Did God Cause the Fall?

[Benoni]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

I have no free will.
"god" is making me argue this issue with you folks so why are you getting upset with me ?

:yes

You can argue this all you want; which has nothing to do with God making you argue this point. I said this before we all have a freewill to sin, to buy a car if we can afford it. BUT we do not have a freewill where and when we were born nor do we have a freewill to save our selves.

 

[follower of Christ]

You can argue this all you want; which has nothing to do with God making you argue this point. I said this before we all have a freewill to sin, to buy a car if we can afford it. BUT we do not have a freewill where and when we were born nor do we have a freewill to save our selves.

And your point is what ?
So I didnt choose my parents....that has nothing to do with creation being subjected to corruption by God prior to the fall of man....

 

[Benoni]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

I have no free will.
"god" is making me argue this issue with you folks so why are you getting upset with me ?

:yes

Carnal man is a slave to sin; and not only does he not have a freewill or choice to receive the things of God it is his nature to totally reject all things of God and that is the way God created him. The carnal man is dead; when Adam died we all died; but Adam did not die physically the moment of the curse; he live physically until Genesis 5:5 and was 930 years old.

But spiritual death happened to him and Eve; they lost that communion with the Father in heaven.
Can a dead man see, hear, smell, taste; etc. No this is double true to a spiritual dead man who cannot see, hear the things of God. A lot of our religious brothers are pretty dead too. Just because you are a believer does not stop you from being carnal.

If God does not quicken you; you are spiritually dead.
.
People believing in freewill or choice have no scriptural reference just like your self, all based on opinion an vague asumption and NO SCRIPTURAL reference.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully. For example, in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..."

When the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn!

In Acts 16:19. When Paul and Silas were vexed by the demonic slave girl, Paul cast the evil spirit out of her. Her masters saw that all hope of profit was gone, so they grabbed the two servants of Jesus and forcibly dragged them to the judges in the market place. We read: "And when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the market place unto the rulers."

 

[Benoni]

You can argue this all you want; which has nothing to do with God making you argue this point. I said this before we all have a freewill to sin, to buy a car if we can afford it. BUT we do not have a freewill where and when we were born nor do we have a freewill to save our selves.

And your point is what ?
So I didnt choose my parents....that has nothing to do with creation being subjected to corruption by God prior to the fall of man....

Your right; Romans 8:20 declares that which ou dismiss with nothing but your bias opinion and not one verse in scripture. Your opinion means nothing compared to God's Word.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

If you are going to dismiss God's Word how about backing it up with substance in stead of your bias religious feelings.

 

[follower of Christ]

Your right; Romans 8:20 declares that which ou dismiss with nothing but your bias opinion and not one verse in scripture. Your opinion means nothing compared to God's Word

AGAIN....Romans 8:20 does NOT SAY that GOD subjected first of all. SOME believe 'he' who is subjecting there is SATAN, NOT God...so AGAIN the passages INTENT is NOT certain...and certainly NOT a good passage to base doctrine on.
But for those who like to distort Gods word, these confusing verses are a gold mine since they can be perverted so easily....
And AGAIN it does NOT say that this subjection existed PRIOR to mans fall.

If you are going to dismiss God's Word how about backing it up with substance in stead of your bias religious feelings.

Again....we're not dismissing GODS word but YOUR distortion of it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Carnal man is a slave to sin; and not only does he not have a freewill or choice to receive the things of God it is his nature to totally reject all things of God and that is the way God created him.
The carnal man is dead; when Adam died we all died; but Adam did not die physically the moment of the curse; he live physically until Genesis 5:5 and was 930 years old.

And when ADAM was created and UNTIL Adam sinned God was STILL IN FELLOWSHIP with man.
There is NO evidence that creation was subjected to corruption PRIOR to mans decision to disobey.

But spiritual death happened to him and Eve;

And THERE you go.
everything was GOOD and Adam and Eve WERE in fellowship with God.
AFTER they chose to disobey THEN creation that WAS 'good' became subjected to vanity and futility.

People believing in freewill or choice have no scriptural reference just like your self, all based on opinion an vague asumption and NO SCRIPTURAL reference.

Please...we all can see here that without words like 'freewill' or 'trinity' you are seemingly incapable of connecting even the most obvious of dots...

People who dont believe in free will (the ability to CHOOSE WHEN choices are possible) have completely misunderstood the POINT of creation...

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully. For example, in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..."


When the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn!

When the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn!

Ive seen this nonsense enough already.
Man CAN resist BECAUSE God ALLOWS man to resist...
THAT is part of the PERMISSIVE will of God.

