Destined from birth… for Hell!!!

[JM]

If a child is crying and cold out in the dead of winter and I am inside with warm clothes laid out on the bed, a hot meal on the table. I say that I am this child's friend, that I am this child's Savior, but I never intend to call this child inside, how can I be their Savior? I never intended to call this child from the very beginning, yet I am still said to be his or her Savior? It is a contradiction.God bless.

It's a contradiction? Really? "Follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14). If God commands holiness, then it is very important for us to find out what it is and obey Him in that respect. First, a sinful human being can neither become holy nor remain that way short of a miracle of God. But, "With God all things are possible" (Mark 9:23). Furthermore, it is required by God's commandment in 1 Peter 1:13-19 and other places.

The Bible teaches that sinners are children of the Devil, they do not seek God, they hate God and want nothing to do with Him. The Bible tells us: "They have hated me without a cause." Proverbs 29:10 says, "The bloodthirsty hate the upright..." We end up acting as brute beasts attempting to perserve our sinful pleasures (Jude 10,11). We lash out at God's Truth when it brings us into the knowledge that our sinful ways will only result in death and destruction.

1 John 3:12 says, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Pr 29:10 says, "The bloodthirsty hate the upright...,."

Jude 10,11, says "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain..."

Do you still believe the sinner wants to be saved? God created Adam and Eve knowing they would sin and send all mankind into a fallen state, yet, God still created them. You'd have to answer that question for yourself.

jason

 

[Shana]

It's a contradiction? Really?

Yes, it is a contradiction to say that one is a Savior of men and then withhold the means to salvation for them.

"Follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14). If God commands holiness, then it is very important for us to find out what it is and obey Him in that respect. First, a sinful human being can neither become holy nor remain that way short of a miracle of God. But, "With God all things are possible" (Mark 9:23). Furthermore, it is required by God's commandment in 1 Peter 1:13-19 and other places.

Yes.

The Bible teaches that sinners are children of the Devil, they do not seek God, they hate God and want nothing to do with Him. The Bible tells us: "They have hated me without a cause." Proverbs 29:10 says, "The bloodthirsty hate the upright..." We end up acting as brute beasts attempting to perserve our sinful pleasures (Jude 10,11). We lash out at God's Truth when it brings us into the knowledge that our sinful ways will only result in death and destruction.



1 John 3:12 says, "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous."

Pr 29:10 says, "The bloodthirsty hate the upright...,."

Jude 10,11, says "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain..."

Do you still believe the sinner wants to be saved?

Have you ever been a sinner Jason? Did Jesus Christ die for you? Did you want to be saved when you were a sinner? If you did, why do you think this happened, this desire to be saved?

God created Adam and Eve knowing they would sin and send all mankind into a fallen state, yet, God still created them. You'd have to answer that question for yourself.

I have answered this many times. God has a purpose for man falling into sin. For example, how can we know goodness and righteousnes and appreciate this without the contrast? How can we fully appreciate the sacrifice and realize the depth and nature of God's love for us without the experiencing what would call forth their display? The gift of God's Son for sinners reveals the heart of God to us. I believe that God purposed for this to happen to teach us and show us somthing about Himself and mold us into what He would have us to be. It is a part of our development as we are being transformed into His image. God bless you.

 

[JM]

Yes, it is a contradiction to say that one is a Savior of men and then withhold the means to salvation for them.

Just like your wrote, Jesus is the Savior of men, not all man. His blood was shed for many, not all. Jesus only prays for those who the Father has given Him, He does not pray for the world.

I won't go on with you like this, it's become so trivial and God's holiness is a game to you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

At least you're more consistent then the rest of the Arminians on this forum. ;-)

 

[Shana]

Here is the passage, Jason.



10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)

and Jesus gave Himself as a rensom for all men.

By the way, I am not an Arminian as I am not a believer in total free will, but I think you knew that! ;-)

God bless.

