Did God Cause the Fall?

[follower of Christ]

again benoni...

..when a man rapes a baby/child, is GOD ordaining for him to do it ? YES...or...NO ???

 

[Bubba]

Drew wrote:
“I think you are making an individualistic reading here. That's ok as long as you are willing to have Paul saying that only Jews are vessels of destruction. I am entirely convinced that Paul here sees the vessels of destruction as Jews and Jews only. His whole argument becomes incoherent and senseless, otherwise.â€Â

Drew,
I believe God has set down a pattern in Scripture, that the true children of God are those “who were not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God†(John 1:13). In the Old Testament we have the same premise in different words in respect to ethnic Israel, “Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.24 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.†(Ezek. 36:22-27). Now couple these verses with Romans 3:10-11, “As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks Godâ€Â, and hopefully you see what Paul was talking about in Romans 9, it is truly God’s sovereign choice in this age we are in who are His and who are not.

Bubba wrote:
“I believe the context of the above verses is that those the Lord chooses as vessels of mercy are both Jews and Gentiles (vs. 24). If this is so, than the passage is not predominantly about the Nation of Israel, but whom God has compassion and mercy upon.â€Â

Drew wrote:
“I cannot agree with you here - the entire chapter (and on into chapters 10 and 11) is an argument about Israel, even if other related matters come in on the side. I am surprised that any would disagree with a strong Israel focus.â€Â

Drew, the 11th chapter of Romans is about both Jews and Gentiles; one group is given a “spirit of stupor†for they will not believe (Jews) and the other are grafted into the kingdom of God (Gentiles). Yet, until God reveals Himself in Jesus Christ we are all “bound in disobedience†(Romans 11:32). The good news is that the rest of the verse says all will be shown mercy.
Grace, Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Now show me where it SAYS that GOD CAUSED the fall...

Open your eyes....

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Sorry friend but you are purposefully distorting that passage

Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

90:1 says the Lord is our dwelling place in all generations
90:2 says that He is God before the world was formed.
90:3 says that He turns man to destruction.

It does NOT say that He turns man to destruction BEFORE the world was formed.
Verse three is not a continuation of the sentence in verse 2, Im afraid.


You can stop posting this perverse rendering here that DOESNT say what the TEXTS actually say...

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

READER SEE >>>> ROMANS 8:20

 

[follower of Christ]

Drew, the 11th chapter of Romans is about both Jews and Gentiles; one group is given a “spirit of stupor†for they will not believe (Jews) and the other are grafted into the kingdom of God (Gentiles). Yet, until God reveals Himself in Jesus Christ we are all “bound in disobedience†(Romans 11:32). The good news is that the rest of the verse says all will be shown mercy.
Grace, Bubba

The gentiles are mentioned because of the fact that when what happened to Israel happened the gentiles were then included.
Romans 9-11 ARE 'about' the nation of Israel, they ARENT 'about' individual predestination nor about God causing Adam to fall...

Bubba wrote:
“I believe the context of the above verses is that those the Lord chooses as vessels of mercy are both Jews and Gentiles (vs. 24). If this is so, than the passage is not predominantly about the Nation of Israel, but whom God has compassion and mercy upon.â€Â

I think you need to spend more time in Romans there, B...those three chapters are about Israel...so it aint so.
Youre running with PART of the data here and trying to create doctrine with it instead of keeping it in the context it is GIVEN in.

Many other false doctrines do the same thing.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
There is a “thin line†between God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility, both are true, where the problem exists is when one hangs their theology in one extreme or the other. They are both true and we should except the apparent paradox of Scripture and not fight against either truth with a barrage of verses. The original question is “Did God cause the “Fallâ€Â, hopefully the quotes added will help you see the possibility of the other position.
Bubba