 

[Benoni]

Spin, spin, spin with no scriptural backing. I show you the word draw, I show how it is used it God’s Word and you give me more of you vague religious opinion; with nothing scripturally to back up your bias vague religious point.

If anyone cannot connect the dots it is you; we addressed the trinity and to this day just like the word freewill you cannot prove either even exist using God’s Word. I asked you how many times to show me where in scripture is the word freewill or choice used with Adam’s fall, as well as man’s salvation. I also asked if you can show me in God’s Word where is says God is made up of three persons; You have never connected the dots on either of these subjects; by QUOTING God’s Word not you vague, bias opinion.

Carnal man has to resist, his will must resist because; he has no power but to resist until God draws him. This so called nonsense is backed by verses from the Bible not my opinion which is all you have.
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[follower of Christ]

Spin, spin, spin with no scriptural backing.

Find a new line.
The ONLY scriptures youve presented have been horribly mangled by you and another poster here.
Dont waste our time pretending like youve offered anything but your own personal agenda and additions to the texts.
You HAVE been given scriptures in this thread and you KNOW it. You just ignore the clear scriptures and pervert those that arent so clear to suit your error.

I show you the word draw, I show how it is used it God’s Word and you give me more of you vague religious opinion; with nothing scripturally to back up your bias vague religious point.

The definition of ONE word and YOUR twist on it is NOTHING compared to the overwhelming evidence in the scriptures that PROVE your absurd fallacy wrong.

If anyone cannot connect the dots it is you;

Keep telling yourself that nonsense,friend, maybe it'll sink in

we addressed the trinity and to this day just like the word freewill you cannot prove either even exist using God’s Word.

"just like"....EXACTLY.
Your offer the same pathetic illogical reasoning to both...which is why you cant seem to figure out either..

I asked you how many times to show me where in scripture is the word freewill or choice used with Adam’s fall, as well as man’s salvation.

And youve been GIVEN evidence for BOTH...but apparently you prefer to ignore any CLEAR scriptures you wish and hide behind what you can pervert in Gods word

Mans Choice
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

Now make up your excuses why that doesnt supposedly mean what it SAYS.
MAN, not God, is the source of his OWN sinfulness.
MAN, not God, DECIDES to follow his lusts into sin.
MAN exercises his free will TO commit sin, GOD is not responsible for that choice.

The Trinity
http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=187

Carnal man has to resist, his will must resist because; he has no power but to resist until God draws him. This so called nonsense is backed by verses from the Bible not my opinion which is all you have. Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

AGAIN....there is NO evidence that creation was SUBJECTED to vanity/futility PRIOR to ADams fall.
All I see you doing now is barking all over the place trying to distract from the FACT that youve lost the ACTUAL discussion here.
We ALL know that NO ONE comes to the Son unless the Father draws him first.
What I see is that you are seeing that youve lost this discussion about God causing the fall and now are running to anything you can to smokescreen that fact.

The topic here is 'Did God CAUSE the fall'....not 'Can man come to the Son without the Father drawing him'.
Man can only come to the Son if the FAther is drawing him....we ALL know that.
God did NOT 'cause' man to CHOOSE to sin and thus separate himself from God.
If youre connecting those together then your entire doctrine is based in error and horrid non-sequitur illogic.

God did NOT cause the fall and had NOT subjected creation to CORRUPTION while CALLING IT GOOD !
YOUR fallacy has to say that God said that creation was GOOD while it was CORRUPT because HE CORRUPTED IT Himself....preposterous

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Again with this godless perversion of a rendering.
There is NOTHING in the ACTUAL text of Romans 8:20 that says the the created world was 'bound to fail' as this perverse version youre pushing says.
READERS SEE the link to see what the ACTUAL greek text shows >>>Romans 8:20

Rom 8:20

(ASV) For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope

(EMTV) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but on account of Him who subjected it in hope;

(ISV) because the creation was subjected to frustration, though not by its own choice. The one who subjected it did so in the hope

(KJV) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

(LITV) For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;

(MKJV) For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope

(YLT) for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:2kn4yffd]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..
[/quote:2kn4yffd]

 

[Benoni]

You said “The ONLY scriptures youve presented have been horribly mangled by youâ€Â; well seeing I cut and pasted these scripture which you claimed I mangled, that would be impossible to mangled them.

If anything you are ignoring what this verse declares; you posted seven verses that says the same thing and you ignored their content too. On top of that you never give any verse of God's Word to counter what the verse declare.

