Did God Cause the Fall?

[Benoni]

The joke is on you; you are the one who does not realize God is God. There is nothing in man sinful nature that can choose God; just like there was nothing in Adam that could of done what God did to all of His creation without God's total devine will. Adam could not choose sin, no where does it say Adam choose to sin; you only assume Adam choose to sin.

But God's Word declares But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men. "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16), Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified, So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens--makes stubborn and unyielding of heart--whomever He wills,The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

It is a strange theory that obsesses men that the human will is greater in power than God, and that, no matter what the will of God is for His creatures, man is able finally to wreck it. The omniscient God has boxed Himself into a corner, since the will of God is bound by the will of man, and the Omnipotent Spirit can be resisted by finite man if man so chooses.

Such faulty reasoning actually brings into prominence ANOTHER OMNIPOTENCE which, because it baffles the omnipotence and love of God, is by far the greater. Man will not so God cannot! What makes this notion so tragic is that it DEIFIES MAN, elevating him to god-hood, and aligns all who embrace it with the very sin that caused the fall in the beginning! The first sin committed by man had its roots in the desire to be a FREE MORAL AGENT! Free moral agency is not the doctrine of the Bible. It is the doctrine of Romanism; and it is the doctrine of humanism. It was Erasmus, the humanist, who wrote on the freedom of man's will. It has always been the humanists that have sought to deify man and have boasted of the freedom of their sovereign will.

This thread is really turning into somewhat of a joke...
'no, Im right...no, Im right....No..I'm right"

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice.

We certainly are sinners BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to disobey...ie SIN...

We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

And PAUL SAYS this ALL BEGAN WITH ONE MAN !
[quote:20bx3urm]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

[/quote:20bx3urm]

 

[Benoni]

it was the result OF Adams CHOICE to sin

This is nothing but your assumption. Not one place in God's Word do these words or thought exist except for your imagination and assumption. You have never showed one verse in scripture to back this false assumption.

Here are two verses that declares your assmption an out right lie; BUT NO you claim God's Word is an out right lie because your assumption is more important then the truth of God's Word. If this assumption is SO true then clearly prove it by the very Word you claim is lying to you.

Prove it, stop assuming and spinning......


Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[follower of Christ]

The joke is on you; you are the one who does not realize God is God. There is nothing in man sinful nature that can choose God; just like there was nothing in Adam that could of done what God did to all of His creation without God's total devine will. Adam could not choose sin, no where does it say Adam choose to sin; you only assume Adam choose to sin.

YOU twist scripture to claim that he didnt choose.

It must be comforting to believe that you are responsible for your CHOICE to sin. ;)

But God's Word declares But that was not the result of its own choice.

NO...Gods word declares that the SUBJECTION was not of its own choice....just as it was not ADAMS CHOICE to be cast out of the garden or forced to work for a living AFTER he sinned.
It does NOT say that this subjection existed PRIOR to Adams sin.

We've been thru this 20 times at this point...the horse is dead.

 

[follower of Christ]

This is nothing but your assumption.

Please...get real.
James says VERY plainly that MAN sins because he LUSTS...he wants something he doesnt have and commits WRONG in order to get it.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

Not one place in God's Word do these words or thought exist except for your imagination and assumption. You have never showed one verse in scripture to back this false assumption.

READERS....go back thru this thread and see how many times Ive posted this and other passages.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

MAN, not God, is tempted by HIS OWN Lusts and CHOOSES to sin.

Here are two verses that declares your assmption an out right lie; BUT NO you claim God's Word is an out right lie because your assumption is more important then the truth of God's Word. If this assumption is SO true then clearly prove it by the very Word you claim is lying to you.

Prove it, stop assuming and spinning......


Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Sorry, where again does that say 'GOD causes man to fall" ????

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Sorry but we covered this ad nauseum.
Romans does NOT SAY the world was ''bound to fail', first of all
Secondly this verse does NOT SAY that this state existed PRIOR to the fall of man.
READERS SEE the actual text >>> HERE<<<

Got anything NEW ????

 

[follower of Christ]

and again....since we're going to repeat ourselves 100 more times here.

Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

 

[Benoni]

and again....since we're going to repeat ourselves 100 more times here.

Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:3eycd2rb]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..[/quote:3eycd2rb]


God is God and controls all good and evil; God created the tree of good and evil; it was not called the tree of good.



Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)

Calamity, evil all the same thing in the sovereign hand of an almighty powerful god who controls all things including evil.



Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the
LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?
shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
(KJV)

Back to little Adam who had no choice.


No one never said it was not good; but that does not mean God cannot make it better, you already admitted God foreknew the fall; but you still blame it on little Adam. If God foreknew Adam would sin; then God had total sovereignty over that fall and it was God’s plan all the time not little Adam. Where does it say Adam had a choice; or are you still going to claim God's Word is lying to you but you cannot product your counter argument in God's Word that Adam chooses sin? Is God's Word lying or are you going to show scriptural truth that Adam choose sin and God had nothing to do with that choice?

