Death: Punishment or Grace?

[Obadiah]

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[jasonc]

I would like to discuss the topic of death and how it serves God's good purpose because I believe death is God's abounding grace and wrapped in unending love.

Genesis 2:15-17 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We often like to look at the command as a consequence, and I think this is a healthy view. Freewill means we can do anything we want, but Freewon't puts healthy boundaries around our impulses, desires and urges. As a result, Freewill also includes Freewon't. We are free NOT to do things that can harm us. In short, Freewon't litigates the consequences of an action. It's our ability to say, "Im not going to do that because it will cause harm."

In the above command it is stated clearly not to eat from the tree of knowledge, for in that day, you will die. In that day, you will bear the consequences of your action which will linger all the days of your life. There will be repercussions for your actions that will be passed down from generation to generation because we teach our values and traits to our children, who in turn teach them to their children. In That Day, the harmony Adam and Eve experienced with their surroundings would be seen in a whole new light. In that day, their relationship with God would be viewed much differently.

We see then that the action of Adam was evil when he willfully disobeyed God. Adam knew better, but he acted on his Freewill without restraint. His relationship with his wife would never be the same and their relationship with God would never be the same. They would bear the consequences of a shattered relationship and look at the world a whole new way and one doesn't have to look to far to see how we have gone from tending to this world, to exploiting it. The same can be said of relationships.

So what good purpose does Death serve? We see that disobedience to God is really an act of evil. And what is evil? Evil is that which tears down and destroys. It is destructive and causes pain, suffering. We like to think of evil as these huge horrendous acts of violence, but in reality, it can be a subtle as eating from a tree you know you shouldn't eat from because it violates trust, and without trust a relationship isn't in harmony and becomes broken. Evil changes the world around us and how we view the world around us..

Death is a picture of something coming to an end. It will be no more. Death, is the end of evil and it is a picture that evil will not reign for eternity. The days of death are numbered. Death is not immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The former things are gone, evil will be no more. Death has served it's purpose and evil will not reign for eternity.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The man Jesus died on the cross, and the man Jesus rose from the grave. Baptism is a picture of joining in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. (Romans 6:2-7). It is a picture that we are freed from death and one day, free from evil.

Death, is part of God's grace because without death, there would be no end to evil. Evil would reign for eternity and we would be void of any hope for a better world. And though death can be painful, it is good and serves God's good purpose because through death, we have an eternal hope.

ramban again? I see that you could have used suffering as well. the curse there in genesis is also for that purpose.

cursed is the ground for your sakes

death is a man whom forces us to ponder whom made us and why we have any meaning in life.

 

[stovebolts]

ramban again? I see that you could have used suffering as well. the curse there in genesis is also for that purpose. death is a man whom forces us to ponder whom made us and why we have any meaning in life.

No, these are my thoughts with inspiration from Tzi Freeman, not Ramban.
What is God's good purpose for death? Why do we suffer and what good purpose does it serve a loving God? Those are the answers I seek.

 

[stovebolts]

What death are you talking about physical or eternal? and if it's eternal then i have a question for you.

In the opening OP, I described two types of death. The obvious is physical where one dies and their bodies are laid to rest, and the other one is when we are out of harmony with our surroundings as God designed us to live. Some would call this spiritual death but the way my mind works, I feel like using the term spiritual death is too simplistic and does a poor job encompassing the breadth of the subject.
I used the example of God saying that when Adam ate from the tree of knowledge, "On that day" Adam would die... and he did die because everything changed in relationship as to how he functioned in the world around him.

I used the example of death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire. That is the end of the reign of death. Death is no more. Thus, evil is no more.
As a result, neither death or evil is eternal. Bot have a finite place in God's economy.

With this in mind, what do you mean by eternal death? If I can understand your question, I would be happy to give it my best thought.

 

[Malachi]

I would like to discuss the topic of death and how it serves God's good purpose because I believe death is God's abounding grace and wrapped in unending love.