I have also posted at least four other translations which you ignore in addition to Ps. 90.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

You try to forget or ignores the facts of Romans 8:20 because according to you it was “Adam’s choice†not what God's Word declares “Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curseâ€Â. You are trying to tell me little earthy Adam can choose something that effected all of humanity and God had no say in the matter even though Romans 8 declares “For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willinglyâ€Â. Adam had to fall; he could choose nothing over God’s Sovereign and complete will; no freewill there just doing what He was ordained to do. You are telling me choose disobey even thought Roman 8 declares. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

They had no choose, it was against their will; where are you getting your information? Freewill is a non scriptural term; comes from false religious dogma, man made creeds; NOT the BIBLE.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Yes you have quoted: James 1:13-15 three or four times and every time I have explained to you this is true; but has nothing to do with Adam’s fall; and has everything to do with our sins now.

The curse happened because God ordained it. The reason we sin today is because that is the way God created us. So when I sin; I am a slave to sin, I cannot help it; I do not blame God for my sin; I praise him because of the cross of Jesus that He has reverse the curse.

It was Satan who tempted Adam who was ordained by God cause the sin, the and Jesus who was tempted by Satan who was ordain to overcome sin; with out a sinner there is no reason for a savior; GOD does not want innocent puppets on a string or a servants; God desires overcoming sons.

James 1:13 never speaks of man having a freewill or choice[/b]; it speaks of temptation; Satan does the temptation; but Satan has no power unless God directs or totally controls that power; I have already posted this pertaining to Job who God inquired Satan about.

You have no Bible verses that show man has a freewill or choice; then you spin the verses that declare to the contrary.


James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

All are tempted by Satan, Satan is a tool in the HANDS of a all soverign GOD.

Yes God said it was good; BUT as I said before just because it was good does not mean God wants it to be awesome. God want manifested sons not naïve innocent servants; this is why we are here, to maturity spiritually; not religiously.

What is the faith of a mustard seed, or a watermelon seed, or an apple seed? It is the faith to grow. How can anything grow if God has ordained it complete? Yes it was good, my grandson is good; but he has a whole life ahead of him to grow, mature and develop; Jesus did not even start his ministry until he was 30 years old, why? Because that was the appointed time God ordained his son to be a full mature man.

Yes my grandson is under the curse just like you and I, but this whole world is God’s and is the place where God uses good and evil for his maturing manifested sons; those sons or saviors will become kings and priest for the remainder of all of God’s creation.

 

[follower of Christ]

You said “The ONLY scriptures youve presented have been horribly mangled by youâ€Â; well seeing I cut and pasted this scripture which you claimed I mangled that would be impossible I mangled it.
If anything you are ignoring what this verse declares; you posted seven verses that says the same thing and you ignored their content too.

Im ignoring your perversion of the intent and your ADDITIONS to what is actually STATED in those verses.
NONE of which STATES that God subjected creation to anything PRIOR to Adams sin.

I have also posted at least four other translations which you ignore plus

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Im sorry...THIS thread is about GOD CAUSING the fall.
WHERE again does that SAY that 'God CAUSED ADAM to choose to sin ? ;)
HERE is what that passage actually SAYS..

Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

It SAYS that God has been our dwelling place in all generations before the mountains.......
THEN it says that He turns man to destruction...it does NOT say that He does this PRIOR to mans choice to sin....YOU are adding that conclusion INTO the actual text there.

 

[Benoni]

You said “The ONLY scriptures youve presented have been horribly mangled by youâ€Â; well seeing I cut and pasted this scripture which you claimed I mangled that would be impossible I mangled it.
If anything you are ignoring what this verse declares; you posted seven verses that says the same thing and you ignored their content too.

Im ignoring your perversion of the intent and your ADDITIONS to what is actually STATED in those verses.
NONE of which STATES that God subjected creation to anything PRIOR to Adams sin.

I have also posted at least four other translations which you ignore plus

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Im sorry...THIS thread is about GOD CAUSING the fall.
WHERE again does that SAY that 'God CAUSED ADAM to choose to sin ? ;)
HERE is what that passage actually SAYS..
[quote:1xeflv2i]
Psa 90:1 A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

It SAYS that God has been our dwelling place in all generations before the mountains.......
THEN it says that He turns man to destruction...it does NOT say that He does this PRIOR to mans choice to sin....YOU are adding that conclusion INTO the actual text there.[/quote:1xeflv2i]


HOGWASH...

Romans 8:20 declares it was not Adam's choice, it was God who took the blaime. Show me one verse that declares Adam has a freechoice, freewill, or choice to sin. You have nothing to back up your non bblical point when it comes to Adam or all of God's people. NOTHING.... You KEEP ignoring God's Word and keep replacing God's Word with your bias opinion; you do not quoting nothing but you religious perconceived un derstanding.

