 Which was [the son] of Jesse, which was [the son] of Obed, which was [the son] of Booz, which was [the son] of Salmon, which was [the son] of Naasson,


...back through Abraham...


Luke 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luke 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,


...specifically and directly back to Adam.


Luke 3:35 Which was [the son] of Saruch, which was [the son] of Ragau, which was [the son] of Phalec, which was [the son] of Heber, which was [the son] of Sala,
Luke 3:36 Which was [the son] of Cainan, which was [the son] of Arphaxad, which was [the son] of Sem, which was [the son] of Noe, which was [the son] of Lamech,
Luke 3:37 Which was [the son] of Mathusala, which was [the son] of Enoch, which was [the son] of Jared, which was [the son] of Maleleel, which was [the son] of Cainan,
Luke 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.


Here, through His MOTHER'S genealogy, God does not deny that Adam is His son, while the whole Christian world wants to deny that Adam, "according to the flesh" via His mother's genealogy, is an ancestor of Christ.




Obviously Christ was tempted by the tempter just as we all are. How is that possible? It is possible because Christ was "the son of... Adam" (Luke 3:23-38). Christ's Adamic flesh revolted at the thought of enduring the cross, just as does the flesh of any man. The fact of this matter is that we are told in no uncertain terms that Christ was tempted just as we all are tempted:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."



Professing the "antichrist" doctrine, which teaches that Christ's flesh was not "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin", carnal-minded Christians are more than willing to deny that Christ's "vessel of clay was marred in the Potter's hand", and they are more than willing to deny that Christ was "made sin" by being "made of a woman, made under the law".

This is all done in support of a false "antichrist" doctrine which has concocted many variations of a so-called "immaculate conception" for either the mother of our Lord or for our Lord Himself. The scriptures teach that anyone who denies that Christ's flesh was in any way not of "the flesh" of Adam, is ANTICHRIST, and that is exactly what the "immaculate conception" and all variations of it (including the false "Trinity" doctrine) teach.

So all of the various forms of an "immaculate conception" are nothing more or less than demonic doctrines which purport to defend Christ's purity at the expense of the Truth of God's word which declares that Christ "was made sin for us..." (see 2 Cor 5:21 above) by being "shapen in iniquity... conceived in sin... marred in the hand of the Potter... come in corruptible flesh... and come as the son of... Adam".

Please read carfully
Joh 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

He had real flesh, blood and bone, but NO SIN was found in Him, until He took ours upon the Cross!

Joh 8:44



Ye are ofyourfather the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45



And because I tellyouthe truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46



Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47



He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hearthemnot, because ye are not of God.

The Lord said that satan and sin had NO PLACE in Him!



You should know that the blood comes from the Fathers seed in a child!
Mary was the seed of David of Adam etc.. Therefore the Blood of Christ did NOT have the sin of Adam.
Thats why the Angel of the Lord brought the Word to her and Gods own seed was placed inside of her.

 

[Atonement]

Greetings tonight in the Lord Jesus Christ

I'm trying to follow this thread but it's becoming difficult with all the large bright bold underlined print! Is there anyway we can maybe get the point across for other readers? I'm trying to be sincere, this hurts my eyes (really it does) :eeeekkk

I see many of the same Scriptures being quoted but different views on how they are interpreted (that alone can not be good in a debate), there has to come a mutual agreement of some sort. In a forum debate take it easy, slow down, take your time. Start with one verse at a time and come to an agreement on it before it's moved on.

I have a verse that I see has not been used and it's the cornerstone to this whole topic..

Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel"

Notice God didn't mention Adam here and his seed but the woman and her seed (prelude to the virgin birth) which is vital in understanding that this is why Christ was born sinless.

Thoughts?


LJ

 

[Butch5]

You have things backwards Butch.


Hebrews 2:14 "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."

Hebrews 2:14 (cited above), tells us that "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He Himself took part of the same [flesh and blood]." If it had been any other type of flesh and blood Christ could not have identified with "the children" and His sacrifice would have not been for sins committed in "the same...flesh and blood."

In the sense that Christ was "without sin" He was unlike us. But in the sense that He "took part of the same...sinful...flesh and blood," He was exactly like us.


2 Corinthians 5:16 "So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more;

2 Corinthians 5:21 "for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He made Him sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him."

Christ, because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit from His mother's womb, is the only person in history who has never sinned. Yet "He made Him sin, who did not know sin" that we, who all have sinned, "may become the righteousness of God in Him."

Christ was "the same...flesh and blood... as the children" who are his own brothers and sisters who also struggle against "the same...flesh and blood" Christ struggled with "yet without sin." Christ was no less the son of Adam, the Son of Man, than are you and I. It was only His Father in Him that kept Him from sinning in His every action, in spite of the fact that he too was "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin."