While death does serve God's purposes, and while I do not wish to detract from your thoughts, Scripture must govern our thoughts about life and death. So what does Scripture have to say about death?
1. It is the enemy of man and must therefore be ultimately abolished (1 Cor 15:2; Rev 21:4).
2. It is the enemy of man because the second death will separate man from God eternally in Hell (Rev 20:13,14).
3. The first death is God's judgment against sin, since the end result of sin is death (Rom 5:12; 6:23; Jas 1:13-15).
4. God is life (Jn 14:6) and eternal life (1 Jn 1:1,2) therefore death is an abomination to God (Ezek 18:32).
5. Death cost God the Father the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son (Heb 10:4-10).
6. Christ tasted death for every man (Heb 2:9), therefore He offers eternal life to all mankind (Jn 3:14-17).

 

[Malachi]

[QUOTE With this in mind, what do you mean by eternal death?... .[/QUOTE]
Eternal death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. It is called the second death, as opposed to physical death, which is the first death. Death is essentially separation -- first the separation of the soul and spirit from the body, then the eternal separation of the unregenerate soul from God. But it is more that mere separation. It is eternal torment of the body and soul in Hell, which was created for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41; Rev 20:10-15; 21:8).

 

[th1b.taylor]

No, these are my thoughts with inspiration from Tzi Freeman, not Ramban.
What is God's good purpose for death? Why do we suffer and what good purpose does it serve a loving God? Those are the answers I seek.

As a man suffering the wounds of my youth and in preperation to die, I can give you a definitive answer for why the suffering. Suffering is a giant builder! Sissies have horrible deaths because they do not trust God. Many are they that when hearing my view on dying and going to Heaven that hqve replied, "Well, I want to go to Heaven also but... not right now!" These will have a horrible death, clawing for the next moment, to the very last.

I have not grown one wit that I was not suffering some trial, including this one. I like to steal the line from whoever I heard it from because I do believe there are no sissies or cowards in God's Army. Pain, suffering and determination grows strong servants and just as my sig states, I am a Bond Servant to my LORD.

For the answer to the reason for death, Read Genesis up to the Noadic Flood, sin is cured forever with death.

 

[jasonc]

No, these are my thoughts with inspiration from Tzi Freeman, not Ramban.
What is God's good purpose for death? Why do we suffer and what good purpose does it serve a loving God? Those are the answers I seek.

I haven't read anything from freeman lately. but I thought that had an all to jewish ring to it. not that its unbiblical

 

[stovebolts]

s

While death does serve God's purposes, and while I do not wish to detract from your thoughts, Scripture must govern our thoughts about life and death. So what does Scripture have to say about death?
1. It is the enemy of man and must therefore be ultimately abolished (1 Cor 15:2; Rev 21:4).).

how do you get that out of those two passages?

 

[Malachi]

how do you get that out of those two passages?

The passages are self-explanatory. However there was a typo, so sorry for the confusion. The passage is 1 Cor 15:26 (not 15:2): "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." This is God's opinion of death.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4). Death is followed by sorrow, crying, and pain, none of which are pleasant. Sorrow, crying and pain also precede death. But God did not create man for death but for life everlasting. Hence there was a tree of life in the midst of the Garden (Gen 2:9). Since Adam's disobedience barred mankind from that tree, Christ was crucified on a tree (Gal 3:13; 1 Pet 2:24) that through death He might bring eternal life to mankind (Heb 2:14:15), because mankind fears death.

 

[stovebolts]

The passages are self-explanatory. However there was a typo, so sorry for the confusion. The passage is 1 Cor 15:26 (not 15:2): "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." This is God's opinion of death.