Stephen Macasil writes:
“As an example let us look at the most heinous sin that has ever been committed in the history of the world, the execution and murder of the Son of God. I would first seek to define that the crucifixion of Christ was indeed a sin. Christ, as the Son of God, was sinless through His whole life. When Christ was condemned and put to death an innocent Man died. It is a sin to kill an innocent man so by definition the crucifixion of Christ was a sin. If indeed God does not control the actions of men but simply foreknows what we will do in our own free choices then every step of the way to the cross God had to depend on the free choices of men to accomplish His will. He had to depend on Pilate giving into the Jews demand for Christ’s crucifixion. He had to depend on the Pharisees plotting to kill Him. He had to depend on Judas to agree to betray Christ. He had to depend on Pilate to condemn an innocent man against all earthly counsel. He had to depend on the soldiers obeying the orders given to crucify Him.
On the other hand, if God is sovereign and does indeed ordain the actions of man then we have God ordaining and controlling the steps of everybody involved all the way to the cross. But does that leave those responsible for Christ’s crucifixion off the hook? Absolutely not! In the Gospel of Luke we read “For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!†(Luke 22:22). It had been determined from all eternity that Judas would betray Christ, yet he was held responsible for his actions. We could also examine Genesis 50 when Joseph told his brothers that what they had done they meant for evil, but God meant it for good (Gen 50:20) and there are many more examples in Scripture that we could examine.
How then do we rectify that God is sovereign and does indeed ordain our actions and yet we are held accountable and responsible for the actions which God ordains for us? We don’t. There is no need for us to rectify them. J.I. Packer quotes Spurgeon who was once asked if he could reconcile these two truths and Spurgeon replied “I wouldn’t try, I never reconcile friends.†Dr. Packer describes these seemingly opposite views as an antinomy. Dr. Packer defines an antinomy for theological purposes as “…an apparent incompatibility between two apparent truths. An antinomy exists when a pair of principles stand side by side, seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable.†Dr. Packer goes on to explain that the antinomy “…is not deliberately manufactured; it is forced upon us by the facts themselves…. What should one do, then, with an antinomy? Accept it for what it is, and learn to live with it.â€Â
Both God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility for our actions are clearly taught in the Scriptures. Clearly this is hard for us to understand and we cannot really comprehend it completely. Dr. Morey has said that if the Bible is truly the inspired Word of God we would expect that we cannot fully understand it. If we could fully understand everything taught in the Scriptures then we would have the same understanding as God and would be on equal intellectual footing. The truth of the matter is that we cannot fully understand God or His ways for His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts higher than our thoughts (Isa 55:9).â€Â
A.W. Pink also says:
“Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill His purpose.â€Â
God is not the author of sin in that He is held responsible for sin. He does ordain all our actions, even the sinful ones. If this were not true then we would be back to a God that is not sovereign over our actions and having to react and adjust His plan according to our decisions as he would have had to do with Joseph (Gen 50:20). If God does not control all actions in the world, even the evil and sinful ones, what hope do we have that He can prevent them from happening? Dr. Morey states “If God were not in control of everything including evil would there be any of hope that we would escape the wrath of the devil? Could we pray deliver us from the evil one?†Why would Jesus have taught His disciples to pray asking God to deliver them from the evil one (Matt 6:13) if God was not sovereign over evil? In closing I leave with a final quote from C.H. Spurgeon:
Opposition to divine sovereignty is essentially atheism. Men have no objection to a god who is really no God; I mean, by this, a god who shall be the subject of their caprice, who shall be a lackey to their will, who shall be under their control,-they have no objection to such a being as that; but a God who speaks, and it isdone, who commands, and it stands fast, a God who has no respect for their persons, but doeth as he wills among the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of this lower world, such a God as this they cannot endure.â€Â

 

[Sparkey]

Follower,
There is a “thin line†between God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility, both are true, where the problem exists is when one hangs their theology in one extreme or the other. They are both true and we should except the apparent paradox of Scripture and not fight against either truth with a barrage of verses. The original question is “Did God cause the “Fallâ€Â, hopefully the quotes added will help you see the possibility of the other position.
Bubba

Greetings, Bubba!

I don't think we've met? Friends call me Sparrow. Please feel free to do so?
I don't smell "'âdôm///Adam" [a man of reddish coloring] here only; maybe one is Susi*? If they want to eat lentils? Why not?
The smell here is rûach maybe? They are causing odor of delighting to the LORD??
Difficult for me to judge with only eye. ;) Am seeking the Lord to know but my "ear" smells Him in it.

~Sparrow

PS I will need to come back to "chew" on your post. It looks like it will taste delicious to my eye; maybe also taste good to my ear? Gonna go watch a movie with my sweetie right now though...
Sparrow! Methinks much learning hath made thee mad. <yeah, I know>

FOOTNOTES:
___________________________________________

*Susi: Susi = “my horseâ€Â
1) father of Gaddi, the spy for the tribe of Manasseh

rûach:
1) (Hiphil) to smell, scent, perceive odour, accept
1a) of horse
1b) of delight (metaphorically)

 

[Benoni]

Follerer,

You can stop posting this perverse rendering here that DOESNT say what the TEXTS actually say...

