Death: Punishment or Grace?

[chessman]

These passages always fascinated me.

Revelation 20:13-14

Revelation 20:14a (LEB) And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. ... ​

One thing to remember about this verse is that John's still describing his vision of the two horse riders he named Death and Hades here in v 13-14a. That's why the names are capitalized in several translations. That is, his vision was specifically of the two horse riders (he had given them the names Death and Hades in 6:8) going into The LoF.

Revelation 6:8 (LEB) And I looked, and behold, a pale green horse, and the one seated on it was named Death, and Hades followed after him. And authority was granted to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword and by famine and by pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. ​

It seems to me Rev 6:8 is talking about the literal killing of the bodies of some (1/4) of the lost.

Revelation 20:13 (LEB) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them [their 1/4], and each one was judged according to their deeds. ​

It seems to me, this is the referencing the ressurction from the dead the souls of the people killed on Earth by Death and Hades (the 1/4), is what is meant by verse 13.

As for Rev 20:14b (LEB) (which is another whole sentence):

This is the second death—the lake of fire.​

This sentence, to me, seems to be John's (thru Jesus) literal explaination of what his vision means when they [the horse riders] are thrown into the LoF. Here's why:

I've gone through Revelation and noticed this trend/pattern of John's. He states what he saw, then give it's literal meaning (so-to-speak) in several occasions:

1. Revelation 1:20 (LEB) As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands—the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. ​

He visioned stars and lampstands. They represent angels and churches. Just like he saw horse riders going into a lake of fire, that literally represents those people going to their 2nd death after their ressurection and Judgment by God.

2. Revelation 4:5 (LEB) And from the throne came out lightnings and sounds and thunders, and seven torches of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.​

He visioned torches of fire. They literally represent spirits of God.

3. Revelation 5:6-8 (LEB) ..., each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ​

He visioned incense. That vision represents literal prayers.

4. Revelation 16:13-14 (LEB) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons ​

He visioned frogs. They represent the literal spirits of demons.

Etc. ...

5.Revelation 20:14 (LEB) And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
​

He visioned two horse riders named Death and Hades being thrown into a Lake of Fire. That represents, the 2nd death of the lost's ressurected souls (their bodies and souls) in Hell. (See Matt 10:28)

Matthew 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ​

​

 

[chessman]

These passages always fascinated me.

Revelation 20:13-14

Revelation 20:14a (LEB) And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. ... ​

One thing to remember about this verse is that John's still describing his vision of the two horse riders he named Death and Hades here in v 13-14a. That's why the names are capitalized in several translations. That is, his vision was specifically of the two horse riders (he had given them the names Death and Hades in 6:8) going into The LoF.

Revelation 6:8 (LEB) And I looked, and behold, a pale green horse, and the one seated on it was named Death, and Hades followed after him. And authority was granted to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword and by famine and by pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. ​

It seems to me Rev 6:8 is talking about the literal killing of the bodies of some (1/4) of the lost.

Revelation 20:13 (LEB) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them [their 1/4], and each one was judged according to their deeds. ​

It seems to me, this is the referencing the ressurction from the dead the souls of the people killed on Earth by Death and Hades (the 1/4), is what is meant by verse 13.

As for Rev 20:14b (LEB) (which is another whole sentence):

This is the second death—the lake of fire.​

This sentence, to me, seems to be John's (thru Jesus) literal explaination of what his vision means when they [the horse riders] are thrown into the LoF. Here's why:

I've gone through Revelation and noticed this trend/pattern of John's. He states what he saw, then give it's literal meaning (so-to-speak) in several occasions:

1. Revelation 1:20 (LEB) As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands—the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. ​

He visioned stars and lampstands. They represent angels and churches. Just like he saw horse riders going into a lake of fire, that literally represents those people going to their 2nd death after their ressurection and Judgment by God.

2. Revelation 4:5 (LEB) And from the throne came out lightnings and sounds and thunders, and seven torches of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.​

He visioned torches of fire. They literally represent spirits of God.

3. Revelation 5:6-8 (LEB) ..., each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ​

He visioned incense. That vision represents literal prayers.

4. Revelation 16:13-14 (LEB) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons ​

He visioned frogs. They represent the literal spirits of demons.

Etc. ...

5.Revelation 20:14 (LEB) And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
​

He visioned two horse riders named Death and Hades being thrown into a Lake of Fire. That represents, the 2nd death of the lost's ressurected souls (their bodies and souls) in Hell. (See Matt 10:28)

Matthew 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ​

​

 

[stovebolts]

One thing to remember about this verse is that John's still describing his vision of the two horse riders he named Death and Hades here in v 13-14a. That's why the names are capitalized in several translations. That is, his vision was specifically of the two horse riders (he had given them the names Death and Hades in 6:8) going into The LoF.

Ahhhh, duh! This makes since. Hades was the brother of Zues and was the ruler of "Hades", which was his "kingdom". John is doing something similar with Death.

So really, can we can look at this as a the Kings aka for the the abode, or lands of Death and Hades have been thrown into the lake of fire. It's almost as if the two kings have been captured.
Do you think this has anything to do with Armageddon and as it relates to Meggido (The valley of Jezreal)? (2Kings 23:29-30, 2Chronicles 35:20-35)?

