Destined from birth… for Hell!!!

[Mac0486]

Are some predestined for Hell then?

 

[Adams son]

Are some predestined for Hell then?

Well yes.

It depends what brand of Calvy you are talking to.

Some Calvinists say God (before creation) predestines some to hell (the reprobate) and some to heaven (the elect). He ACTIVELY chooses them for hell. this is called double predestination among Calvinists.

Others say God does not predestine anyone to hell but predestines only certain people to heaven (elect). Here, God PASSIVELY passes them by for election to heaven and so these people will most certainly end up in hell. He also does this type of election before creation.

As you can see, both of these really amounts to the same thing. If I don't pick you for the ball team it is the same is if I do pick you to not be on the ball team. Somehow Calvinists don't catch on to that fact.

It is kinda simple if you use your head. If God knew who he would save he also knew who he would condemn to hell and was effectively choosing them for hell whether or not "he picked them for hell" or "passed them by for heaven." Such things are simply Calvinist weasel words for those who do not wish to say God chose anyone to go to hell but no matter how you slice it and dice it he effectively did.

Calvinists tend to think they are pretty smart folks. But thinking folks can see the insanity of their beliefs quite clearly and quite BIBLICALLY as well. They get their jollies by affirming they are right by picking on the errant Arminian straw man. In other words, they conclude that if Arminians are wrong then the Calvinist must be right. This should tell you right here how limited their thinking is. It never seems to occur to their cultic mindset that both Calvinism and Arminians are wrong.

 

[Dean]

Adam, adam, adam...

CALVINISM per se is not the problem!
Certainly God's ultimate sovereignty should be affirmed always and everywhere.

Limited Atonement is the problem.

T, U, I and P are reasonably scriptural. As i like to say,

"Botanists agree, 80% of TULIP is scriptural!"

 

[Adams son]

Adam, adam, adam...

CALVINISM per se is not the problem!
Certainly God's ultimate sovereignty should be affirmed always and everywhere.

Limited Atonement is the problem.

T, U, I and P are reasonably scriptural. As i like to say,

"Botanists agree, 80% of TULIP is scriptural!"

No, all five points of Calvinism are completely wrong. I have studied it for years. Debate me on any point you like.

How about "T"?

 

[Dean]

Why would I do that? I don't think the rest of Calvinism poses a GREAT DANGER to evangelism, and righteous Christian living.

My narrow point is the other 4 tenets have at least solid primary Scriptural support. Every doctrinal thesis has "problem verses" - Limited Atonement has nothing but.

Total Depravity (at least as I narrowly interpret it) merely states that once we are a slave to sin, it is really only God working within us that produces good fruit.

As Jesus said - "Why do you call me good, there is NONE good but God".

You can get caught in a rhetorical Catch-22 about whether humans have good in them w/o God, but it's a relatively uninteresting argument, for the simple fact that GOD CREATED US. So whether the 'good' was
a) "baked in" via human creation and still lingers, or whether
b) it has to be actively nursed back to health by the dynamic initiative of God's Spirit (my personal view), or whether
c) it's injected like a turkey baster to our otherwise lifeless form,
it still has its ultimate and only source in God. I'm as esoteric as the next guy, but life is too short.

That said, I'm CONFIDENT you'll find an able and enthusiastic playmate for this particular sandbox on 123 CHRISTIAN FORUMS!!

 

[JM]

Are some predestined for Hell then?

No one is predestined to hell, they are going to hell for sin anyways. God in His mercy (as Scriptures tell us) has chosen some NOT to suffer in hell. If someone willing gets drunk and then drives, he breaks the law. Do we let him off because he was too drunk to know he was breaking the law? NO. The same with sin. A sinner willing sins and rejects God.

ALL Christians limit the atonement. I believe Christ died to save His people (as the Bible says, 'He shall save His people from their sin.') this limits who the atonement was for. Other Christians limit the power of Christ's atonement. They say, 'he died for everyone, BUT they still arn't saved UNTIL they believe.' I think the Bible is clear that faith is a gift of God, and the work of God is that 'you believe on Him (john 6).'