Bubba is right, and I totally agree with his statement’ There is a “thin line†between God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility, both are true, where the problem exists is when one hangs their theology in one extreme or the other.

God is sovereign over all things, and yes you did make me cross the thin line in answering your questions "did cause a child being raped". In our natural mind this seems so out of the question; but evil of a child being raped does not even come closed to your perverse claim God is going to torture billions upon billions of God’s creation because God is not willing to save them; now that is a perverse rendering which we have already discussed.

Satan is the NEGATIVE tool in an almighty God’s hand that was created for the purpose as a waster, destroyer, and murderer; BUT with this said Satan does nothing until God ordains it. God is the creator, Satan is the created. God is soverign over all things especially the negative realms.

Let us start with what you call a perverse rendering in other words a lie in Roman’s 8:20 which you refuse to acknowledge as God’s Word; so it is a lie in your eyes. The word here in the (NIRV) is choice which I see hits the hammer on the head, lets look at the Greek here.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have[/quote]

NT:3153 Vanity: mataiotes (mat-ah-yot'-ace); from NT:3152; inutility; figuratively, transientness; morally, depravity:

Not/absolutely negative The preceeding word is NT:3756 ou (oo); also (before a vowel) ouk (ook); and (before an aspirate) ouch (ookh); a primary word; the absolute negative [compare NT:3361] adverb; no or not:

Voluntary/no choice uncertain affinity; voluntary: The Greek uses the word NT:1635 hekon (hek-own'); of uncertain affinity; voluntary:

NT:5293 hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so); from NT:5259 and NT:5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:


So the created world God’s was subordinate absolutely not VOLUNTARY; in other words; had no say in the matter, had no choice. All you have given me so far is either you do not believe God’s Word or you assume assume assume with no reason for your assumption . Call these verses perverse rendering, call it a lie but do not dismiss God’s Word like you are the final authority; which your not.

 

[Benoni]

Follower,

Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. [/color]
90:1 says the Lord is our dwelling place in all generations
90:2 says that He is God before the world was formed.
90:3 says that He turns man to destruction.

It does NOT say that He turns man to destruction BEFORE the world was formed.
Verse three is not a continuation of the sentence in verse 2, Im afraid.

There is a mention of time element here; it just says; “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art Godâ€Â. then immediately is says “Thou turnest man to destructionâ€Â
Your quote declares “that He is God before the world was formed†is only a part of the verse and you ignore half the verse and give no reason why , you dismiss half the verse or call it a lie. Here is what you did not quote:[/quote]Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world
Thou turnest man to destruction

There is no verse three in this text or verse two when it comes to the Hebrew; all there is context of content; there is no separation at all here for it is a continuing statement. You are not being honest with this verse; you are spinning it to mean what you want it to say.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
There is a “thin line†between God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility, both are true, where the problem exists is when one hangs their theology in one extreme or the other. They are both true and we should except the apparent paradox of Scripture and not fight against either truth with a barrage of verses. The original question is “Did God cause the “Fallâ€Â, hopefully the quotes added will help you see the possibility of the other position.
Bubba

Thats a nice speech.
James explains the issue VERY clearly.
I know some here like to twist whatever they can to make this false doctrine SEEM to work but WE can read for OURSELVES that GOD is not responsible for OUR choice to sin...WE are. WE make the choice...WE commit the sin of OUR own freewill to do so.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

You are right.
You and benoni should CEASE pitting your out of context scripture with those which are CLEAR in the matter.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Drew, the 11th chapter of Romans is about both Jews and Gentiles; one group is given a “spirit of stupor†for they will not believe (Jews) and the other are grafted into the kingdom of God (Gentiles). Yet, until God reveals Himself in Jesus Christ we are all “bound in disobedience†(Romans 11:32). The good news is that the rest of the verse says all will be shown mercy.
Grace, Bubba

Come on guy...the chapter mentions the gentiles as they are players now...but the TOPIC in those chapters is Israel. Read them again.

Romans 9
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises...

...But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved...

...But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Romans 11
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying...

...For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The chapters overall are ABOUT Israel and her condition, how she got there and what has transpired to bring in the gentile nations.
The topic there ISNT 'Did God cause the fall', nor is it about individual predestination.

My theory is that you arent reading it ALL together as a cohesive whole and that is why you are having so much trouble with Romans 9 and thinking it means something it doesnt.

 

[follower of Christ]

Bubba is right, and I totally agree with his statement’ There is a “thin line†between God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility, both are true, where the problem exists is when one hangs their theology in one extreme or the other.