 

[Mac0486]

I guess my question is; what difference does it make whether there is election or not? ALL who want heaven will listen to JESUS on how we can get there. Those who do not want it, don't have to seek Christ. Since none of us knows if we are called or not, then we are completely and totally accountable for our response to God.

You make a very good point Heidi. If we are Christians than whether or not we were “chosen†isn’t going to affect our salvation (Although I do realize that other arguments between Calvinist and Armenians does, the specific argument of election does not.). And when it comes to witnessing I would hope that we don’t witness based on whether or not we are chosen but rather on a commandment that was given by Jesus Christ and can be found at the end of the book of Matthew.

Having said that, I don’t believe that the debate is completely unnecessary:

2 Tim. 2:15
“15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.â€Â

The bible clearly points out that we are to love knowledge. I love reading all of yall’s posts, and I love debates, not because I like to argue, but because I love learning. To go one step further, the concept of me being chosen shows how much God cares for me. The faith, belief, and trust I have in God I wouldn’t even have if it wasn’t for God’s grace. A revelation that I’ve had just recently is this: I shouldn’t see Calvinism as something that divides Christians, but rather as a theology that helps me realize just how helplessly I am dependent on God. He has chosen me! Whether or not you believe that is irrelevant. I am a product of His grace and God doesn’t even have to use me for His glory, but He wants too. Now, that’s exciting!

 

[Mac0486]

okay, sorry. i know that probably didn't accomplish much in wake of my original question, but i felt compelled to answer his question.


So far the majority seems to think that He didn't...

 

[Shana]

Do you believe that those who want Jesus want to because God has predetermined to want Jesus? Do you believe that God has softened the hearts of certain individuals to receive and chosen to leave others in a state of sin? Do you believe that God sees beginning to end? What does Romans 9:11-21 mean to you? God bless you.


Again, Shana, what difference does it make? Since none of us knows whether or not we are called, we are again completely responsible for our acceptance or rejection of him. As jesus said; "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of their sins. Now however they are without excuse." When we go into a different state where we don't know the laws and then break them we will still have to pay the penalty, although it will be lighter because of our ignorance. But once we've heard the laws, then if we break them, it becomes willful and deliberate. The penalty will then be greater. God and satan are invisible to unbelevers. Therefore, they attribute their decisions to their human mind.s. They are thus accountable for them.

It makes a difference, Heidi, because here we have God (who is described as just, righteous, merciful, holy, compassionate and love) creating millions upon millions of His offspring with the intent of sending them straight into an eternal hell with no hope of salvation. He has no intent of rescuing them from this fate because they are not called or elected or predestined by Him to be saved. They are in fact created to burn eternally , through no fault of their own, if God never intends to call them.

It is a contradiction because God is said to be the Savior of all men and the wages of sin is death, not eternal hell. God bless.

 

[Shana]

If God has predestined individuals for eternal hell:

"Would it not be much safer to be born as an animal rather than as a human being? An animal at least is not in danger of eternal damnation, even if it has a hard time during its life. Is it possible to even consider the eternal torment of infants? If we deny this, then heaven must be populated mostly with infants. The death rate of infants was, until lately, as high as 25%, perhaps even higher in earlier eras. Then there must be billions of infants of the yellow, black and brown races in heaven, but no grown people, for missionaries did not reach them much until lately. Why does God allow the reduction of the infant death rate, since this robs Him of millions of souls? All means to hinder the birth of children should then be blessed. All endeavors to save children, such as orphanages, etc., would be doing a bad work, for experience shows that only a fraction are converted in later life.

How could God say to Adam that he would die if he ate of the fruit, instead of telling him that he, as well as his posterity, would go to an everlasting hell? How can we understand that God took a whole tribe for Himself out of Israel, called them holy and had them minister in the holy places, when He knew that only a fraction of them would be converted? If we believe many distinct passages in the Bible, there is not the least hope for the majority in Israel, or the heathen, or children. But then it is incomprehensible how God could spare Nineveh, people who could not discern between their right hand and their left. And here it was only a question of a temporary catastrophe, not eternal hell.

