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Did God Cause the Fall?

That is your problem is you follow man and reject God's Word. It is the Holy Spirit job to lead and guide you into all truth not scholarly men; just ask the Jews they did the same pattern/thing. What man is better qualified then God's Spirit with in you?




follower of Christ said:
Benoni said:
There is no sentence break in this statement;
Im sorry but the TRANSLATORS...you know..the guys who actually KNOW Hebrew, says one belongs there.
You certainly DONT expect us to believe YOU over the men who are better qualified in the matter, do you ?
THESE ALL use the SAME puncuation indicating a sentence break at the END of verse 2
Psa 90:2

(ASV) Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(LITV) Before the mountains were born, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(MKJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(YLT) Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.
They are all wrong, arent they ? ;)
Everyones wrong but benoni...all those translators who AGREE where the break belongs...right ? ;)

[quote:2hpjr47j] you are the one that cannot put all of the words down in this passage that were there, because it does not conform the way you see it.
PUHlease...
NOTHING in that passage says a thing about God causing mans fall....which AGAIN is the actual topic here.

I do not need to be a scholar of Greek or Hebrew to look at the context and content of the verse; all I need is eyes to see; eyes that do have a preconceived agenda.
Right.
Everyones got it wrong but benoni...isnt that right :nono
Again, the REAL scholars of Hebrew seem to agree where the second sentence ENDS and the third BEGINS;
Psa 90:2

(ASV) Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(LITV) Before the mountains were born, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(MKJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God.

(YLT) Before mountains were brought forth, And Thou dost form the earth and the world, Even from age unto age Thou art God.

This verse declares "Thou turnest man to destruction" if that is not the fall then there is no fall.
Non-sequitur nonsense.
Whatever the intent of that SENTENCE that starts in verse 3 it does NOT indicate any state PRIOR to the fall. YOU add that thought INTO the verse, as you do with EVERY verse you present.

Before the mountains were brought forth; it does not say “not after the earth was formed†before Adam's fall.
Again...thats a different sentence.
Stop pretending as tho YOU are qualified to tell us where the sentence breaks occur. You arent.
Then it takes the content and context even more back in time before the fall " or ever thou hadst formed the earth" after all this thencomes to the fall" Thou turnest man to destruction" how deliberately blind can you get?
Apparently not as blind as you wish to make yourself seeing that *I* accept the ACTUAL scholars of Hebrews understanding of where the sentence breaks occur.

You take all of this then you add to the fact you have never presented one verse is scripture that declares man cause the fall or man has a freewill to save himself.
Please...stop with the Red Herrings and straw men here.
NO ONE HAS SAID that man has the ABILITY to save himself. But your continually misrepresenting us makes it clear that you are getting desperate.
Man CANNOT save himself from the separation from God that now exists BECAUSE Adam chose to rebel...man can ONLY RESPOND to the Fathers drawing him either positively or negatively using the FREE WILL give to man by our Sovereign God.[/quote:2hpjr47j]
 
Drew You said" However, I believe that we can recognize this condition and "freely" accept a remedy offered us by God. I am pretty sure we part company on this one"

How can someone dead freely choose anything? Have you ever asked a dead man to choose; I know better?

Walk up to any spiritually dead man and speak to him about Jesus; he will spit in your face for he is about as dead as you can get when it comes to seeing and hearing God. Where does it say carnal Adamic man has a freewill to serve God. On the contrary.
 
Benoni said:
All men are born in sin; all men are born of Adam and are born with a carnal human nature. It takes God's spirit to quicken us out of that death state; before we can hear or see anything spirtual.

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:
While I agree that we are born into sin, I do not think this text from 1 Cor 15 is valid support - it is a text about the future resurrection from the dead, not a treatment of God working in the lives of sinner to regenerate them.
 
Benoni said:
How can someone dead freely choose anything? Have you ever asked a dead man to choose; I know better?

Walk up to any spiritually dead man and speak to him about Jesus; he will spit in your face for he is about as dead as you can get when it comes to seeing and hearing God.
This line of reasoning has a number of problems.