Do you mean like the EXTREME of saying that a GOD who HATES sin is CAUSING man to FALL INTO sin ???

OUR doctrine is balanced.
We believe that God IS sovereign can His determined will WILL be accomplished.
And we believe that MAN has been given FREEDOM to CHOOSE to sin, and that that fact still does not infringe on Gods determined will or His sovereignty.
WHEN God needs to take the wheel for His will to be done, THEN He can and will take control of men like Pharoah and harden their hearts.

That does NOT mean that God WANTED man to sin.
That does not mean that God CAUSED man to fall.

God is sovereign over all things, and yes you did make me cross the thin line in answering your questions "did cause a child being raped".

So youre going to finally answer the question so I dont have to ask it again ?

In our natural mind this seems so out of the question;

Setting up a defense early huh ?
Took a while since I KNOW you saw my question the first couple times. Took a little bit to come up with a response, didnt it? ;)

*IF* your error were true and YOU actually BELIEVED it, then your response should have come immediately and without hesitation
Your hesitation, what I was actually looking for more than an answer (which I already knew based on your views), shows me there is doubt in your conviction and your belief in this error.

but evil of a child being raped does not even come closed to your perverse claim God is going to torture billions upon billions of God’s creation because God is not willing to save them; now that is a perverse rendering which we have already discussed.

Still didnt answer my question, did you?

DOES God 'ordain' a man raping a child ?
"Yes" or "no" will suffice... ;)

And sorry, but an INNOCENT child being raped by a madman is not comparable to punishment imposed by a JUST, SOVEREIGN God for disobedience.
You seem to think they are the same thing. They arent.
A man raping a child is an act of savage, godless brutality and corruption.
Gods SOVEREIGN JUDGMENT on an unrepentant mankind is an entirely different thing.
Are you claiming that they are the same ?
Please say yes and bury this false doctrine of yours even further in the readers mind here.

Satan is the NEGATIVE tool in an almighty God’s hand that was created for the purpose as a waster, destroyer, and murderer; BUT with this said Satan does nothing until God ordains it.

Fallacious.
Satan does what God 'permits'. Just as He 'permitted' satan to do what he did with Job.

God is the creator, Satan is the created.

God is creator, LUCIFER was the created.
Then that angel rebelled and fell because of iniquity and was then called 'accuser' ('satan').

God is soverign over all things especially the negative realms.

Being sovereign over them does not indicate that He 'caused' them.

Let us start with what you call a perverse rendering in other words a lie in Roman’s 8:20 which you refuse to acknowledge as God’s Word; so it is a lie in your eyes. The word here in the (NIRV) is choice which I see hits the hammer on the head, lets look at the Greek here.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

You can bring that godless rendering up 100 more times and all it proves to us is that you WANT to use it because its probably the only bible version you could find that is worded in such a way as to make it SEEM like your error works.
the ACTUAL texts do NOT say what this perversion does, nor have I seen any other translations take such abominable freedoms with the text...
READERS SEE the ACTUAL text >>> HERE <<<

NT:3153 Vanity: mataiotes (mat-ah-yot'-ace); from NT:3152; inutility; figuratively, transientness; morally, depravity:

Not/absolutely negative The preceeding word is NT:3756 ou (oo); also (before a vowel) ouk (ook); and (before an aspirate) ouch (ookh); a primary word; the absolute negative [compare NT:3361] adverb; no or not:

Voluntary/no choice uncertain affinity; voluntary: The Greek uses the word NT:1635 hekon (hek-own'); of uncertain affinity; voluntary:

NT:5293 hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so); from NT:5259 and NT:5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:


So the created world God’s was subordinate absolutely not VOLUNTARY; in other words; had no say in the matter, had no choice.

Uh..yeah...gee....I think we COVERED this already.
ADAM certainly did not make the CHOICE to be CAST out of the garden....but he was.
Satan certainly did not make the CHOICE to be cast down from heaven....but he was.

Man CHOSE to sin and as a RESULT the creation was subjected to vanity....it had NO CHOICE in the matter...we've already AGREED to this fact ! Do you READ our posts at all ?
This does NOT SAY that this subjection existed PRIOR to the fall while man was STILL in DIRECT fellowship with God !

All you have given me so far is either you do not believe God’s Word or you assume assume assume with no reason for your assumption .

You have to be thinking of someone else. Keep better track of the 4 debates you are in currently please.
Ive given scripture and Ive explained my reasoning VERY clearly in this thread.
If you missed it somehow then read it all again.