 

[follower of Christ]

Forget Romans 8:20 because according to you it was “Adam’s choice†not “Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curseâ€Â.

Lets forget Romans 8:20 because Im not about to let that twisted bible version ADD to what is actually STATED in Romans 8:20. ;)

You are trying to tell me little earthy Adam can choose something that effected all of humanity and God had no say in the matter even though Romans 8 declares “For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willinglyâ€Â.

No friend *I* am not telling you it all started with Adam....GODS WORD is telling you that.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Shall we look at a dozen other renderings to see if they agree? ;)
ADAM chose to sin and by ADAMs sin and its punishment has carried to ALL men.

Adam had to fall;

No, Adam CHOSE to sin.
Like us he gave into his lusts instead of calling out to God in that hour of temptation.

no freewill there just doing what He was ordained to do.

Sorry but Adam wasnt 'ordained' to defy God. He chose to do so of his own free will...and THAT is why the punishment was so great...WILLFULLY choosing to defy God.

You are telling me choose disobey even thought Roman 8 declares.

No...what you CLAIM Romans 8:20 declares that it doesnt and Ive shown that it doesnt.
You need to toss whatever bible you are using in the garbage can and get 20 others that DONT pervert the text so badly.

But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

Sorry but you have yet to show that this subjection existed PRIOR to Adams choice to sin.

 

[follower of Christ]

HOGWASH...

Romans 8:20 declares it was not Adam's choice, it was God who took the blaime. Show me one verse that declares Adam has a freechoice, freewill, or choice to sin. You have nothing to back up your non bblical point when it comes to Adam or all of God's people. NOTHING.... You KEEP ignoring God's Word and keep replacing God's Word with your bias opinion; you do not quoting nothing but you religious perconceived un derstanding.

I am ignoring YOUR distorting of Romans 8:20...


Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.

Supporting Evidence

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.

 

[Benoni]

Forget Romans 8:20 because according to you it was “Adam’s choice†not “Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curseâ€Â.

Lets forget Romans 8:20 because Im not about to let that twisted bible version ADD to what is actually STATED in Romans 8:20. ;)

You are trying to tell me little earthy Adam can choose something that effected all of humanity and God had no say in the matter even though Romans 8 declares “For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willinglyâ€Â.

No friend *I* am not telling you it all started with Adam....GODS WORD is telling you that.
[quote:2krfreju]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Shall we look at a dozen other renderings to see if they agree? ;)
ADAM chose to sin and by ADAMs sin and its punishment has carried to ALL men.

Adam had to fall;

No, Adam CHOSE to sin.
Like us he gave into his lusts instead of calling out to God in that hour of temptation.

no freewill there just doing what He was ordained to do.

Sorry but Adam wasnt 'ordained' to defy God. He chose to do so of his own free will...and THAT is why the punishment was so great...WILLFULLY choosing to defy God.

You are telling me choose disobey even thought Roman 8 declares.

No...what you CLAIM Romans 8:20 declares that it doesnt and Ive shown that it doesnt.
You need to toss whatever bible you are using in the garbage can and get 20 others that DONT pervert the text so badly.

But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

Sorry but you have yet to show that this subjection existed PRIOR to Adams choice to sin.[/quote:2krfreju]

You say I twist, I quote God's Word.

I say you twist and you do not quote any of God's Word.

Your religion has blinded you.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes you have quoted: James 1:13-15 three or four times and every time I have explained to you this is true; but has nothing to do with Adam’s fall; and has everything to do with our sins now.

:D
And *I* have explained that Romans 8:20 does NOT state that GOD is the one subjecting...SOME real scholars say it is SATAN who is doing the subjecting there, not God...SOME say otherwise...so AGAIN this ONE verse that you keep ripping out of context CANNOT be used to base doctrine on.
Can I ask if you have even READ the WHOLE chapter there, friend ?
Or is this a 'one versin it' doctrine that your following ?

The curse happened because God ordained it.

Sorry but the curse happened because Adam CHOSE to follow his own lusts into sin...

The reason we sin today is because that is the way God created us.

And HERE we have the true nature of this fallacy....."GOD made me do it"
READERS SEE >>>Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"

So when I sin; I am a slave to sin, I cannot help it; I do not blame God for my sin; I praise him because of the cross of Jesus that He has reverse the curse.

GOD does not cause you to sin

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

It was Satan who tempted Adam who was ordained by God cause the sin, the and Jesus who was tempted by Satan who was ordain to overcome sin; with out a sinner there is no reason for a savior; GOD does not want innocent puppets on a string or a servants; God desires overcoming sons.