One that is easy to show is the "a dead person cannot do anything" argument. Benoni, I am not specifically "accusing" you of holding to this view. I am talking about the frankly silly argument that runs as follows:

1. Man is spiritually dead;
2. Dead people cannot do anything;
3. Therefore, man cannot freely accept grace.

Well this argument clearly cannot work. There are plenty of unbelievers - who must be "spiritually" dead - who do all sorts of things - get up in the morning, go to work, ride their bikes, etc. So this overly simplistic argument is simply wrong.

I believe that that the "deadness" of mankind "in trespass and sin" is a "moral deadness" not a "cognitive" deadness. Our hopelessly fallen "moral" condition need not mean that we have lost the faculty to recognize ourselves as being in that state and then accept aid offered to us.

As per the stuff at the beginning, I would warn readers on all sides here to not assume that "dead" means "dead in every respect". We often use the term "dead" to refer to one aspect or dimension of a person's capacities (e.g. Fred is emotionally dead).

Consider this analogy: Let's say that my brain has been damaged in such a way that it is impossible for me to understand general relativity. Does this mean I cannot recognize and become aware of my incapacity in regard to general relativity? Obviously not. Blind people cannot see, but that does not mean they are not aware that sighted people have a capability that gives new information about the world.

In this example, I am "dead in my ignorance of general relativity", but I am not dead in other respects.

Suppose a surgeon comes along and says "We have this new operation that can fix your brain so that you can understand general relativity". Can I understand what he is claiming? Of course. Just like a blind person can understand that a certain operation might give him sight, even if he does not know what sight be like once he gets it (he has been blind from birth).
I trust the analogy is clear here. Unless it can be argued that our "deadness" extends to and includes our capacity to make judgements about ourselves and accept "a gift" that fixes our deadness, I do not see how texts like Eph 2:3 support a predestination worldview.
 
Benoni said:
Where does it say carnal Adamic man has a freewill to serve God. On the contrary.
Well, for one, I have yet to hear any scriptural argument that I believe denies the capacity of mankind to freely accept grace.

Second, the absence of a text that says "man has freewill to choose God" is not a good argument that man, indeed, does not have such free will.

It is often claimed that the Scriptures never assert the reality of free will (for people). This question might not be entirely fair if the writers of scripture were coming from a worldview where "human freedom" was such a widely accepted and deeply ingrained concept that it simply need not be stated explicitly. Instead, the concept gets bundled into other concepts, concepts like "choose", "select", "decide", etc.

Anyone familiar with western culture will know that there is an implication of free will when we use these words in day to day life. Evidence for this includes the fact that someone would be considered whacky if they suggested that an apple "chose" or "decided" to fall from the tree. And yet we consider it perfectly all right to say that a person "chose" to go to a baseball game or "decided" to read a book.

The reason for this discrepancy is, of course, the fact that modern westerners basically all believe in the reality of free will, and that people have it and apples do not. Suppose that someone wrote a vast sweeping story with all sorts of human choices and decisions being described, with nary a clear statement that these choices and decisions were free. Would it be legitimate to claim the author did not believe in the reality of free will? Of course not. The author’s belief is clearly evidenced by his/her word selection – phrases like “he chose†and “she decided†have free will implicitly bundled into them.

So the absence of clear scriptural assertions about man having free will is not evidence that the writers did not believe men have some degree of free will.
 
When I speak of death; I speak of death as a symbolism or an example to the death state all men are born in. This nothng to do with man funtioning as a living carnal man; but everthing to do as man funtioning as a spiritual man or towards spiritual things. Man has no freewill or choice to serve God until God draws him quicken him out of mans caranl state.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)



Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Drew said:
Benoni said:
How can someone dead freely choose anything? Have you ever asked a dead man to choose; I know better?

Walk up to any spiritually dead man and speak to him about Jesus; he will spit in your face for he is about as dead as you can get when it comes to seeing and hearing God.
This line of reasoning has a number of problems.