If Christ could say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," then there must be some hope for the ignorant. In that case, would it not be better to leave all in darkness? How is it possible to understand God's attitude to the power of sin? He allows it to be inherited, but not grace and life. Should not everyone at least be born neutral and have an opportunity to decide, like Adam? Should all not have some light, like Adam, who had had communion with God? Not even Adam, who had so much light, was threatened with hell. How can God send those to hell who never had the light or the choice which Adam had?

The Bible seems one vast chaos, beyond understanding, full of contradictions. An omnipotent God from Whom the devil takes nearly everything! Who knows all beforehand, yet hinders nothing! Who allows everything which must destroy billions! Who is concerned with the cattle in Nineveh, Whose Son is moved with compassion when He sees a mourning widow or a blind beggar, and yet invents a hell of fire and keeps it going for all eternity..."

S.K. Torturing Doubts (not sure of date or authorship)

God bless.

 

[Shana]

Sorry, Mac, I just saw your initial post in which you requested that UR's not post here. I don't think that any of my posts touched on the subject of UR, but if there was a problem with my posts, I apologize for posting here. God bless.

 

[Mac0486]

Shana,
its all gravy. i guess that "UR" means universal reconciliation. However, i may have used the wrong terminology in my post. I did say "No Universalist" but what i meant was nobody that believes all (literally ALL)go to heaven. This forum obviously does not concern them (in which i might add that i'm under the conviction that they have been completely mislead). If you do not believe this, assuming that this was the only rule that you had a problem with, then post away!

 

[Shana]

Hi Mac, I am a Christian Universalist, so I don't fit your qualifications for posting. I do believe that we UR's can post in this forum and that we do belong here as any other group of Christians which wishes to discuss theology.. The subject of UR is not to be discussed, however, for now on the forums.. Did you mean to say that you wish us to honor your request that we don't post on this thread? I can't speak for others but I can abide by that. Thanks anyway and God bless you.

 

[Jcharlesscott]

I would recommend the following reading to anyone who is truly concerned with learning and not simply arguing for argument sake.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topi ... wills.html

This article truly and acurately portrays the beliefs of most reformed scholars.

Just for your consideration.

 

[Jcharlesscott]

Clavin's writings are available for study...

I thought perhaps since Calvin's teachings are the central point of contention in this debate, perhaps those of you who have not read what Calvin truly taught would like to see this.

You can access and read Calvin's commentaries on scripture at:

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

This is a complete on-line reference to Calvin's Commentaries. Scroll to the bottom of the page and click away. I would highly suggest reading what John Calvin says he believes and not what anyone else says he believes. Particularly interesting is Rom. 9! In fact look up all the tricky verses of debate and see what the man actually taught in his own words.

In fact I would recommend this to Calvinist or Arminian or anyone in between...call me crazy, but I have always preferred the source, rather than popular opinion. I feel some honest reflection needs to take place in men's hearts. If you are a "Calvinist" and you disagree with what is written than perhaps you should reevaluate your desire or claim to be so. If you are not and you find yourself agreeing with things you read, perhaps you need to reevaluate. Most often these labels are far more rigid by our definition than what the true authors themselves taught.

Just trying to help.

 

[Mac0486]

so i suppose that a reformist is just another word for calvinist then? i never could figure that out. But i'm sure that its not quite the same as calvinism even if they are very similar. I do wish to stay on topic in this forum though so if u would like to clearify for me please go ahead but lets get back to the original question after that.

thanx!

 

[Imblessed]

so i suppose that a reformist is just another word for calvinist then? i never could figure that out. But i'm sure that its not quite the same as calvinism even if they are very similar. I do wish to stay on topic in this forum though so if u would like to clearify for me please go ahead but lets get back to the original question after that.

thanx!

I beleive it goes something like this----all reformers are calvinists, but not all calvinists are reformers.....

makes sense? From what I'm gathering(and I'm fairly new at this) the reformed also hold other views that strict 5-point calvinists may not. Calvinism deals primarily with soveignity of God and his Will--the 5 points---. Those who call themselves reformed also have other beliefs outside "calvinism".