Christ was in all ways like the children

Not sure how you think I have it backwards when I didn't say anything contradictory to what you've said here. What I said was that man could not be born a sinner if Christ was made in all ways like His brethren.

 

[Free]

Is the punishment for sin death or Hell?
If it's death, why do christians still die?
If it's (an eternity in) Hell, then Jesus hasn't taken the punishment for us.

What is meant by "death" and dying? Perhaps you are using definitions which do not fit. Or perhaps "death" is referring to this age and Hell the next.

 

[Butch5]

Uh, no. We know this about the 'wicked.'

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Kinda settles the 'original sin' issue. All mankind fit the mold, save One.

Not sure how you think that settles the issue. The passage speaks of the wicked, further down David speaks of the righteous. According to David then the mold does not fit all mankind. However, what does stranged from the womb have to do with being a sinner.

There is quite a LARGE caveat to that matter that does in fact 'differentiate' God in Christ from 'all other' people:

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The fact remains that He was in all ways made like unto His brethren

Many think that because Jesus was in all points tempted 'as we are' that means Jesus had evil sinning thoughts. That was not the case.

We 'listen' to Him because His Words are PURE and UNTAINTED Words of God, contrary to the mucky muck in our own minds and hearts that we all have to deal with.

Not sure how this bears on the issue.

 

[Free]

I'm trying to follow this thread but it's becoming difficult with all the large bright bold underlined print! Is there anyway we can maybe get the point across for other readers? I'm trying to be sincere, this hurts my eyes (really it does) :eeeekkk

Agreed. One font, one size, one color but bold, underline and italics are okay.



And let's everyone make sure this is on topic. :yes

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5,



Once Jesus' righteousness is imputed to your account, there is nothing left to forgive.

There's nothing in Scripture that says Jesus' righteousness is imputed to anyone's account. A debt can be paid or forgiven, it can't be both they are mutually exclusive.

Butch5, you should know better than that.

Actually, you won't find any. There is nothing in Scripture that says a man is justified by faith alone. That's to be expected since a man is not justified by faith alone. That doctrine comes from the teaching of Martin Luther, not hte Scriptures.

You're right. There is no mention of faith in this passage, but if you don't believe it, then a person will trust in his own righteousness.

When Paul speaks of the Jews seeking their own righteousness he is speaking of their keeping the Mosaic Law. The Jews believed they were entitled to the promises made to Abraham through the Law. That is what Paul is addressing when he says the seek their own righteousness. He's not speaking of doing good deeds.

You know as well as I do that death reigns through sin. Adam's nature was passed down to his children, no? Adam was our representative in the Garden.
Romans 5:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This passage seems to support my argument. Paul said all die because all have sinned, he didn't say all die because they are judged for Adam's sins.

 

[Cassian]

Is the punishment for sin death or Hell?

Hell, but it is also called the second death, which is a spiritual death, a separation of a relationship between God and man.

If it's death, why do christians still die?

Your second question is also answered in the above statment. Our physical death has nothing to do with our sin. We became mortal due to the condemnation of deaht to Adam which is what we inherit through birth. Our abuse of our passions (sin) might cause premature physical death biologically, but death, the ability to die is the result of Adam.

If it's (an eternity in) Hell, then Jesus hasn't taken the punishment for us.

Correct, Christ did not save you from hell or the second death. Christ saved you from physical death, from annihilation, from returning to dust permanently. He did this so that God could complete the purpose of His creation. Part of which was to have an eternal relationship with man.

In fact, without Christ's birth, death, and resurrection there is no need for either hell or heaven. His reconciliation of the world created a need to have a place or a consequence for our free choice of accepting His call to come and join Him, or reject Him.

 

[Atonement]

Not sure how you think I have it backwards when I didnt' say anything contradictory to what you;ve said here. What I said was that man could not be born a sinner if Christ was made in all ways like His brethren.

Christ was in all ways like the children

Butch5 -

Greetings to you this evening in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

I want to be clear because it basically seems you are denying the virgin birth?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but then please answer this:

How can you accept the virgin birth and still believe what I highlighted above?


Psalm 51:5 Are you sure you have what Paul was trying to saying correctly answered?

1 John 1:8

Here is what Paul was saying:

Phil. 2:7 ...emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, being made in the likeness of men.

Paul is telling us because Christ became a human being, He knows what it is to be a human being. He has experienced what we experience, and knows the discomforts of this life.


2Cor. 1:4-6 Here again, Paul is stating that Christ suffered as we suffer in this life. That also ties in what Paul was saying here in Hebrews 4:15 that you kindly quoted


So it seems it's the way you're interpreting these Scriptures, or the way we are reading your post(s). But to say that man was not born a sinner.. Please show me this verse so I may study this very important key point


LJ

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Atonement,

Notice God didn't mention Adam here and his seed but the woman and her seed (prelude to the virgin birth) which is vital in understanding that this is why Christ was born sinless.

