A
Adams son
Guest
KnarfKS said:
IN Calvinism he most certainly does.
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IN Calvinism he most certainly does.
S
Shana
Guest
Will all be drawn to Jesus one day? Does this not suggest some type of force? Will not all be made subject to Him? Does this not suggest some type of force? Is it wrong for the Creator to say that every knee will bow and that every tongue will confess profess, swear allegiance to Him? Is it wrong for Him to accomplish this? Is it wrong for the Potter to make whatever He desires out of the clay? Is it His clay?
Now, if God elected certain individuals for eternal hell before their birth, then how can He be said to be the Savior of all men? Isn't this a contradiction? How can He be said to be their Savior if He has decided to leave certain individuals in their sinful state without any opportunity for salvation? How would it be kind and merciful to predetermine certain individuals to an eternal hell without any opportunity for salvation? I mean, here He is, before the eons of time, seeing beginning to end , intending to create the mass of humanity to burn forever in an eternal hell, without any opportunity for salvation, yet He is described as agape love, good, merciful, kind, righeous, just. . Is God a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? God bless.
Now, if God elected certain individuals for eternal hell before their birth, then how can He be said to be the Savior of all men? Isn't this a contradiction? How can He be said to be their Savior if He has decided to leave certain individuals in their sinful state without any opportunity for salvation? How would it be kind and merciful to predetermine certain individuals to an eternal hell without any opportunity for salvation? I mean, here He is, before the eons of time, seeing beginning to end , intending to create the mass of humanity to burn forever in an eternal hell, without any opportunity for salvation, yet He is described as agape love, good, merciful, kind, righeous, just. . Is God a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? God bless.
E
evanman
Guest
Everyone is destined to hell ere they repent and believe in Jesus.
A
Adams son
Guest
evanman said:
Not in Calvinism.
D
Dean
Guest
I really don't want to log in on this one - you Predestinarians and Free-Will Theists can slug it out on your own.
I DO want to say two things:
1) My wife's Grandfather was from Armenia, and that made him...
ARMENIAN.
2) I used to follow the doctrine that man's free-will, and not God's Sovereign will, ultimately determined his salvation, a line of thinking well argued by a certain Jacobus Arminus. That made me...
ARMINIAN
There may be Armenians who are Arminian, and vice versa, but we should try to keep our theology and ethnicity separate.
I DO want to say two things:
1) My wife's Grandfather was from Armenia, and that made him...
ARMENIAN.
2) I used to follow the doctrine that man's free-will, and not God's Sovereign will, ultimately determined his salvation, a line of thinking well argued by a certain Jacobus Arminus. That made me...
ARMINIAN
There may be Armenians who are Arminian, and vice versa, but we should try to keep our theology and ethnicity separate.
Grace Doctrine view:
All men are born sinners and are on there way to hell.
God, to show His Mercy is going to save some on His appointed time based on His election before the foundations of the world.
God does not owe us salvation, it is a gift.
Because we are dead (look up the word dead) we cannot accept Christ on our own. The Holy Spirit convicts sinners at the hearing of the Word of God preached.
Scripture speaks of the absolute sin of man:
Somethings you should know before you continue this attack on what 'you' believe a calvinist believes. http://www.geocities.com/cfpchurch/avoi ... usion.html
All men are born sinners and are on there way to hell.
God, to show His Mercy is going to save some on His appointed time based on His election before the foundations of the world.
God does not owe us salvation, it is a gift.
Because we are dead (look up the word dead) we cannot accept Christ on our own. The Holy Spirit convicts sinners at the hearing of the Word of God preached.
Scripture speaks of the absolute sin of man:
- 1/ Sinners are utterly helpless to redeem themselves or to contribute anything meritorious toward their own salvation (Rom 8:7-8).
2/ God is sovereign in the exercise of His saving Will (Eph 1:4-5).
3/ Christ died as a substitute who bore the full weight of God's wrath on behalf of His people, and his atoning work is efficacious for their salvation (Isa. 53:5).
4/ God's saving purpose cannot be thwarted (John 6:37), meaning none of Christ's true sheep will ever be lost (John 10:27-29).
That is because 5/ God assures the perseverance of His elect (Jude 24; Phil 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5).
Somethings you should know before you continue this attack on what 'you' believe a calvinist believes. http://www.geocities.com/cfpchurch/avoi ... usion.html
One more thing about election:
- 1/ Out of fallen humanity God chose certain persons unto salvation. God elects people.
2/ The number of God's elect is fixed.