God did not ordain Adam to sin, nor Satan to fall from heaven.
BOTH of those were the result of free will to choose.

James 1:13 never speaks of man having a freewill or choice[/b]; it speaks of temptation; Satan does the temptation; but Satan has no power unless God directs or totally controls that power; I have already posted this pertaining to Job who God inquired Satan about.

OH please...you really need to find a better line than this nonsense.
You keep acting like if the PHRASE 'free will' isnt IN the text that freedom to choose doesnt exist. That is VERY poor study method, friend.
James puts the BLAME for sin where it BELONGS...in the SINNERS lap, not GODS...

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

You have no Bible verses that show man has a freewill or choice; then you spin the verses that declare to the contrary.

MAN, not God, is the source of his own sin.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

All are tempted by Satan, Satan is a tool in the HANDS of a all soverign GOD.

Men are tempted by their OWN lusts firstly. Lets stop blaming satan for OUR desire to do wrong.
Secondly show me SCRIPTURE that SAYS that Satan is a 'tool in the HANDS of God'.
Are you Jewish ?

Yes God said it was good; BUT as I said before just because it was good does not mean God wants it to be awesome. God want manifested sons not naïve innocent servants; this is why we are here, to maturity spiritually; not religiously.

Man did not need for God to supposedly play a twisted game with him to mature spiritually.
MAN chose to sin, GOD punished man for that sin...end of story...

 

[follower of Christ]

You say I twist, I quote God's Word.

youve quoted a perverse, BIASED version of Romans 8:20 about 15 times now. A version that DOESNT say what the Greek nor any other version I can find says.
READERS SEE >>>Romans 8:20<<< for the ACTUAL text...

I say you twist and you do not quote any of God's Word.

READ my posts again friend....heck read YOUR posts again...you JUST SAID that *I* posted scripture from James a couple posts back !! :D

Your religion has blinded you.

Your twisted bible version has blinded you....

 

[follower of Christ]

Well, I guess I know how my Sunday will be spent. :D
Benoni and Bubba are both here this morning

 

[follower of Christ]

READERS take note....

Ive said a few times that Romans 8:20 doesnt actually SAY who is doing the 'subjecting'...God or Satan.

Here are two real bible scholars I wanted to post quickly to show what Im talking about.
Gill says that it is the devil who subjected them.

"Though they were willingly vain, yet they were not willingly made subject to vanity; they willingly went into idolatrous and other evil practices, but the devil made them subject, or slaves unto them;
John Gill

Albert Barnes seems to think that God subjected...

" It is the appointment of God, who has chosen to place his people in this condition;
Albert Barnes

Which man is right ? The verse itself DOESNT actually specify and if men who devoted their lives to Gods word are confused about I doubt any of us here are qualified to make the call either.

And once more the passage does NOT make any claims about this subjection existing PRIOR to Adams choice to sin against God.
It makes NO sense at all that while GOD called creation 'GOOD' that HE had subjected it to CORRUPTION at the SAME TIME !

 

[Benoni]

You say I twist, I quote God's Word.

youve quoted a perverse, BIASED version of Romans 8:20 about 15 times now. A version that DOESNT say what the Greek nor any other version I can find says.

I say you twist and you do not quote any of God's Word.

READ my posts again friend....heck read YOUR posts again...you JUST SAID that *I* posted scripture from James a couple posts back !! :D
[quote:s7wf9taj]
Your religion has blinded you.

Your twisted bible version has blinded you....[/quote:s7wf9taj]

Go ahead, call it perverse, call it bias....; why? Because they do not fit your preconceived bias; what other reason do you have.

Yes you quoted James, James says we are all tempted; we are all tempted by Satan who is a tool in a all soverign God.... PRAISE God for temptation; temptation is as much a part of God' plan for the ages as sin, as salvation, as good an evil.

You are not opened to the truth of God's Word unless it fits your broken cistern.

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can
hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new†scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.


If what I post are so twisted then where are these awesome verses to counter what I am posting directly from God's Word. All I see is a feeble attempt for you to twist by your opinion; never do you give me anything but your religious thought and a few verse that have nothing to say about what we are debating.

Look at your post. You are not quoting God’s Word you are quoting yourself and You really expect me to believe your opinion and disregard God’s Word because you do not agree with what is said in its content.

 

[Benoni]

Well, I guess I know how my Sunday will be spent. :D
Benoni and Bubba are both here this morning

I do not believe in religion; which is off the subject. Religion is Baby lon; babylon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord; but is not his church. This is your problem; your religion is your god.