Thoughts?

Christ, through his mother, was the son of Adam, and Luke 3 considers that point so important that it traces Christ's lineage all the way back to Adam (see my previous post). Hebrews 2 and 4 tell us plainly that Christ's flesh was "the same flesh and blood" as that of Abraham and King David, and that Christ is the son of both of those men.

Hebrews 2:14 "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Hebrews 2:15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 2:16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted."


Christ is "the seed of Abraham". We all have two fathers by way of our two parents, and Christ was both Abaraham's and King David's seed by His mother Mary, and it was through Mary that Christ was the Son of Adam.

A Jesus who did not have the same flesh and blood with the same human desires of all who are in Adam, is a plastic Jesus who cannot identify with the trials we have endured and who therefore is not qualified to be our high priest and Savior, and the scriptures declare this truth:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."


Of course this does not deny the virgin birth, and of course it is true that Christ never "sinned." But the scriptures declare that Christ was "made sin... made of the same... sinful flesh and blood" that you and I are made of. This is clearly understood by any who take the time to study and see why ancient Israel was given both a "sin offering" and another offering called a "trespass offering" (the sin offering is what Christ is.)


2 Corinthians 5:21 "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

In the verse above, the words 'to be' are not in the Greek. The Greek reads "He made Him sin, who knew no sin..." How could Christ be our sin offering if He had not come in "sinful flesh and blood"? How could He be "made sin" if He had not been "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin"? How could Christ be our savior if His flesh and blood were different from ours, as the immaculate conception crowd teaches?



Christ was born from the seed of David according to the flesh. And what kind of flesh did David possess in which he would pass on to all of his offspring? David did not have sinless flesh to pass on to his children, but only sinful flesh. Thus what kind of flesh was Jesus born with and chose to live in? It was not sinless flesh, but sinful flesh.

It is important to understand that Jesus did not commit sin in order to obtain the sinful flesh of humanity, but He voluntarily took upon Himself the fallen nature the sinful flesh at birth. Since Jesus did not commit sin in order to obtain our sinful flesh, He took upon Himself the same likeness of sinful flesh which all the offspring since Adam's fall, including that which Abraham, David, and Mary possessed. So Christ took the likeness of sinful flesh upon Himself, but it was still the very same sinful flesh that you and I possess and know about.

Romans 8:3 "...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..."

 

[Atonement]

Christ, through his mother, was the son of Adam, and Luke 3 considers that point so important that it traces Christ's lineage all the way back to Adam (see my previous post). Hebrews 2 and 4 tell us plainly that Christ's flesh was "the same flesh and blood" as that of Abraham and King David, and that Christ is the son of both of those men.

Hebrews 2:14 "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Hebrews 2:15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 2:16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted."


Christ is "the seed of Abraham". We all have two fathers by way of our two parents, and Christ was both Abaraham's and King David's seed by His mother Mary, and it was through Mary that Christ was the Son of Adam.

A Jesus who did not have the same flesh and blood with the same human desires of all who are in Adam, is a plastic Jesus who cannot identify with the trials we have endured and who therefore is not qualified to be our high priest and Savior, and the scriptures declare this truth:

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."


Of course this does not deny the virgin birth, and of course it is true that Christ never "sinned." But the scriptures declare that Christ was "made sin... made of the same... sinful flesh and blood" that you and I are made of. This is clearly understood by any who take the time to study and see why ancient Israel was given both a "sin offering" and another offering called a "trespass offering" (the sin offering is what Christ is.)


2 Corinthians 5:21 "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

In the verse above, the words 'to be' are not in the Greek. The Greek reads "He made Him sin, who knew no sin..." How could Christ be our sin offering if He had not come in "sinful flesh and blood"? How could He be "made sin" if He had not been "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin"? How could Christ be our savior if His flesh and blood were different from ours, as the immaculate conception crowd teaches?



Christ was born from the seed of David according to the flesh. And what kind of flesh did David possess in which he would pass on to all of his offspring? David did not have sinless flesh to pass on to his children, but only sinful flesh. Thus what kind of flesh was Jesus born with and chose to live in? It was not sinless flesh, but sinful flesh.

It is important to understand that Jesus did not commit sin in order to obtain the sinful flesh of humanity, but He voluntarily took upon Himself the fallen nature the sinful flesh at birth. Since Jesus did not commit sin in order to obtain our sinful flesh, He took upon Himself the same likeness of sinful flesh which all the offspring since Adam's fall, including that which Abraham, David, and Mary possessed. So Christ took the likeness of sinful flesh upon Himself, but it was still the very same sinful flesh that you and I possess and know about.