Call these verses perverse rendering, call it a lie but do not dismiss God’s Word like you are the final authority; which your not.

Sorry friend but just because some guys got together and wrote one more bible in english DOESNT make it Gods word.
I dont use the Living Bible because it is a joke.
I dont use a couple other well known versions for the same reason. They take WAY too many liberties with the texts...just as your version above does.

We can SEE the greek and what it means and SEE that this version you are using abuses the intent of the texts...
READERS SEE the ACTUAL text >>> HERE <<<

 

[follower of Christ]

There is a mention of time element here; it just says; “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art Godâ€Â. then immediately is says “Thou turnest man to destructionâ€Â
Your quote declares “that He is God before the world was formed†is only a part of the verse and you ignore half the verse and give no reason why , you dismiss half the verse or call it a lie. Here is what you did not quote:

There is no verse three in this text or verse two when it comes to the Hebrew; all there is context of content; there is no separation at all here for it is a continuing statement.

So you think that the Hebrews just used run on sentences because they use no punctuation then ? riiiight ;)
Part of the job of translators is trying to understand where sentence breaks should be when they translate and what punctuation should be used in english.
Unless YOU are a scholar of ancient Hebrew I think WE will accept the work of our translators in the matter and leave the periods where they are

The chapter breaks are annoying. I use the MKJV version I have because its set up in paragraph form and thus easier to read. Chapter and verse breaks have NOTHING to do with punctuation, however.

You are not being honest with this verse; you are spinning it to mean what you want it to say
.

Please.
Any of us can READ the text and see that there is more than a single statement there.

Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

90:1 says the Lord is our dwelling place in all generations
90:2 says that He is God before the world was formed.
90:3 says that He turns man to destruction.

Seems to me that this is just one more twist youve come up with to push your fallacy.

And AGAIN this says NOTHING about God causing the fall
Man sinned and creation has been subjected because of mans choice to sin.

.

 

[Benoni]

There is no sentence break in this statement; you are the one that cannot put all of the words down in this passage that were there, because it does not conform the way you see it.

I do not need to be a scholar of Greek or Hebrew to look at the context and content of the verse; all I need is eyes to see; eyes that do have a preconceived agenda.

This verse declares "Thou turnest man to destruction" if that is not the fall then there is no fall.

Before the mountains were brought forth; it does not say “not after the earth was formed†before Adam's fall.

Then it takes the content and context even more back in time before the fall " or ever thou hadst formed the earth" after all this thencomes to the fall" Thou turnest man to destruction" how deliberately blind can you get?


You take all of this then you add to the fact you have never presented one verse is scripture that declares man cause the fall or man has a freewill to save himself.

There is a mention of time element here; it just says; “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art Godâ€Â. then immediately is says “Thou turnest man to destructionâ€Â
Your quote declares “that He is God before the world was formed†is only a part of the verse and you ignore half the verse and give no reason why , you dismiss half the verse or call it a lie. Here is what you did not quote:

There is no verse three in this text or verse two when it comes to the Hebrew; all there is context of content; there is no separation at all here for it is a continuing statement.

So you think that the Hebrews just used run on sentences because they use no punctuation then ? riiiight ;)
Part of the job of translators is trying to understand where sentence breaks should be when they translate and what punctuation should be used in english.
Unless YOU are a scholar of ancient Hebrew I think WE will accept the work of our translators in the matter and leave the periods where they are

The chapter breaks are annoying. I use the MKJV version I have because its set up in paragraph form and thus easier to read. Chapter and verse breaks have NOTHING to do with punctuation, however.

[quote:26p6tixn] You are not being honest with this verse; you are spinning it to mean what you want it to say
.

Please.
Any of us can READ the text and see that there is more than a single statement there.

Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

90:1 says the Lord is our dwelling place in all generations
90:2 says that He is God before the world was formed.
90:3 says that He turns man to destruction.

Seems to me that this is just one more twist youve come up with to push your fallacy.

And AGAIN this says NOTHING about God causing the fall
Man sinned and creation has been subjected because of mans choice to sin.

.[/quote:26p6tixn]

 

[Benoni]

God hates a lot of things but God is still God and creator of all things. Sin is a tool in God's hands; the world and sin are not out of control God is soverign over all things. Show me where man has given freedom of Choice in God's Word when it come to His own salvation?

If the child is raped it is God soverign hand over the evil; God created Satan; God created evil, Satan is not the God of the earth; he is the god of this earth.