One that is easy to show is the "a dead person cannot do anything" argument. Benoni, I am not specifically "accusing" you of holding to this view. I am talking about the frankly silly argument that runs as follows:

1. Man is spiritually dead;
2. Dead people cannot do anything;
3. Therefore, man cannot freely accept grace.

Well this argument clearly cannot work. There are plenty of unbelievers - who must be "spiritually" dead - who do all sorts of things - get up in the morning, go to work, ride their bikes, etc. So this overly simplistic argument is simply wrong.

I believe that that the "deadness" of mankind "in trespass and sin" is a "moral deadness" not a "cognitive" deadness. Our hopelessly fallen "moral" condition need not mean that we have lost the faculty to recognize ourselves as being in that state and then accept aid offered to us.

As per the stuff at the beginning, I would warn readers on all sides here to not assume that "dead" means "dead in every respect". We often use the term "dead" to refer to one aspect or dimension of a person's capacities (e.g. Fred is emotionally dead).

Consider this analogy: Let's say that my brain has been damaged in such a way that it is impossible for me to understand general relativity. Does this mean I cannot recognize and become aware of my incapacity in regard to general relativity? Obviously not. Blind people cannot see, but that does not mean they are not aware that sighted people have a capability that gives new information about the world.

In this example, I am "dead in my ignorance of general relativity", but I am not dead in other respects.

Suppose a surgeon comes along and says "We have this new operation that can fix your brain so that you can understand general relativity". Can I understand what he is claiming? Of course. Just like a blind person can understand that a certain operation might give him sight, even if he does not know what sight be like once he gets it (he has been blind from birth).
I trust the analogy is clear here. Unless it can be argued that our "deadness" extends to and includes our capacity to make judgements about ourselves and accept "a gift" that fixes our deadness, I do not see how texts like Eph 2:3 support a predestination worldview.
 
I need to work I will show you later.

Drew said:
Benoni said:
Where does it say carnal Adamic man has a freewill to serve God. On the contrary.
Well, for one, I have yet to hear any scriptural argument that I believe denies the capacity of mankind to freely accept grace.

Second, the absence of a text that says "man has freewill to choose God" is not a good argument that man, indeed, does not have such free will.

It is often claimed that the Scriptures never assert the reality of free will (for people). This question might not be entirely fair if the writers of scripture were coming from a worldview where "human freedom" was such a widely accepted and deeply ingrained concept that it simply need not be stated explicitly. Instead, the concept gets bundled into other concepts, concepts like "choose", "select", "decide", etc.

Anyone familiar with western culture will know that there is an implication of free will when we use these words in day to day life. Evidence for this includes the fact that someone would be considered whacky if they suggested that an apple "chose" or "decided" to fall from the tree. And yet we consider it perfectly all right to say that a person "chose" to go to a baseball game or "decided" to read a book.

The reason for this discrepancy is, of course, the fact that modern westerners basically all believe in the reality of free will, and that people have it and apples do not. Suppose that someone wrote a vast sweeping story with all sorts of human choices and decisions being described, with nary a clear statement that these choices and decisions were free. Would it be legitimate to claim the author did not believe in the reality of free will? Of course not. The author’s belief is clearly evidenced by his/her word selection – phrases like “he chose†and “she decided†have free will implicitly bundled into them.

So the absence of clear scriptural assertions about man having free will is not evidence that the writers did not believe men have some degree of free will.
 
Quickly before I run; God’s Word does address this point of man not having a freewill to choose God in that man must be drawn. Man is a slave to sin, man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God; man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation; this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not mans carnal mind believing on by its own will.


The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved.

In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me as you so wisely posted. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

There are eight examples in the NT that shows this word draw means force; Peter drew his sword is one example; the disciples drew their net; the net did not choose or have a freewill neither did the sword.

Notice Ephesians 2: 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active  LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power  making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Notice the order, god must quicken us be we are dead in sins; then He saves us by grace; then and only then do we have faith and I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
 
Benoni said:
All men are born in sin; all men are born of Adam and are born with a carnal human nature. It takes God's spirit to quicken us out of that death state; before we can hear or see anything spirtual.
a state which was the RESULT of Adams SIN

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:
EXACTLY!