Thanks for the clarification lol. I was scratching my head for a bit.
I see a pattern here. We see death as a show of grace in that evil has its days numbered. Death is not eternal. It will cease to exist. We see in Deuteronomy 28 that there are blessings and curses. When Israel disobeys, just like Adam disobeyed, then we see the enemies of Israel acting as God's ambassadors and Israel goes into exile and eventually end up crying out at which point they are redeemed and the enemy is defeated.
So the pattern is healthy relationship, sin, exile, repentance, redemption, reconciliation.
The enemy becomes a blessing, just like death becomes a blessing. Had the crowd not had crucified (Mt 27), Jesus would not have died on the cross. Had he not died, he would not have risen. Had he not risen, those who crucified him would not have had their hearts pricked unto repentance resulting in baptism. (acts 2)

 

[stovebolts]

2. It is the enemy of man because the second death will separate man from God eternally in Hell (Rev 20:13,14).

These passages always fascinated me.
Revelation 20:13-14 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What I find fascinating is that the Sea, Death and Hades (hell) seem to be being used as holding places for the dead. Most don't associate the sea with death, however, it represents the depths of Exodus and for the Christian, it represents Baptism. A whole picture outside of this OP could easily be developed on Kingdom and anti-Kingdom Anyway, I'm getting side tracked. Sorry.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So we see that the sea, death and hell hold the dead. That's kind of interesting in itself. But this is another neat part. Death and Hell are actually thrown into this "lake" (pond according to Strongs) of fire.
Now, if I'm reading this right, the sea, death and hell hold the dead. (verse 13 and 14). The dead are taken out of the sea, death and hell.
After this, the dead are judged upon their works and death and hell (not the dead) are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
What I find it interesting that the second death in the above passage is referring to death and hell, and not the dead.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I know I'll be deemed a heretic for what I'm about to say. So I'll start off by saying "I DON'T KNOW". I am not teacher in this area, but I do ponder things and I can't say I've settled with solid footing. In short, I did a search years ago and I couldn't find anything that said, "this is what has to happen for your name to be put into the book of life". What I found, is instance after instance of a name being blotted out because of terrible deeds with no heart toward repentance. Hitler comes to mind here. We relate the book of life to those who are able to enter into heaven and my past studies indicate that all infants, and even some who have never heard of Jesus will be judged on the law written within their hearts. King Cyrus also comes to mind. In short, I think we will be surprised when we get to heaven. Don't get me wrong here. The text clearly says that those not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. But what I want to make clear is this...

Death and Hell are no more. They have received the second death and no longer contain the dead. As for the dead, they too will be contained within the lake of fire. Something is about to change!
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Concerning the New Jerusalem,
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Sound's like God just stepped up his game. If death served God's purpose with Adam and humanity, then how does this second death serve God's good purpose? In verse 15, we have the Book of Life and in verse 27 we have the Lamb's book of life. Please note:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This brings me back to these verses.
Revelation 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
It is done.. kinda rings of "It is finished" doesn't it? This to me sounds like an altar call. Hey, I'm just thinking out loud here but if there are two books, it makes perfect sense. Those in the Book of Life now have an opportunity to accept Jesus as Lord.

But what about the dead in the lake of fire?
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
Chronologically, what is the time frame of these verse and to whom do these words apply? Were they written for us within the first death, or for those who experience the second death? Or both? If both, it causes me to pause for those experiencing the second death.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If this is for those written in the time of the new Jerusalem, then why the church (bride) along with the spirit still be doing altar calls? Wouldn't we already be drinking freely of this water?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Death is destroyed, not the dead...

 

[jasonc]