God bless,

jason

 

[Adams son]

Are some predestined for Hell then?

No one is predestined to hell, they are going to hell for sin anyways. God in His mercy (as Scriptures tell us) has chosen some NOT to suffer in hell. If someone willing gets drunk and then drives, he breaks the law. Do we let him off because he was too drunk to know he was breaking the law? NO. The same with sin. A sinner willing sins and rejects God.

And when God decided not to pick them (before creation) and would later knit them in their mother's womb, he also knew that he would be later sending them to hell fire torment right?

ALL Christians limit the atonement. I believe Christ died to save His people (as the Bible says, 'He shall save His people from their sin.') this limits who the atonement was for. Other Christians limit the power of Christ's atonement. They say, 'he died for everyone, BUT they still arn't saved UNTIL they believe.' I think the Bible is clear that faith is a gift of God, and the work of God is that 'you believe on Him (john 6).'

God bless,

jason

So when were you saved Jason?

 

[JM]

The saved are those who will continue in faith until the end, I'm not at the end...yet!

I find the word saved to be miss leading and have stopped using the term. I use people of God, faithful, Christian and saints.

 

[JM]

God created Adam and Eve knowing that they would fall into sin and die. What's your point Son? God knows everything, even 9/11 and it still happened. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Are all men created equal? No. Some are born in pagan family and never hear the Gospel, does God not have a say in who will hear the Gospel and who will not?

 

[Shana]

1/ Out of fallen humanity God chose certain persons unto salvation.


And he chooses others to burn in an never ending hell, and this before they had done any wrong?

What about this Jason?


"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.. (1 Timothy 4:10)

Jason?


God bless.

 

[Adams son]

God created Adam and Eve knowing that they would fall into sin and die. What's your point Son? God knows everything, even 9/11 and it still happened. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Are all men created equal? No. Some are born in pagan family and never hear the Gospel, does God not have a say in who will hear the Gospel and who will not?

According to Calvinism, God ORDAINED 911 to occur.

See Westminster Confession.

 

[Jcharlesscott]

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe the origin of this discussion was based on the question:

Does God create some to reject him?

I would most likely reference Proverbs 16:4 in this instance.

"The Lord works out everything for his own ends-
even the wicked for a day of disaster."

I realize this may be perhaps a bit too simplistic for you, but often eschatology is not as prolifically complex as some may let on.

I must also add at this point I am terribly offended by the accusations that have been thrown about by individuals on both sides of this debate. Particularly hurtful are the comments about the ignorance of one group of believers or another. I sincerely do not believe myself any more intelligent than any other individual with or without my own theological leanings. Neither of the doctrines being debated is an essential salvific doctrine. If at all possible please attempt the minimum in Christian love when responding to your brothers and sisters.

I am glad to be part of this forum, but I have been sorely effected by the attitude it has taken thus far.

I am willing to debate, but my mission is not to convert any to my system. I am vastly more concerned with those who claim to be of the Calvinist persuasion, but consistently misrepresent his teaching.

If through careful and deliberate study and prayer the Lord Almighty has convicted of something else, then peace be with you. If you claim to be a Calvinist and misrepresent Calvin, then I will most likely correct you and ask if you truly want to be a "Calvinist".

 

[Heidi]

I guess my question is; what difference does it make whether there is election or not? ALL who want heaven will listen to JESUS on how we can get there. Those who do not want it, don't have to seek Christ. Since none of us knows if we are called or not, then we are completely and totally accountable for our response to God.

 

[Shana]

Do you believe that those who want Jesus want to because God has predetermined to want Jesus? Do you believe that God has softened the hearts of certain individuals to receive and chosen to leave others in a state of sin? Do you believe that God sees beginning to end? What does Romans 9:11-21 mean to you? God bless you.

 

[JM]

Do you believe that those who want Jesus want to because God has predetermined to want Jesus? Do you believe that God has softened the hearts of certain individuals to receive and chosen to leave others in a state of sin? Do you believe that God sees beginning to end? What does Romans 9:11-21 mean to you? God bless you.