Romans 8:3 "...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..."

Osgiliath -

Greetings to you in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ
I hope you have a blessed day

I appreciate you taking the time and explaining the point of view.

But this does not answer my question to Butch5 who said:

Not sure how you think I have it backwards when I didnt' say anything contradictory to what you;ve said here. What I said was that man could not be born a sinner if Christ was made in all ways like His brethren.

I'm still waiting for his reply and if he believes in the importance of the virgin birth.

 

[John 8:32]

Hell, but it is also called the second death, which is a spiritual death, a separation of a relationship between God and man.

Not what scripture says, it plainly says that the wages of sin is death, not life in some other place...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

perish:
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

destroy:
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your second question is also answered in the above statment. Our physical death has nothing to do with our sin. We became mortal due to the condemnation of deaht to Adam which is what we inherit through birth. Our abuse of our passions (sin) might cause premature physical death biologically, but death, the ability to die is the result of Adam.

Correct, Christ did not save you from hell or the second death. Christ saved you from physical death, from annihilation, from returning to dust permanently. He did this so that God could complete the purpose of His creation. Part of which was to have an eternal relationship with man.

In fact, without Christ's birth, death, and resurrection there is no need for either hell or heaven. His reconciliation of the world created a need to have a place or a consequence for our free choice of accepting His call to come and join Him, or reject Him.

 

[Cassian]

John 8:32,

Not what scripture says, it plainly says that the wages of sin is death, not life in some other place...

The human being can only die once physically. We are born dead, a mortal nature, we live a biological existance in a state of death.
The only death we can die at present due to sin is a spiritual death. A relational separation from God. This can become an eternity of separation as well.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

we also know that man will never perish, that is no longer exist since Christ redeemed the world. The purpose of our existance is to be united with God in a relationship of love. Anything outside of that perfect relationship would be perishing, or loss. Hell is the death or perishing of any relationship with God.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Again, what is being destroyed. OUr existance as human beings will never be destroyed. so the destruction is a relationship. And God is the only one that will judge man, thus be able to place people in heaven or hell.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

ONce again, no man will be destroyed as a human being. All men will be raised in the last day and will be immortal and incorruptible. I Cor 15:53.
The ONLY death we can have is spiritual, since Christ was victorious over physical death and was raised to life as well as all mankind. The eternal life being spoken of is with Christ, all other will have eternal life in hell which is a spiritual death, not a physical death.
These contrasts are used often in scripture where the purpose of Christ's redeeming work was to enable God/Christ to have an eternal relationship with man.
John 6;39 is referencing Christ's redemption or reconcilation of the world which aligns with Col 1:20 and II Cor 5:18-19. In other words everything given to Him will be raised on the last day and will have eternal life.
However, the next verse, of all those raised to eternal life, those that see and believe will have everlasting life with HIm. A huge difference.
Acts 24:15 also makes the comparision. All will be raised but where you spend your eternity is based on whether you accepted God's call to repentance and union with Him.
On the other hand to make this death physical, you would have died a long time ago with your first sin. Unless you think you have yet to sin once, thus have not died.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 -

Greetings to you this evening in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ

I want to be clear because it basically seems you are denying the virgin birth?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but then please answer this:

How can you accept the virgin birth and still believe what I highlighted above?


Psalm 51:5 Are you sure you have what Paul was trying to saying correctly answered?

1 John 1:8

Here is what Paul was saying:

Phil. 2:7 ...emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, being made in the likeness of men.

Paul is telling us because Christ became a human being, He knows what it is to be a human being. He has experienced what we experience, and knows the discomforts of this life.


2Cor. 1:4-6 Here again, Paul is stating that Christ suffered as we suffer in this life. That also ties in what Paul was saying here in Hebrews 4:15 that you kindly quoted


So it seems it's the way you're interpreting these Scriptures, or the way we are reading your post(s). But to say that man was not born a sinner.. Please show me this verse so I may study this very important key point


LJ

No, I haven't denied the virgin birth. What I've said is man cannot be born a sinner. If Christ was made in all ways like his brethren (men) as the Scriptures say and man was born a sinner then that would mean that Christ was born a sinner and we know that that is "not" the case. Christ was born sinless and remained sinless. Since He was born sinless and was like His brethren then they too were born sinless.

 

[Webb]

Ezekiel 18 (read all the chapter) is proof man is not born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

 

[smaller]

Ezekiel 18 (read all the chapter) is proof man is not born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Butch5]

Ezekiel 18 (read all the chapter) is proof man is not born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

 

[Butch5]

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isn't this speaking of the wicked?

What does it mean that they are estranged from the womb?