3/ God does not elect individuals based on foreseen merit (He is not a respecter of persons) of any kind, including faith. Election is an act of God's sovereign choice.
4/ God's election and calling are invincible.
5/ The purpose and motive of God's election are His glory, "To the praise of His glorious grace!"
D
Dean
Guest
All right, I was reading through the Gospel of John last night, and this jumped out at me.
Though Jason and I disagree on a fundamental aspect of "election" - - whether our election is merely to "salvation", or whether we are 'elected' to serve God in this age, as Israel was 'elected' to serve God in the pre-Messianic age - - the fact that our Redemption springs solely from God's grace is, I believe, irrefutable.
John 1:12, 13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. "
Though Jason and I disagree on a fundamental aspect of "election" - - whether our election is merely to "salvation", or whether we are 'elected' to serve God in this age, as Israel was 'elected' to serve God in the pre-Messianic age - - the fact that our Redemption springs solely from God's grace is, I believe, irrefutable.
John 1:12, 13 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. "
A
Adams son
Guest
Jason said:
Oh really? And what is that Irresistable Grace doctrine all about? Do you not insist that God drags people to Christ?
No, I've never ever posted that. I've never read any Calvinist write anything like that. 
: Don't you feel silly for not understanding the topic you say you deny?
Calvinists DO believe that human kind can resist the Holy Spirit, even the elect can resist the Holy Spirit, until the time the Spirit regenerates their heart so that resistance to God is no more. The non elect effectively resist Him all their lives and that's why they are punished. That's the problem with sin and so-called free will. We freely, because of sin, deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
Calvinists DO NOT believe that mankind is brought kicking and screaming irresistibly to Christ. We believe in irresistible grace. The will is not passed by in salvation and no man ever came to Christ unwillingly, or regretted that he had been brought. When we are set free by the work of the Holy Spirit to see the offer of the Gospel, we accept it freely.
Read up before you go blowing you top off, you don't understand the Doctrines of Grace.
jason
: Don't you feel silly for not understanding the topic you say you deny?Calvinists DO believe that human kind can resist the Holy Spirit, even the elect can resist the Holy Spirit, until the time the Spirit regenerates their heart so that resistance to God is no more. The non elect effectively resist Him all their lives and that's why they are punished. That's the problem with sin and so-called free will. We freely, because of sin, deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
Calvinists DO NOT believe that mankind is brought kicking and screaming irresistibly to Christ. We believe in irresistible grace. The will is not passed by in salvation and no man ever came to Christ unwillingly, or regretted that he had been brought. When we are set free by the work of the Holy Spirit to see the offer of the Gospel, we accept it freely.
Read up before you go blowing you top off, you don't understand the Doctrines of Grace.
jason
M
Mac0486
Guest
Dean said:
I'm confused, i thought the 2 were the same.
Dean said:
Amen!
A
Adams son
Guest
Jason said:No, I've never ever posted that. I've never read any Calvinist write anything like that.
Calvinists DO believe that human kind can resist the Holy Spirit, even the elect can resist the Holy Spirit, until the time the Spirit regenerates their heart so that resistance to God is no more. The non elect effectively resist Him all their lives and that's why they are punished. That's the problem with sin and so-called free will. We freely, because of sin, deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
Calvinists DO NOT believe that mankind is brought kicking and screaming irresistibly to Christ. We believe in irresistible grace. The will is not passed by in salvation and no man ever came to Christ unwillingly, or regretted that he had been brought. When we are set free by the work of the Holy Spirit to see the offer of the Gospel, we accept it freely.
Read up before you go blowing you top off, you don't understand the Doctrines of Grace.
jason
Does anyone have a choice whether or not God will regenerate them?
Hmmmmm?
Let's find out who doesn't know what they are talking about.
D
Dean
Guest
I'm confused, i thought the 2 were the same.
Mac -
In the interest of Full Disclosure, I'm a Reconciliationist.
The quickest way to communitcate that is I'm a Calvinist who believes in Universal Atonement, a "TUUIP" Calvinist.
My point about the PURPOSE of election is the same as Israel's - they shared (I believe) the current Church's misapprehension - that they were "elected" for anything other than SERVICE. "Hey, we're Israel, YHWH's people, and (as Steve Martin would say) YOU'RE NOT!!!"
They were God's people to bring His message to Earth and ALL the nations. Similarly, we are "as sheep to be slaughtered", bringing God's message in this sinful and adulterous age. It's not about US - we were irresistably drawn to God, for Noble purpose, to serve him and our fellow creatures, serving God by loving our neighbor, even if we are persecuted and spat upon for so doing. The greatest of all shall be the servant of all.