I believe in man's responsibility, but deny his ability to repent and believe the gospel until God 'open's' the heart. Acts 16

I believe that God has ordained the end and also the means to that end.

I do not believe that men are damned without any reference to their sin, but God knows who He will save and who He will not save.

 

[Shana]

Jason, so you believe that no one can repent and believe the gospel until God Himself opens the person's heart? How can one repent if God does not permit this? What if God created me knowing as He was creating me that He would never call me to repent of my sins. Then He sends me to eternal hell anyway because of my sins that I could not repent of?

You believe that God already knows who He will save and who He will not save from eternal hell? Do you believe that God has intentionally created the majority of individuals to burn in hell for all of eternity without any opportunity for salvation? How can God be described as the Savior of all men?

PS I was initially asking the questions in the above post to Heidi, but thanks for your feedback. God bless.

 

[Heidi]

Do you believe that those who want Jesus want to because God has predetermined to want Jesus? Do you believe that God has softened the hearts of certain individuals to receive and chosen to leave others in a state of sin? Do you believe that God sees beginning to end? What does Romans 9:11-21 mean to you? God bless you.

Again, Shana, what difference does it make? Since none of us knows whether or not we are called, we are again completely responsible for our acceptance or rejection of him. As jesus said; "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of their sins. Now however they are without excuse." When we go into a different state where we don't know the laws and then break them we will still have to pay the penalty, although it will be lighter because of our ignorance. But once we've heard the laws, then if we break them, it becomes willful and deliberate. The penalty will then be greater. God and satan are invisible to unbelevers. Therefore, they attribute their decisions to their human mind.s. They are thus accountable for them.

 

[JM]

What if God created me knowing as He was creating me that He would never call me to repent of my sins. Then He sends me to eternal hell anyway because of my sins that I could not repent of?

Don't you see, God DID create millions who will not repent. Sins are sins, people are sent to hell for the actual sin they do. All mankind is heading for hell until God calls some. The fact that not all men are saved proves that God does not call all men. Shana, read what you posted.

Again, it's like the person who gets drunk and drives. They could have been so drunk they didn't know what they were doing but they still broke the law and they are sent to jail for the law they broke. Man's heart is hard from sin, they will not repent, should God wink at sin and allow His Holiness to surfer? Never.

'This is a hard teaching....'

 

[Heidi]

What if God created me knowing as He was creating me that He would never call me to repent of my sins. Then He sends me to eternal hell anyway because of my sins that I could not repent of?

Don't you see, God DID create millions who will not repent. Sins are sins, people are sent to hell for the actual sin they do. All mankind is heading for hell until God calls some. The fact that not all men are saved proves that God does not call all men. Shana, read what you posted.

Again, it's like the person who gets drunk and drives. They could have been so drunk they didn't know what they were doing but they still broke the law and they are sent to jail for the law they broke. Man's heart is hard from sin, they will not repent, should God wink at sin and allow His Holiness to surfer? Never.

'This is a hard teaching....'

Good post, Jason!!!

It's as hard a teaching as teaching my teen-agers to accept the fact they can't go out every night simply because they want to. They of course, think that's not fair. What seems fair to them, of course, is getting everything they want.

 

[Shana]

Again, Jason, if God creates millions upon millions of people knowing again of time that they could not repent (because He will never soften their hearts to repent as they have not been called, are not elected) how is it that He would send them into an eternal hell? They have no ability to change the outcome of their fate. Yet He is said to be the Savior of all men. (1 Timothy 4:10) This is a contradiction.


If a child is crying and freezing out in the dead of winter and I am inside a nice warm house, with warm clothes laid out on the bed and a hot meal on the table. I say that I am this child's friend, that I am this child's Savior, but I never intend to call this child inside, how can I be their Savior? I never intended to call this child from the very beginning, yet I am still said to be his or her Savior? It is a contradiction. God bless. :D