That very child who you feel so sorry for will burn for ever and ever in your man made hell if she has never known God. How many children in Iran, North Korea are raped every day; then you claim God will torture that child because she never had even a chance to know Jesus. Never heard His precious name; she is a slave to sin, a slave to the mind set of N Korea, a slave to a Godless nation and you try to tell me God is not soverign over all things. You god is far too small.

Bubba is right, and I totally agree with his statement’ There is a “thin line†between God’s Sovereignty and man’s responsibility, both are true, where the problem exists is when one hangs their theology in one extreme or the other.

Do you mean like the EXTREME of saying that a GOD who HATES sin is CAUSING man to FALL INTO sin ???

OUR doctrine is balanced.
We believe that God IS sovereign can His determined will WILL be accomplished.
And we believe that MAN has been given FREEDOM to CHOOSE to sin, and that that fact still does not infringe on Gods determined will or His sovereignty.
WHEN God needs to take the wheel for His will to be done, THEN He can and will take control of men like Pharoah and harden their hearts.

That does NOT mean that God WANTED man to sin.
That does not mean that God CAUSED man to fall.

God is sovereign over all things, and yes you did make me cross the thin line in answering your questions "did cause a child being raped".

So youre going to finally answer the question so I dont have to ask it again ?
[quote:i5v0kq1i] In our natural mind this seems so out of the question;

Setting up a defense early huh ?
Took a while since I KNOW you saw my question the first couple times. Took a little bit to come up with a response, didnt it? ;)

*IF* your error were true and YOU actually BELIEVED it, then your response should have come immediately and without hesitation
Your hesitation, what I was actually looking for more than an answer (which I already knew based on your views), shows me there is doubt in your conviction and your belief in this error.

but evil of a child being raped does not even come closed to your perverse claim God is going to torture billions upon billions of God’s creation because God is not willing to save them; now that is a perverse rendering which we have already discussed.

Still didnt answer my question, did you?

DOES God 'ordain' a man raping a child ?
"Yes" or "no" will suffice... ;)

And sorry, but an INNOCENT child being raped by a madman is not comparable to punishment imposed by a JUST, SOVEREIGN God for disobedience.
You seem to think they are the same thing. They arent.
A man raping a child is an act of savage, godless brutality and corruption.
Gods SOVEREIGN JUDGMENT on an unrepentant mankind is an entirely different thing.
Are you claiming that they are the same ?
Please say yes and bury this false doctrine of yours even further in the readers mind here.

Satan is the NEGATIVE tool in an almighty God’s hand that was created for the purpose as a waster, destroyer, and murderer; BUT with this said Satan does nothing until God ordains it.

Fallacious.
Satan does what God 'permits'. Just as He 'permitted' satan to do what he did with Job.

God is the creator, Satan is the created.

God is creator, LUCIFER was the created.
Then that angel rebelled and fell because of iniquity and was then called 'accuser' ('satan').

God is soverign over all things especially the negative realms.

Being sovereign over them does not indicate that He 'caused' them.

Let us start with what you call a perverse rendering in other words a lie in Roman’s 8:20 which you refuse to acknowledge as God’s Word; so it is a lie in your eyes. The word here in the (NIRV) is choice which I see hits the hammer on the head, lets look at the Greek here.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

You can bring that godless rendering up 100 more times and all it proves to us is that you WANT to use it because its probably the only bible version you could find that is worded in such a way as to make it SEEM like your error works.
the ACTUAL texts do NOT say what this perversion does, nor have I seen any other translations take such abominable freedoms with the text...
READERS SEE the ACTUAL text >>> HERE <<<

NT:3153 Vanity: mataiotes (mat-ah-yot'-ace); from NT:3152; inutility; figuratively, transientness; morally, depravity:

Not/absolutely negative The preceeding word is NT:3756 ou (oo); also (before a vowel) ouk (ook); and (before an aspirate) ouch (ookh); a primary word; the absolute negative [compare NT:3361] adverb; no or not:

Voluntary/no choice uncertain affinity; voluntary: The Greek uses the word NT:1635 hekon (hek-own'); of uncertain affinity; voluntary:

NT:5293 hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so); from NT:5259 and NT:5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:


So the created world God’s was subordinate absolutely not VOLUNTARY; in other words; had no say in the matter, had no choice.

Uh..yeah...gee....I think we COVERED this already.
ADAM certainly did not make the CHOICE to be CAST out of the garden....but he was.
Satan certainly did not make the CHOICE to be cast down from heaven....but he was.