 

[Benoni]

Where is your scripural proof Adam cause the fall? You claim God's Word is lying to you' so prove your truth you claim with God's Word not spin... bias opinion... assuptions.... BUT WITH GOD's Bible. Who is the liar here God's Word or your assuption. PROVE it...

and again....since we're going to repeat ourselves 100 more times here.

Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:qgfofc0w]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..[/quote:qgfofc0w]

 

[follower of Christ]

God is God and controls all good and evil; God created the tree of good and evil; it was not called the tree of good.

Who even knows what your point is.

I'll ask again...
When a man rapes a child is it 'ordained' by GOD ???

Answer the question, please.

Back to little Adam who had no choice.

Sure he did.
Nothing youve shown proves otherwise.

No one never said it was not good; but that does not mean God cannot make it better, you already admitted God foreknew the fall; but you still blame it on little Adam.

:D
So your absurd conclusion is that foreKNOWING = CONTROLLING....what a hoot.
God can FOREKNOW without CONTROLLING
He can KNOW Adam is going to CHOOSE to sin and ALLOW Adam the free will to do so.

If God foreknew Adam would sin; then God had total sovereignty over that fall and it was God’s plan all the time not little Adam.

Sovereignty does not equal micromanaging. Learn the difference.
Gods sovereignty is proven when He DOESNT have to micromanage or CAUSE man to sin but yet remains the final authority.

Where does it say Adam had a choice;

Pathetic.
WHERE does it say Adam DIDNT ?
Youve shown us NOTHING that says as much so far. EVERY passage youve presented has to have it read INTO it to conclude what you do.

or are you still going to claim God's Word is lying to you but you cannot product your counter argument in God's Word that Adam chooses sin?

You really dont get it, do you ?
*IF* what you believe is true, friend, then you arent even arguing with ME...*I* am a mindless drone who does what GOD causes me to do...isnt that right ? ;)
So you are basically arguing with your god....and thus wasting your time.

Is God's Word lying or are you going to show scriptural truth that Adam choose sin and God had nothing to do with that choice?

Gods word isnt lying...you are simply MISrepresenting it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Where is your scripural proof Adam cause the fall?

:D
Oh man...thats rich.
I cant even say what this is making run thru my head because Im certain I'd be warned for it.
You are unbelievable.

God tells Adam NOT to eat of a certain tree or Adam would die.
Adam does anyway and so God punishes Adam and YOU cant figure out how Adam causes the separation between man and God :D

What a hoot.

You claim God's Word is lying

If anyone is lying it would be you, not God ;)

to you' so prove your truth you claim with God's Word not spin... bias opinion... assuptions.... BUT WITH GOD's Bible. Who is the liar here God's Word or your assuption. PROVE it...

and again....since we're going to repeat ourselves 100 more times here.

Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:1pdgnfzo]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..[/quote:1pdgnfzo]

 

[follower of Christ]

Benoni.
Can you explain why you keep avoiding the question I asked before ?

I'll ask you again...when a man rapes a baby, is GOD ordaining for him to do it ? YES...or...NO ???

Then possibly ANSWER it ?
Its not that complicated.
You claim that God 'ordains' our sin....so what is the answer to the above question ?
Does God 'ordain' for men to rape babies/small children when they do it?

 

[Benoni]

Call it what you want but address God's Word with truth from Scripture not your assuption and boring comments. You cannot do it so you claim it is a lie but then you cannot back up your shallow claim with nothing but your bias opinion. HOGWASH to your opinion.... There is nothing God does not know or total control; there is no devil that has power or authority over God that includes evil, God created Satan I proved that with God’s Word; you called God’s Word a lie and never gave any proof why when I posted this valid verse..

Here it is again, is it lying and if is is prove o me it is lying and not with opinion or spin.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

You called God's Word a lie and never back it up with anything but assumptions; all you give is your opinion and spin; answer the question.

God is God and controls all good and evil; God created the tree of good and evil; it was not called the tree of good.

Who even knows what your point is.

I'll ask again...
When a man rapes a child is it 'ordained' by GOD ???

Answer the question, please.

Back to little Adam who had no choice.

Sure he did.
Nothing youve shown proves otherwise.

[quote:m99tsyqt]No one never said it was not good; but that does not mean God cannot make it better, you already admitted God foreknew the fall; but you still blame it on little Adam.

:D
So your absurd conclusion is that foreKNOWING = CONTROLLING....what a hoot.
God can FOREKNOW without CONTROLLING
He can KNOW Adam is going to CHOOSE to sin and ALLOW Adam the free will to do so.

If God foreknew Adam would sin; then God had total sovereignty over that fall and it was God’s plan all the time not little Adam.

Sovereignty does not equal micromanaging. Learn the difference.
Gods sovereignty is proven when He DOESNT have to micromanage or CAUSE man to sin but yet remains the final authority.

Where does it say Adam had a choice;

Pathetic.
WHERE does it say Adam DIDNT ?
Youve shown us NOTHING that says as much so far. EVERY passage youve presented has to have it read INTO it to conclude what you do.

or are you still going to claim God's Word is lying to you but you cannot product your counter argument in God's Word that Adam chooses sin?