 

[stovebolts]

He visioned two horse riders named Death and Hades being thrown into a Lake of Fire. That represents, the 2nd death of the lost's ressurected souls (their bodies and souls) in Hell. (See Matt 10:28)

Matthew 10:28 (LEB) And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I noticed that Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnon here. I'm sure you know the rich history of this location. It seems to me that this points to earthly empire building and the destruction it causes. Eventually, it leads to Death and Hades becoming your king... Does that sound like it's moving in the right direction to you?
Thanks!

 

[jasonc]

..
We can talk about it on Monday. I'll call you on my way home. Not sure what time it will be because they just put me in training for the next 9 weeks and Monday is my first day... Anyway, my time is up for today too. I've got to go push a friend out of a ditch... Love the snow lol. Have fun with that thermostate. Hope it's not on a grand prix lol, you almost have to take off the intake to get to it!

As more rambling thoughts with no merit,
Refiners fire
Baptism by fire
lake of fire.
Because God took on the form of a burning bush, and that bush was not consumed by God's fire. So yeah, annihilation is out of the equation lol
Never really thought about these being related though... but something for myself to look at anyway. eh, seeking, asking and knocking. Gotta love being a child of God... because honestly, who else thinks on these things lol!

you forgot, ya jewophile, the ze jews teach that sheol has the lowest level with a fiery torment and I have finished with the car.

 

[TimothyW]

Because God took on the form of a burning bush, and that bush was not consumed by God's fire. So yeah, annihilation is out of the equation lol

This does not logically follow. Does the burning bush indicate that Nothing is ever consumed by fire? Is a burning bush that is not consumed remarkable for that fact or unremarkable? If a bush is set on fire is it usually consumed by fire or not consumed by fire? Also If you read the account in Greek, you can see that the bush is "ou katakaieto", not consumed. Therefore katakaieto means consumed. If you look at the word in the new testament in Matthew 3:12, the chaff will be katakausei, consumed.
So the Exodus passage taken with Matthew confirms Annihilation.

The fate of the wicked is precisely the opposite of that of the bush which was not consumed by fire. I hope this helps.

 

[stovebolts]

you forgot, ya jewophile, the ze jews teach that sheol has the lowest level with a fiery torment and I have finished with the car.

ha ha lol!
Well, I've actually spent a few hours today tracking a few things. I started in 1 Kings 9, worked back to Judges 4 and 5, forward to 2 Chronicles 35:20
Joshua 17:16
Hosea 1:1-5
Revelation 16:16

Then... 1 Kings 9
2 Kings 3:26
2 chronicles 28:3
Jeremiah 19:4
Jeremiah 32:35
Mt. 10:28
Luke 12:4
Revelation 6:8
Revelation 20

1 Kings 8 (666)
Revelation 13:16
Daniel 7

Lots of crazy thoughts about systemic sin and Empire, Exile, Exodus and crying out which God always hears and the enemy is destroyed.

 

[jasonc]

ha ha lol!
Well, I've actually spent a few hours today tracking a few things. I started in 1 Kings 9, worked back to Judges 4 and 5, forward to 2 Chronicles 35:20
Joshua 17:16
Hosea 1:1-5
Revelation 16:16

Then... 1 Kings 9
2 Kings 3:26
2 chronicles 28:3
Jeremiah 19:4
Jeremiah 32:35
Mt. 10:28
Luke 12:4
Revelation 6:8
Revelation 20

1 Kings 8 (666)
Revelation 13:16
Daniel 7

Lots of crazy thoughts about systemic sin and Empire, Exile, Exodus and crying out which God always hears and the enemy is destroyed.

well i will discuss the position of torment in judiasm over the phone and this but its seems you might be a preterist. there is more but that is on your position the new city which some teach today as a symbol of worship and its inclusion of the saints only. i wish i could find the audio teachings on that by tullian davichian .his church is called new Jerusalem.

 

[chessman]

Do you think this has anything to do with Armageddon and as it relates to Meggido (The valley of Jezreal)? (2Kings 23:29-30, 2Chronicles 35:20-35)?

Yes. The similarities are striking throughout those past events as compared to Revelation's depiction of future events. Way to numerous to list out and discuss in a reasonable length post.

I noticed that Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnon here. I'm sure you know the rich history of this location. It seems to me that this points to earthly empire building and the destruction it causes. Eventually, it leads to Death and Hades becoming your king... Does that sound like it's moving in the right direction to you?

Yes. I think John was given the names of "Death" and "Hades" for these horse riders for a specific reason. And not just because of future earthly empire building, but the out-right worship of the earth, the sun, the moon, and other creations of God too.

2 Kings 23:11 (LEB) He kept the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun from coming to the temple of Yawheh at the side room of Nathan-Melech the eunuch, which was in the court; and the chariots of the sun he burned with fire.​

What goes around, comes around, evidently.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes. The similarities are striking throughout those past events as compared to Revelation's depiction of future events. Way to numerous to list out and discuss in a reasonable length post.
Yes. I think John was given the names of "Death" and "Hades" for these horse riders for a specific reason. And not just because of future earthly empire building, but the out-right worship of the earth, the sun, the moon, and other creations of God too.

2 Kings 23:11 (LEB) He kept the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun from coming to the temple of Yawheh at the side room of Nathan-Melech the eunuch, which was in the court; and the chariots of the sun he burned with fire.​

What goes around, comes around, evidently.

Nice! Good stuff and thank you!