Man CHOSE to sin and as a RESULT the creation was subjected to vanity....it had NO CHOICE in the matter...we've already AGREED to this fact ! Do you READ our posts at all ?
This does NOT SAY that this subjection existed PRIOR to the fall while man was STILL in DIRECT fellowship with God !

All you have given me so far is either you do not believe God’s Word or you assume assume assume with no reason for your assumption .

You have to be thinking of someone else. Keep better track of the 4 debates you are in currently please.
Ive given scripture and Ive explained my reasoning VERY clearly in this thread.
If you missed it somehow then read it all again.

Call these verses perverse rendering, call it a lie but do not dismiss God’s Word like you are the final authority; which your not.

Sorry friend but just because some guys got together and wrote one more bible in english DOESNT make it Gods word.
I dont use the Living Bible because it is a joke.
I dont use a couple other well known versions for the same reason. They take WAY too many liberties with the texts...just as your version above does.

We can SEE the greek and what it means and SEE that this version you are using abuses the intent of the texts...
READERS SEE the ACTUAL text >>> HERE <<<[/quote:i5v0kq1i]

 

[follower of Christ]

There is no sentence break in this statement;

Im sorry but the TRANSLATORS...you know..the guys who actually KNOW Hebrew, says one belongs there.
You certainly DONT expect us to believe YOU over the men who are better qualified in the matter, do you ?
THESE ALL use the SAME puncuation indicating a sentence break at the END of verse 2

Psa 90:2

(ASV) Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(LITV) Before the mountains were born, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(MKJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(YLT) Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.

They are all wrong, arent they ? ;)
Everyones wrong but benoni...all those translators who AGREE where the break belongs...right ? ;)

you are the one that cannot put all of the words down in this passage that were there, because it does not conform the way you see it.

PUHlease...
NOTHING in that passage says a thing about God causing mans fall....which AGAIN is the actual topic here.

I do not need to be a scholar of Greek or Hebrew to look at the context and content of the verse; all I need is eyes to see; eyes that do have a preconceived agenda.

Right.
Everyones got it wrong but benoni...isnt that right
Again, the REAL scholars of Hebrew seem to agree where the second sentence ENDS and the third BEGINS;

Psa 90:2

(ASV) Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(LITV) Before the mountains were born, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(MKJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(YLT) Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.

This verse declares "Thou turnest man to destruction" if that is not the fall then there is no fall.

Non-sequitur nonsense.
Whatever the intent of that SENTENCE that starts in verse 3 it does NOT indicate any state PRIOR to the fall. YOU add that thought INTO the verse, as you do with EVERY verse you present.

Before the mountains were brought forth; it does not say “not after the earth was formed†before Adam's fall.

Again...thats a different sentence.
Stop pretending as tho YOU are qualified to tell us where the sentence breaks occur. You arent.

Then it takes the content and context even more back in time before the fall " or ever thou hadst formed the earth" after all this thencomes to the fall" Thou turnest man to destruction" how deliberately blind can you get?

Apparently not as blind as you wish to make yourself seeing that *I* accept the ACTUAL scholars of Hebrews understanding of where the sentence breaks occur.

You take all of this then you add to the fact you have never presented one verse is scripture that declares man cause the fall or man has a freewill to save himself.

Please...stop with the Red Herrings and straw men here.
NO ONE HAS SAID that man has the ABILITY to save himself. But your continually misrepresenting us makes it clear that you are getting desperate.
Man CANNOT save himself from the separation from God that now exists BECAUSE Adam chose to rebel...man can ONLY RESPOND to the Fathers drawing him either positively or negatively using the FREE WILL give to man by our Sovereign God.

 

[Drew]

Yes, I see that you are not following the thread and what I am saying. If you go back and reread what I said when I accused you of making a straw man maybe it will be clear.

You said....

When we read this as 21st century westerners, we think that when the phrase “by nature†is used, a statement is being made about our fundamental constitution.

That is what I was talking about "a straw man." Again, there is no such definition anywhere that you quote from your imaginary 21st century westerner. That is something you made up, its a myth, a figment of your mind. No one defines nature in the way you suggest this imaginary 21st century westerner does. Please show me one source that says "when the phrase “by nature†is used, a statement is being made about "our fundamental constitution." No one ever said that.

When I challenge you to provide sources where you got that statement from, I get silence from you, if the source existed, you would have quoted it. Then when you cannot provide a source you make accusations that that my behavior is without merit, shameless, and all that rubbish. Sometimes I think you believe your own obtusification and fog making.

I will let you have the last "shot" on the blame game in relation to this particular issue. There is perhaps some confusion about what we are taking about and I may well bear some responsibility for this.