.
1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

NO ONE, NO man, women child CAN COME TO ME, except the Father DRAW/DRAG/FORCES him.
Please...dont try this 'force' nonsense. that DOESNT fit the context.
God does not FORCE men to come to Him or love Him and such a preposterous error undermines the entire PURPOSE of His creating man...

The first step is right here; without the first step you cannot believe
Yeah...I think we ALREADY covered this :nag
Here it is again in a bit more in depth explanation. Notice the context of the verse.. (1) He must quicken you; why (2) because you are dead in trespasses and sins. (3) By grace we are saved, (4) then and then only then can you have faith (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
WHICH IS A RESULT OF ADAMS SIN as you JUST posted above !

This 'state' did NOT exist BEFORE Adam sinned and the punishment of death was given FOR sin.
.Eph. 2: 1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Yep...we're ALL dead in our sins UNTIL He brings us to life....we are dead in sin BECAUSE Adam sinned and things were passed onto all men, just as Paul shows



2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast
wonderful passage. I love Ephesians better than any other book.
It doesnt support your error, however.

I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
Ah..so NOW you are wavering in your views.
I thought man had NO choice or freewill from the START ???
 
Benoni said:
That is your problem is you follow man and reject God's Word.
Dude, you need to find a new line...one that isnt entirely lame.
The ONLY thing we reject here is YOUR distortion of the texts and their intent.
It is the Holy Spirit job to lead and guide you into all truth not scholarly men;
Not even a nice try.
Do you speak Hebrew and Koine Greek ?
If not, friend, then YOU are subject to the work of SCHOLARS !
And even if you DID speak those languages you STILL would be READING the words of scholars who have written and REwritten Gods word down thru the ages.

just ask the Jews they did the same pattern/thing. What man is better qualified then God's Spirit with in you?
The Spirit is telling me that you are wrong and must be exposed.

.
 
Benoni said:
Drew You said" However, I believe that we can recognize this condition and "freely" accept a remedy offered us by God. I am pretty sure we part company on this one"

How can someone dead freely choose anything? Have you ever asked a dead man to choose; I know better?
come on guy, lets not be absurd.
Man is SPIRITUALLY dead...he CAN choose among the options he has been given.
Once the Father draws him then its an option. Until then it isnt.
This isnt brain surgery.


Walk up to any spiritually dead man and speak to him about Jesus; he will spit in your face for he is about as dead as you can get when it comes to seeing and hearing God. Where does it say carnal Adamic man has a freewill to serve God. On the contrary.
That is because he has either not been drawn yet, thus hasnt been presented with the OPTION...or he has been drawn and REJECTED God.
Either way when the option is available MAN DOES make the choice. Which is the PURPOSE of mans creation. A being who CAN choose to love his Creator WILLINGLY.
Your fallacy undermines the ENTIRE reason for God creating mankind.
 
Drew said:
Benoni said:
All men are born in sin; all men are born of Adam and are born with a carnal human nature. It takes God's spirit to quicken us out of that death state; before we can hear or see anything spirtual.

1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:
While I agree that we are born into sin, I do not think this text from 1 Cor 15 is valid support - it is a text about the future resurrection from the dead, not a treatment of God working in the lives of sinner to regenerate them.
The main thing it does support is that all die in Adam...which is evidence enough that ADAM was the cause of his own fall by his choice to sin against God.
 
Benoni said:
When I speak of death; I speak of death as a symbolism or an example to the death state all men are born in.
Born in BECAUSE of Adam, just as Paul states clearly.
Man has no freewill or choice to serve God until God draws him quicken him out of mans caranl state.
When God draws man has the CHOICE offered to him to love and follow God or rebel.

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually. A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man.
Adams death was the RESULT of his CHOOSING to take the fruit from his wife who had already been duped into sinning.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
There ya go....ADAM WAS the root of the state we are in now, like it or not.
That 'little man' did FAR more than you seem to believe.
 
Benoni said:
A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man.
How can this be true. As I sit in this office eating my lunch, I am surrounded by unbelievers - people who are spiritually dead. And yet they clearly "hear, see, touch, and feel".

Benoni said:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This text is about coming resurrection from the dead. It is not about a sinner being "quickened unto belief" in this present life.