These passages always fascinated me.
Revelation 20:13-14 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead who were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What I find fascinating is that the Sea, Death and Hades (hell) seem to be being used as holding places for the dead. Most don't associate the sea with death, however, it represents the depths of Exodus and for the Christian, it represents Baptism. A whole picture outside of this OP could easily be developed on Kingdom and anti-Kingdom Anyway, I'm getting side tracked. Sorry.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So we see that the sea, death and hell hold the dead. That's kind of interesting in itself. But this is another neat part. Death and Hell are actually thrown into this "lake" (pond according to Strongs) of fire.
Now, if I'm reading this right, the sea, death and hell hold the dead. (verse 13 and 14). The dead are taken out of the sea, death and hell.
After this, the dead are judged upon their works and death and hell (not the dead) are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
What I find it interesting that the second death in the above passage is referring to death and hell, and not the dead.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I know I'll be deemed a heretic for what I'm about to say. So I'll start off by saying "I DON'T KNOW". I am not teacher in this area, but I do ponder things and I can't say I've settled with solid footing. In short, I did a search years ago and I couldn't find anything that said, "this is what has to happen for your name to be put into the book of life". What I found, is instance after instance of a name being blotted out because of terrible deeds with no heart toward repentance. Hitler comes to mind here. We relate the book of life to those who are able to enter into heaven and my past studies indicate that all infants, and even some who have never heard of Jesus will be judged on the law written within their hearts. King Cyrus also comes to mind. In short, I think we will be surprised when we get to heaven. Don't get me wrong here. The text clearly says that those not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. But what I want to make clear is this...

Death and Hell are no more. They have received the second death and no longer contain the dead. As for the dead, they too will be contained within the lake of fire. Something is about to change!
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Concerning the New Jerusalem,
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Sound's like God just stepped up his game. If death served God's purpose with Adam and humanity, then how does this second death serve God's good purpose? In verse 15, we have the Book of Life and in verse 27 we have the Lamb's book of life. Please note:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This brings me back to these verses.
Revelation 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
It is done.. kinda rings of "It is finished" doesn't it? This to me sounds like an altar call. Hey, I'm just thinking out loud here but if there are two books, it makes perfect sense.

But what about the dead in the lake of fire?
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
Chronologically, what is the time frame of these verse and to whom do these words apply? Were they written for us within the first death, or for those who experience the second death? Or both? If both, it causes me to pause for those experiencing the second death.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If this is for those written in the time of the new Jerusalem, then why the church (bride) along with the spirit still be doing altar calls? Wouldn't we already be drinking freely of this water?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Death is destroyed, not the dead...

the fact, after the book and all that is said, imho that the church and the bride is telling the reader before their death to repent.

 

[stovebolts]

the fact, after the book and all that is said, imho that the church and the bride is telling the reader before their death to repent.

I'm not following Jason.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not following Jason.

for you case to be, then sin and its curse isn't removed. all that live after the final judgement still would have sin. it also says no more death, sorrow. if there is the need for a repentence then after the judgement there is still sorrow.

 

[stovebolts]

for you case to be, then sin and its curse isn't removed. all that live after the final judgement still would have sin. it also says no more death, sorrow. if there is the need for a repentence then after the judgement there is still sorrow.

I'm not so sure Jason.
The context of Revelation is the new heaven and the new earth with the new Jerusalem as it's setting. It is reminiscent of Mt. Sinai as the failed marriage ceremony as noted in the opening verses where the mention of the bride is present nd the words you will be my people because like Mt. Sinai, there were gentiles present at the gathering who accepted the covenant. Perhaps this explains the two books being opened because for some, it will be their first face to face encounter with God.

I have thought long and hard on these verses below. They hold much hope and meaning for me.
Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

God is making a promise here. All things are new. Things aren't going to be like they now are in the old earth and old heaven. We will be with God. So I had to ask myself a question. Why do I cry deep within my soul? For me, it's when my hope has been stolen and I have nothing left to hope for. In the case of my daughter who died, those hopes and dreams are dead. It's been a year, but a new hope, a better hope has replaced the sorrow and pain associated with the old hope that has died.

Hope heals and I believe in the new Jerusalem, we will have an even greater hope. One so great that God will be present with us every step of the way.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not so sure Jason.
The context of Revelation is the new heaven and the new earth with the new Jerusalem as it's setting. It is reminiscent of Mt. Sinai as the failed marriage ceremony as noted in the opening verses where the mention of the bride is present nd the words you will be my people because like Mt. Sinai, there were gentiles present at the gathering who accepted the covenant. Perhaps this explains the two books being opened because for some, it will be their first face to face encounter with God.