Now to try and resolve the confusion. My initial point was that, at least as a start, we can read “by nature†as denoting “by birthâ€Â. That is really all – “by birth†is a legitimate reading of “phusis†in some contexts. I may have gone too far in presuming what you meant by the term “by nature†in respect to Ephesians 2:3. Fine. Forget I ever said anything about inner constitutions – I gladly retract that statement. I will let you elaborate on what you think “by nature†means in that passage.
In proposing that a possible reading of Ephesians 2:3 is this…

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by birth children of wrath, even as the rest.

….I further suggest that while such a reading clearly implies that we are born in a state where we, in some some sense “under wrathâ€Â, there is no necessity to conclude that we cannot freely respond to grace.

Now if you think otherwise, please make your case. Now let me re-iterate, lest there is any misunderstanding. In saying that we might read “phusis†as “by birth†in Ephesians 2:3, I am not claiming that such is indeed the correct reading. I will need to make further arguments to that effect. But, I see nothing in this thread that constitutes what I think is a valid argument that Ephesians 2:3 endorses the notion that we cannot freely respond to grace.

 

[follower of Christ]

Very interesting theory Drew. Seems to fit the context overall since we know that sin and its punishment was passed down onto all because of one mans sin. We are born into this state, unable to save ourselves, and deserving of Gods wrath from birth because man has chosen to rebel against God.

 

[Drew]

This is not an admission that the exegesis changes how we should read Ephesians 2. Somewhere in your writings you deny that you are trying to read Galatians back into Ephesians 2. However, in your post on "Drew on Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:50 pm" you said...
"But there is precedent for Paul using the term "by nature" to really say "by birth".

Here is an example, Galations 2:15:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles."

If you look at your first sentence in the quote, does that not sound to you like you were denying that the word phusis in Ephesians 2 refers to the nature of man as an angry rebel who is dead in his sins and trespasses. You seemed to be suggesting it refers to our birth, and this somehow denies that we are angry rebels by nature.

No, it does not sound like that to me at all. I try to choose my words very carefully and believe that I have bent over backwards to make it clear that reading "phusis" as "by birth" is a legitimate possibility to consider. I never said that I have shown that "by birth" is the correct reading. But I do grant that, based on other beliefs I have about the scriptures, I would not expect the text to force us into a reading that has man in a state where he cannot "freely" act to find his way out of his slavery to sin. But we will see - the text is what it is and has to be engaged.

Whatever you were trying to say in the past is not the point. What do you say now? Is man a rebel from God by nature due to Adams fall and the fact that we are all in Adam?

The question would need to be more nuanced in order to me to answer it as posed. I believe that, because of Adam's fall, we are both with a nature that drives us inexorably to sin. Here, I think we agree - it is impossible for us to not sin. However, I believe that we can recognize this condition and "freely" accept a remedy offered us by God. I am pretty sure we part company on this one.

Is the word phusis (nature) in Ephesians 2:3 talking about that nature of man? If you deny this, please also make a positive statement on Ephesians 2:3 and articulate what you think it is talking about.

I am not sure what it means in Ephesians 2:3. I am thinking about it ands will get back to you (and others).

 

[Drew]

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

Matthew 7:16-18

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. KJV

I agree with the caveman (Benoni) - the scriptures support the notion that we are born enslaved to sin. Are you (Ret) implying that the Matthew text suggests otherwise. I would offer that Jesus is here presuming that the "good tree" is good only in virtue of becoming a new creation. But none of us are born good - we are all born enslaved to sin.

 

[Benoni]

All men are born in sin; all men are born of Adam and are born with a carnal human nature. It takes God's spirit to quicken us out of that death state; before we can hear or see anything spirtual.

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:

Rom 11:32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

NO ONE, NO man, women child CAN COME TO ME, except the Father DRAW/DRAG/FORCES him.

The first step is right here; without the first step you cannot believe. Here it is again in a bit more in depth explanation. Notice the context of the verse.. (1) He must quicken you; why (2) because you are dead in trespasses and sins. (3) By grace we are saved, (4) then and then only then can you have faith (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


.Eph. 2: 1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active  LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power  making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

Matthew 7:16-18

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. KJV

I agree with the caveman (Benoni) - the scriptures support the notion that we are born enslaved to sin. Are you (Ret) implying that the Matthew text suggests otherwise. I would offer that Jesus is here presuming that the "good tree" is good only in virtue of becoming a new creation. But none of us are born good - we are all born enslaved to sin.