You really dont get it, do you ?
*IF* what you believe is true, friend, then you arent even arguing with ME...*I* am a mindless drone who does what GOD causes me to do...isnt that right ? ;)
So you are basically arguing with your god....and thus wasting your time.

Is God's Word lying or are you going to show scriptural truth that Adam choose sin and God had nothing to do with that choice?

Gods word isnt lying...you are simply MISrepresenting it.[/quote:m99tsyqt]

 

[Benoni]

God is God not your little god. Now show me proof of your claims these verses are lying.

Benoni.
Can you explain why you keep avoiding the question I asked before ?
[quote="follower of Christ":39ekmbuf]
I'll ask you again...when a man rapes a baby, is GOD ordaining for him to do it ? YES...or...NO ???

Then possibly ANSWER it ?
Its not that complicated.
You claim that God 'ordains' our sin....so what is the answer to the above question ?
Does God 'ordain' for men to rape babies/small children when they do it?[/quote:39ekmbuf]

 

[follower of Christ]

Absurdities of God 'ordaining' mans sin.

"Sure I know Im not supposed to beat and rape you honey, but GOD is making me do it"

"Sir, I now Im not supposed to bash your skull in with this hammer, but GOD is making me "

"Hey there bank teller, I know the bible tells me not to steal, but God is making me rob you"

 

[follower of Christ]

Just as I figured.
READERS take note that benoni is refusing to answer this simple question.
Ask yourself why.
Benoni seems to lack the convictions of his own views.

God is God not your little god. Now show me proof of your claims these verses are lying.

Benoni.
Can you explain why you keep avoiding the question I asked before ?
[quote="follower of Christ":3pq36diy]
I'll ask you again...when a man rapes a baby, is GOD ordaining for him to do it ? YES...or...NO ???

Then possibly ANSWER it ?
Its not that complicated.
You claim that God 'ordains' our sin....so what is the answer to the above question ?
Does God 'ordain' for men to rape babies/small children when they do it?

[/quote:3pq36diy]
Heres the question again, benoni, should you step up to the plate and actually answer it

I'll ask you again...when a man rapes a baby, is GOD ordaining for him to do it ? YES...or...NO ???

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Call it what you want but address God's Word with truth from Scripture not your assuption and boring comments.

easy enough.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

Now show me where it SAYS that GOD CAUSED the fall...

Here it is again, is it lying and if is is prove o me it is lying and not with opinion or spin.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Huh.
Dont see a single thing there about the TOPIC....God CAUSING the fall

You called God's Word a lie and never back it up with anything but assumptions; all you give is your opinion and spin; answer the question.

yeah...heres my spin...

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

 

[follower of Christ]

This thread has really run its course and is nothing but the same old tired arguments.
It ought to be locked and forgotten.

 

[Benoni]

God tells Adam NOT to eat of a certain tree or Adam would die.
Adam does anyway and so God punishes Adam and YOU cant figure out how Adam causes the separation between man and God

Yes God told Adam not to sin. But you even told me your self God knew about the fall before it happened. God made Adam innocent, naive; God put the tree of good and evil in the garden, God knew Adam would disobey him long before Adam and eve were ever formed.

It was God brought into Eden a poisonous serpent, a murderer, a MANSLAYER (Gen. 3: 1). Having prepared all this HE THEN BROUGHT MAN INTO THE GARDEN. Having brought man into the Garden, GOD PUT HIM INTO THE PATHWAY OF A COMPLETE COLLAPSE. It was God who turned man to destruction, set him on this downward course, sent him into outer darkness, and made him subject to vanity.
God our Father has never once blamed man for the fall, but takes the responsibility for it Himself when He says, "For the creation was subjected to frailty - to futility, condemned to frustration - not because of some intentional fault on its part , BUT BY THE WILL OF HIM WHO SO SUBJECTED IT. YET WITH THE HOPE that creation itself WILL BE SET FREE from its bondage to decay and corruption and gain an entrance into the glorious freedom of God's children"

So according to what you are telling me God s is not: omnipotent, having virtually unlimited authority or influence; because if He has limited authority and cannot deal with something He did not plan; so He can only allow?

Nor could God be omniscience all knowledge; to all things; because He did not plan Adam’s sin/fall as well as death which decided only after the fall all He could do was curse man and hope for the best; this whole issue is just to out of control.

Nor could He be omniscient having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight 2 :possessed of universal or complete knowledge. He was just so unaware of Adam and Eve’s fall/sin that effected all humanity; BILLIONS; God just did not know or see this coming?? That Devil has just gotten too big and evil more powerful then God’s good?

God is not so naive and helpless as you try and make Him a god; He is Lord of lord, King of kings, the mighty God.

 

[Benoni]

What do you expect you keep saying God's word is lying because it does not fit your religion; I am just getting started....

This thread has really run its course and is nothing but the same old tired arguments.
It ought to be locked and forgotten.

 

[Benoni]

Now show me where it SAYS that GOD CAUSED the fall...

Open your eyes....

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[Benoni]

You sure would like that because it is either God's Word is lying or your opinion based on spin.

This thread has really run its course and is nothing but the same old tired arguments.
It ought to be locked and forgotten.