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Did early Christians ever understand grace?

jonahmano said:
But according to you NOT continuing in sin is work because in the book of Ephesians Paul instructs us to do this and don't do that. And according to your concept all those are "WORKS"
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Your answer to your question is within the passages I gave you. You do not continue in sin, because you have been made dead to sin.
 
jonahmano said:
But according to you NOT continuing in sin is work because in the book of Ephesians Paul instructs us to do this and don't do that. And according to your concept all those are "WORKS"
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Reckoning yourself dead to sin, is a step in walking in newness of life. What did you do to make yourself dead sin?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Repenting of dead works may not make you righteous before God, but it will save you on the Day of Wrath and show you to have the righteousness that comes by faith apart from works.
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So…one is "saved on the Day of Wrath" which doesn't make you righteous by repenting of dead works, but such repentance shows that it comes by faith without having dead works. Really? Seems contradictory.

So not having "works" does not make one righteous, but having repentance from "works" makes one righteous???
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You've got a surprise waiting for you, then.

Christ will measure your justification apart from works by your works.
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More contradiction.

Not because those works make you righteous before God, but because those works are the expected and obligatory footprints of the faith that justifies apart from works.
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But no one is justified by works. While they are expected and commanded, it is not for salvation, but for reward. I think you've confused and conflated the 2 issues.
 
veryberry said:
As it is written, Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquites are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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Why do you want to hide behind the "Word". The scriptures are not here for to argue the way you want. If you want to reply then come with clean sentence and don't hide craftily behind the Word of God.
 
veryberry said:
Works of the flesh saves no one. If a person is relying on their ability to make themselves worthy(turning from sin), then that person is not saved. Hell will be full of self righteous people. It's really not complicated. Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. It is Christ who did the work.
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Hhha will give you an example. I don't understand in which generation you are living. It's your own decision whether you want to involve in doing evil and that's not called work. It's your choice whether you want to watch a dirty movie and this is done by your own will. Now tell me do you consider that also work. I believe in being led by the Holy Spirit but still we have choice to choose between "good" and "evil" and do you still call the choices to be works or the works of flesh.

I don't understand how a person's choice of watching a porn movie is in his own ability or not. Please if you can make me this understand. Few self righteous people might end up in hell but surely Hell is the place for disobedient and who nullify the cross of Christ. Christ did the work but the choice is ours whether to accept his work or not.
 
jonahmano said:
Why do you want to hide behind the "Word". The scriptures are not here for to argue the way you want. If you want to reply then come with clean sentence and don't hide craftily behind the Word of God.
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You have it wrong. The word of God is my weapon. Eph 6:11-20
 
jonahmano said:
Hhha will give you an example. I don't understand in which generation you are living. It's your own decision whether you want to involve in doing evil and that's not called work. It's your choice whether you want to watch a dirty movie and this is done by your own will. Now tell me do you consider that also work. I believe in being led by the Holy Spirit but still we have choice to choose between "good" and "evil" and do you still call the choices to be works or the works of flesh.

I don't understand how a person's choice of watching a porn movie is in his own ability or not. Please if you can make me this understand. Few self righteous people might end up in hell but surely Hell is the place for disobedient and who nullify the cross of Christ. Christ did the work but the choice is ours whether to accept his work or not.
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It depends on why your not watching porn. Are you not watching it because of a "Thou shalt not" i.e. the Law, or a law you place on youself, or what a church tells you.etc... Or are you not watching it because you are dead to sin. One is walking after the flesh, the other is after the spirit. Which way are you doing it?
 
veryberry said:
It depends on why your not watching porn. Are you not watching it because of a "Thou shalt not" i.e. the Law, or a law you place on youself, or what a church tells you.etc... Or are you not watching it because you are dead to sin. One is walking after the flesh, the other is after the spirit. Which way are you doing it?
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but that's still a decision and according to you it's work and that's what you guys are preaching here. You are speaking as if a saved person never backslid or watch porn in his life after accepting Jesus as his Lord and Saviour
 
jonahmano said:
but that's still a decision and according to you it's work and that's what you guys are preaching here. You are speaking as if a saved person never backslid or watch porn in his life after accepting Jesus as his Lord and Saviour
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It is about decisions, I've never dismissed that. You cannot watch porn because of a law or you cannot watch porn because you are dead to sin. Both seem good. but God see one as fruit unto death and the other has fruit unto holliness. The question for you is. How are you restraining sin? Are you restraining sin by the power of your flesh under some sort of law? or. Are you restraing sin by the provision of how God has made you dead to sin and alive unto God.