I have thought long and hard on these verses below. They hold much hope and meaning for me.
Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

God is making a promise here. All things are new. Things aren't going to be like they were in the old earth and old heaven. We will be with God. So I had to ask myself a question. Why do I cry deep within my soul? For me, it's when my hope has been stolen and I have nothing left to hope for. In the case of my daughter who died, those hopes and dreams are dead. It's been a year, but a new hope, a better hope has replaced the sorrow and pain associated with the old hope that has died.

Hope heals and I believe in the new Jerusalem, we will have an even greater hope. One so great that God will be present with us every step of the way.

you are arguing like a full preterist. which means sin shall always be this side of heaven. if there is sin, there will be death and sorrow. that isn't for the jews in that imagery. remember in the book a bunch of goy are in heaven already with the 144,000 isrealites. see revelation 12, and 7

 

[stovebolts]

you are arguing like a full preterist. which means sin shall always be this side of heaven. if there is sin, there will be death and sorrow. that isn't for the jews in that imagery. remember in the book a bunch of goy are in heaven already with the 144,000 isrealites. see revelation 12, and 7

Interesting thought Jason.
But if chapter 21 is set in the New Earth and New Jerusalem, then according to God, all things are being made new. (verse 5 I make all things new.)
If all things are made new, then why are we thinking in old ways? The things from the past won't be as we know or understand them today.
In the New Jerusalem, I believe even our hope will be made new.

God makes a promise. No more death! Death has been done away with. Those who have been taken through death can never be taken by death again. You see, as long as one is alive, there is always hope for reconciliation.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Now I'm starting to sound like a universalist...

But what does the text say?
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It doesn't say there won't be any sin. Read further and we know that there will be sin, but not inside the New Jerusalem. You see, the promise of verse 4 is for those inside the city, not outside. And for those inside, I believe they will have a new hope for those outside.

 

[jasonc]

as a man that is into jewish thought. remember its a vision of john recorded but never in order. its also a commentary. side hints and side statements.

the idea is that when the city is down on the earth(without getting into if its a literal or not) that peace and death and sin are dealt with. peace reigns and god dwells with men. there can be no chance to have sin then. its done. the kids of the saints aren't sinners they are healed if they are saints. if not then the lake of fire is their home. there is no marriage in heaven. no death. the fact that you might be seeing a different view is something I would like to discuss. over the phone. text would be hard to do. but please not today. I have a car to fix, annoying thermostat and cheap one at that.

 

[stovebolts]

..

as a man that is into jewish thought. remember its a vision of john recorded but never in order. its also a commentary. side hints and side statements.

the idea is that when the city is down on the earth(without getting into if its a literal or not) that peace and death and sin are dealt with. peace reigns and god dwells with men. there can be no chance to have sin then. its done. the kids of the saints aren't sinners they are healed if they are saints. if not then the lake of fire is their home. there is no marriage in heaven. no death. the fact that you might be seeing a different view is something I would like to discuss. over the phone. text would be hard to do. but please not today. I have a car to fix, annoying thermostat and cheap one at that.

We can talk about it on Monday. I'll call you on my way home. Not sure what time it will be because they just put me in training for the next 9 weeks and Monday is my first day... Anyway, my time is up for today too. I've got to go push a friend out of a ditch... Love the snow lol. Have fun with that thermostate. Hope it's not on a grand prix lol, you almost have to take off the intake to get to it!

As more rambling thoughts with no merit,
Refiners fire
Baptism by fire
lake of fire.
Because God took on the form of a burning bush, and that bush was not consumed by God's fire. So yeah, annihilation is out of the equation lol
Never really thought about these being related though... but something for myself to look at anyway. eh, seeking, asking and knocking. Gotta love being a child of God... because honestly, who else thinks on these things lol!