Ummm let's see....the reformed is more like a denomininational thing whereas Calvinism by itself is more of a theology that crosses denominational barriers...does that make better sense?


But on the to original OP. Unlike many reformed and Calvinists---I'm leaning myself to the idea of Hell not being an everlasting torture for the dammed. Part of my reasoning is of course, my own sense of justice, which is obviously not even close to God's Justice---but also due to the fact that we are the only ones promised everlasting life. If the unsaved are to be tormented forever in hell, then they would have everlasting life also(even though it would be horrible, it's still life) The wages of sin is death--spiritual death. the whole ashes to ashes, dust to dust thing. I know that our sin deserves punishment, but I just don't see the whole eternity punishment thing....
my opinion though.....

since I've become a calvinist, i've had to think about it alot.....but I haven't done much real "study" on it yet. I'm still to busy trying to get a handle on the reformed and calvinistic views to deal with hell right now.

 

[Jcharlesscott]

Almost right...

I didn't think I was getting off topic here...I apologize...I thought the topic was whether or not some are destined to Hell from birth, more to the point from the creation of the world. Seing as only the teachings of Calvin refer to this, I thought I was "on topic".

To move to our other question, Calvinism is a nickname for the theology of the reformed church movement. It is not possible to be a Calvinist and not be reformed. They are two words for the same concepts. If by Calvinist you mean you agree with the five points, then I would heartily recommend reading a bit more of Calvins writings, because:

1. John Calvin was dead long before the TULIP was ever conceived of.
2. TULIP was created at the Council of Dort to specifically refute the claims of the Arminian Party in the "Remonstrance".

Calvins Theological system was nothing new in his time he was merely the one to write it down for the masses. Much like Luther translating the Bible into German. Calvin Institutes of Christian religion is over 1000 pages of script. Not to mention his Commentaries. TULIP typically takes less than a page to describe.

And lest I move off topic again has anyone read Proverbs 16:4?

I apologize if I appear cynical, but this site is not the end all of theological knowledge. Often what is passed on to others as Calvinism or what have you is grossly inaccurate.

God Bless

 

[JM]

I think it's time to look back at the posts that have been made and ask, 'which posts are Biblical and which are emotional...'

God bless

 

[Dean]

Luke 15:8“Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.â€Â

Our Lord shows us - it is clearly Biblical to be emotional over the fate of the lost.

Music is the interaction of the study and practice of the written work, AND emotion. Scripture is the musical notes on the page - we have to sing it, breath it in and out to let our lives resonate in harmony with the Character of God.

God calls us to become engaged and involved, to be musicians, but we prefer safety and detachment, and become music critics.

 

[Mac0486]

sorry Dean. i do see u'r point but i believe Scripture is the final authority. the Holy Spirit does live within me and directs me beyond that but He has also directed me to believe that Scripture is to be taken at face value. i would have to agree with Jason on this one.

 

[Dean]

Mac, I can read your posts all day and night, and I'll never TRULY know you until we meet face to face. Your voice, your inflection, the expression on your face can change everything. You can say "I'm gonna kill you!" to your wife right after she gives you an unbelievable birthday present, or right before you commit a felony - same words.

You and I could both read a note from your mother - I could study and study it and never understand its nuance the way you, who know her intimately, can in 2 minutes.

Sola Scriptura? Sola Deo! The Bible is the dearest Gift we have, but it is not the Giver of Life. It isn't a member of the Trinity. We don't worship a book, we worship the Risen Lord. He is REVEALED through scripture, but He is not contained in words, His IS the Word.

Remember, the Pharisees studied Scripture (in the Hebrew) in a way that makes us look like rank dilettantes, but they didn't zealously seek the heart of GOD behind the words. Therefore Jesus said "You ERR because you know not the Scriptures". This must have been a terrible rebuke to them, but TRUE scriptural knowledge comes from experiencing the CHARACTER of God.

A simple proof: How else could Jesus have summed up all of Scriptures in TWO COMMANDMENTS?