Mac -
In the interest of Full Disclosure, I'm a Reconciliationist.
The quickest way to communitcate that is I'm a Calvinist who believes in Universal Atonement, a "TUUIP" Calvinist.
My point about the PURPOSE of election is the same as Israel's - they shared (I believe) the current Church's misapprehension - that they were "elected" for anything other than SERVICE. "Hey, we're Israel, YHWH's people, and (as Steve Martin would say) YOU'RE NOT!!!"
They were God's people to bring His message to Earth and ALL the nations. Similarly, we are "as sheep to be slaughtered", bringing God's message in this sinful and adulterous age. It's not about US - we were irresistably drawn to God, for Noble purpose, to serve him and our fellow creatures, serving God by loving our neighbor, even if we are persecuted and spat upon for so doing. The greatest of all shall be the servant of all.
M
Mac0486
Guest
You believe in Universal Atonement?!? As in nobody goes to hell?!?
I'm sorry...
I'm sorry...
A
Adams son
Guest
Mac0486 said:
What does a provision for everyone have to do with nobody going to hell?
S
Shana
Guest
And he chooses others to burn in an never ending hell, and this before they had done any wrong?
What about this Jason?
"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.. (1 Timothy 4:10)
God bless.
D
Dean
Guest
Mac -
Universal Atonement means Christ's DEATH atoned for all - in other words it was an efficacious sacrifice intended to PROVIDE ransom for ALL SINS. Whether or not individual humans avail themselves of this ransom is a separate (but equally controversial!!) discussion.
Many mainstream Christians believe in Universal Atonement. In fact, Limited Atonement is perhaps the single most controversial element of Calvinist doctrine, as I believe my brother Jason will affirm. Limited Atonement implies that Christ's atoning WORK was INTENDED and efficacious only for God's Elect.
This I would hold as a "derivative" tenet within Calvinist doctrine. By that I mean, very very few humans would read the Bible and come away with the prima facia belief in Limited Atonement. Rather, it is "derived" from the very strong view of God's Sovereignty propounded (properly) by Calvinism, and the very rigorous logical construct Calvinism creates.
God's Sovereignty demands that God accomplishes all that He sovereignly intends. Therefore, if
A) God had INTENDED for Christ's blood to effectively save all, well,
God is Sovereign, therefore
B) All would be saved.
BUT "We can see" that all in fact are not saved, therefore...
God must NOT have intended Christ's blood for all.
If A) is true, then B) is true. Since B) is not true, then A) is not true..
I put "we can see" in quotes because both Calvin and Augustine used this phrase (the evidence of the eyes) as the cornerstone for Limited Atonement. Unfortunately, leaving aside the marvellous logical integrity of the argument above, you still battle uphill in most PURELY SCRIPTURAL disputes of Limited v. Universal Atonement.
Universal Atonement means Christ's DEATH atoned for all - in other words it was an efficacious sacrifice intended to PROVIDE ransom for ALL SINS. Whether or not individual humans avail themselves of this ransom is a separate (but equally controversial!!) discussion.
Many mainstream Christians believe in Universal Atonement. In fact, Limited Atonement is perhaps the single most controversial element of Calvinist doctrine, as I believe my brother Jason will affirm. Limited Atonement implies that Christ's atoning WORK was INTENDED and efficacious only for God's Elect.
This I would hold as a "derivative" tenet within Calvinist doctrine. By that I mean, very very few humans would read the Bible and come away with the prima facia belief in Limited Atonement. Rather, it is "derived" from the very strong view of God's Sovereignty propounded (properly) by Calvinism, and the very rigorous logical construct Calvinism creates.
God's Sovereignty demands that God accomplishes all that He sovereignly intends. Therefore, if
A) God had INTENDED for Christ's blood to effectively save all, well,
God is Sovereign, therefore
B) All would be saved.
BUT "We can see" that all in fact are not saved, therefore...
God must NOT have intended Christ's blood for all.
If A) is true, then B) is true. Since B) is not true, then A) is not true..
I put "we can see" in quotes because both Calvin and Augustine used this phrase (the evidence of the eyes) as the cornerstone for Limited Atonement. Unfortunately, leaving aside the marvellous logical integrity of the argument above, you still battle uphill in most PURELY SCRIPTURAL disputes of Limited v. Universal Atonement.
M
Mac0486
Guest
thank u for clarifying. forgive me.