Benoni, I am not sure I understand what you are saying in the rest of the post (from which I have quoted extracts). I think this is how we stand on these matters:

1. We agree that all men are born into slavery to sin;
2. We disagree on the "mechanics" of how we escape - I think we have a "free will" role to play, you do not.
 
Benoni said:
The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT;.
I don't think this is much of a case. Most modern westerners believe in the reality of free will. Only a small number of people believe otherwise. And yet nobody walks around making explicit declarations of such a belief. It is so deeply held and so fundamental that is simply assumed to part of the backdrop.

So if a person wrote a long story about people "choosing" this or "deciding" that, and never explicitly asserts a belief in free will, can we assume they do not believe in free will? Of course not!

Same with the Bible - the absence of explicit statement about free will does not really work against the free will position.
 
Benoni said:
Quickly before I run; God’s Word does address this point of man not having a freewill to choose God in that man must be drawn. Man is a slave to sin, man is dead in trespasses and it is his nature to totally reject all things of God;
Man is in this state BECAUSE of Adams sin.

And you seemingly make another error in your assessment.
Paul shows very conclusively that those without the law CAN exhibit things OF the law....
For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves; who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
(Romans 2:14-15 MKJV)


G4893
ÃÆ’Ã…νείδηÃιÂ
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.
These 'do by NATURE" the things OF the law.
There seems to be a LOT more to this picture than you either know or want to admit.
"Their CONSCIENCE also bearing witness'.
Huh. man has a conscience that might line up with God in some things...waddayaknow ....
man has no choice or freewill to choose his own salvation;
No one here said he did. You keep running to this straw man.

this is a religious myth and not a scriptural act; if anything the Bible teaches it is God who draws; it is Jesus that saves not mans carnal mind believing on by its own will.
God draws giving man the option, man then either chooses to repent or he chooses to continue in rebellion.
The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation.
Again with the strawman nonsense.
NO ONE HERE is claiming that man can save himself.
Its VERY clear why you continue to push this misrepresentation...its all you have left here.

The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved.
the word 'free will' doesnt NEED to be in the texts.
Instruction PRESUMES the abililty to CHOOSE to obey or not obey.

In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me as you so wisely posted. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
Thats nice and all but it doesnt fit the CONTEXT of the whole concerning how God interacts with mankind.
Scripture shows VERY conclusively that man CAN reject God....so there is something wrong about your 'forcing' an interpretation into this verse where it DOESNT line up with the rest of the data...

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence
[quote:2vjxk8i1]See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)
The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)


Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)
[/quote:2vjxk8i1]
 
Benoni,
Brother I notice that you still didnt answer my question in any direct fashion.
Could you explain why that is ?
Its not a hard question at all and only requires a yes or no response.

Does God 'ordain' men raping children ?
Yes...or ....no ?



.
 
follower of Christ said:
The main thing it does support is that all die in Adam...which is evidence enough that ADAM was the cause of his own fall by his choice to sin against God.
I agree. I think that Paul clearly asserts that the "problem" (of the sin nature) arose through Adam's sin (Romans 5). Since this problem of being "born sinners with no ability to not sin" started with Adam's fall, we should indeed conclude that Adam was indeed "free" to choose not to sin.
 
follower of Christ said:
Benoni,
Brother I notice that you still didnt answer my question in any direct fashion.
Could you explain why that is ?
Its not a hard question at all and only requires a yes or no response.

Does God 'ordain' men raping children ?
Yes...or ....no ?



.
I think Benoni already answered that question. Read his verses.



*** Yes, I really did enjoy saying that.... its the same exact answer follower of Christ gave me when I asked him if he believes the fall of Adam had any effect upon our natures.
 
mondar said:
follower of Christ said:
Benoni,
Brother I notice that you still didnt answer my question in any direct fashion.
Could you explain why that is ?
Its not a hard question at all and only requires a yes or no response.

Does God 'ordain' men raping children ?
Yes...or ....no ?



.
I think Benoni already answered that question. Read his verses.

actually he didnt give me HIS clear answer saying yes or no that God 'ordains' it....read his POST.


.
 
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