For example... When sin arises, you say no to sin because you are dead to sin, not because of a thou shalt not...The best way to restrain sin, is to stop trying to restrain sin, and just believe what God has said....You are dead to sin and alive unto God...Walk in newness of life.
 
veryberry said:
It is about decisions, I've never dismissed that. You cannot watch porn because of a law or you cannot watch porn because you are dead to sin. Both seem good. but God see one as fruit unto death and the other has fruit unto holliness. The question for you is. How are you restraining sin? Are you restraining sin by the power of your flesh under some sort of law? or. Are you restraing sin by the provision of how God has made you dead to sin and alive unto God.

For example... When sin arises, you say no to sin because you are dead to sin, not because of a thou shalt not...The best way to restrain sin, is to stop trying to restrain sin, and just believe what God has said....You are dead to sin and alive unto God...Walk in newness of life.
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Sin can be restrained by continual fellowship with God. And that's what you guys call it as work. Psalm 119 says "Thy WORD have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee. Just assuming that you are dead to sin won't work. You still didn't answer my question. There isn't one person who might have not sinned after receiving Jesus Christ. would you argee?
 
jonahmano said:
Sin can be restrained by continual fellowship with God. And that's what you guys call it as work. Psalm 119 says "Thy WORD have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee. Just assuming that you are dead to sin won't work. You still didn't answer my question. There isn't one person who might have not sinned after receiving Jesus Christ. would you argee?
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Of course, but you don't beat yourself up about it. You mind the things of the Spirit "you are dead to sin" "alive unto God" "justified" "sanctified" and then you move on. Its not assuming...for sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.
 
FreeGrace said:
So not having "works" does not make one righteous, but having repentance from "works" makes one righteous???
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As we all know faith in Christ's forgiveness is what justifies. Doing righteous things in the law hoping that God will declare you righteous for doing those righteous things can not justify you. That's why justification is by faith, apart from works of the law.

5 But to the one who does not work (to be justified--see context), but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works (of the law to be justified--see context)..." (Romans 4:5-6 NASB parenthesis mine)

This declaration of righteousness which is not achieved by doing works of the law, but apart from them, is then seen in righteous works of the law ('do not steal', etc.). If justification does not change a person into a new creation who then acts according to that new nature, they either did not receive the new nature he thinks he did, or is carelessly treating the free gift with contempt.

We were given the new nature through our faith in Christ's forgiveness, so we can then do righteous things--those righteous things confirming the faith that produced them in us. If you can't confirm that you have faith in Christ through what you do, it's time to examine your faith, and/or your attitude toward the grace of God.
 
veryberry said:
It depends on why your not watching porn. Are you not watching it because of a "Thou shalt not" i.e. the Law, or a law you place on youself, or what a church tells you.etc... Or are you not watching it because you are dead to sin. One is walking after the flesh, the other is after the spirit. Which way are you doing it?
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Since when did walking after the flesh mean not sinning? If you are walking after the flesh you are watching porn.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Since when did walking after the flesh mean not sinning? If you are walking after the flesh you are watching porn.
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If you are trying to restrain sin by the power of the flesh, you are in the flesh. If you are trying to live unto God by your own power, you are in the flesh. If you are under a law..ie. the law of Moses, you are in the flesh. To do such things are minding the things of the flesh and those that are in the flesh cannot please God producing nothing but fruit unto death. This is exactly what Romans 6:14 - 7:25 describes. Romans 6:1-13 describes walking after the Spirit. Romans 8:1- 14 is a conclusion of those 2 chapters(6&7).
 
veryberry said:
If you are under a law..ie. the law of Moses, you are in the flesh.
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Isn't it rather that if you are in the flesh you are under the law of Moses?

Our relationship with the sin nature is what gives the law the authority to bind us to the deeds of the flesh. But when the sin nature gets put to death in Christ the law loses it's authority to enforce an 'obedient' master/slave, husband/wife relationship between us and sinful flesh. When sinful flesh dies we no longer have to obey it's desires as lord and master over us. The law which enforced that relationship can not enforce it anymore.

veryberry said:
To do such things are minding the things of the flesh and those that are in the flesh cannot please God producing nothing but fruit unto death.
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Then you agree that walking according to the flesh means sinning?

There's no such thing as pleasing God in the flesh--that is, obeying him by the power of one's will alone, therefore, being in the flesh always means sinning. It does not, and can not mean being obedient by one's own power--that's an impossibility.
 
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