Did God Cause the Fall?

[Bubba]

Yet Scripture says in respect to Satan:
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44).
And I wrote:
“People like you, say this cannot possibly be true because stated in the creation story all was created good. All was good in the beginning in respect to God’s economy and plan, where even the evil tool of Satan, would be used to cause mankind to mature, appreciate and grow in knowledge of God. In Isaiah 45:7 we have Scripture say, “Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things†(Young’s literal translation), how was God preparing evil? This is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis with the verse 2:17 for evil (tree of good and evil) that God created. That was created by God in the beginning (evil), while you insist that Satan could not be created evil, because all was created good. The verse actually states, “And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.†(YLT) All God created was very good in respect to His purposes.â€Â
And Follower choice to not even address what I wrote, but for those who are interested I include an article by J. Preston Eby.

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/ ... rpent.html

 

[follower of Christ]

Go ahead, call it perverse, call it bias....; why? Because they do not fit your preconceived bias; what other reason do you have.

I call it that because it ADDS to what the text SAYS.
READERS SEE >>>Romans 8:20<<< for the ACTUAL text...

Yes you quoted James, James says we are all tempted; we are all tempted by Satan who is a tool in a all soverign God.... PRAISE God for temptation; temptation is as much a part of God' plan for the ages as sin, as salvation, as good an evil.

Round and round we go....
James PROVES that MAN makes his OWN choice to run into sin...GOD does not lead us there.

You are not opened to the truth of God's Word unless it fits your broken cistern.

I am not open to every perverse wind of doctrine that comes along, no...I am not.
When you can PROVE your views, give me a ring.

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box;

Heck dude, you wont even accept what it DOES say in favor of your twisted bible version that ADDS and distorts and says thing that it DOESNT say. :bigfrown

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can
hold no water.

THERE ya go....the PEOPLE have committed the evil...NOT God.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right.

Yes he did have it right...the PEOPLE committed evil, not God...

If what I post are so twisted then where are these awesome verses to counter what I am posting directly from God's Word.

Oh geez....

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

nuff said...

All I see is a feeble attempt for you to twist by your opinion; never do you give me anything but your religious thought and a few verse that have nothing to say about what we are debating.

We have yet to actually see you show a single passage that SAYS what YOU claim it says....other than this twisted bible translation you use that doesnt agree with the Greek or 20 other translations.

Look at your post. You are not quoting God’s Word you are quoting yourself

Yeah....*I* wrote this

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

and You really expect me to believe your opinion and disregard God’s Word because you do not agree with what is said in its content.

Im sorry.
Did I make you feel like I expect you to believe me ?
I have no such intent or expectations.
My only goal in these sorts of threads is to expose the error for my brethren to see so they do not fall for the nonsense.
Sorry if I misled you in any way.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yet Scripture says in respect to Satan:
"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44).

"From the beginning" indicates ONLY a time frame. It does NOT say that GOD CREATED him to be this way.
AGAIN YOU are ADDING to what it ACTUALLY STATED

Looking at 10,000 years of time, or whatever, the first 100 years of that would BE "the beginning".
You are REALLY stretching the INTENT of what these passages SAY.

“People like you, say this cannot possibly be true because stated in the creation story all was created good. All was good in the beginning in respect to God’s economy and plan, where even the evil tool of Satan, would be used to cause mankind to mature, appreciate and grow in knowledge of God. In Isaiah 45:7 we have Scripture say, “Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things†(Young’s literal translation), how was God preparing evil? This is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis with the verse 2:17 for evil (tree of good and evil) that God created. That was created by God in the beginning (evil), while you insist that Satan could not be created evil, because all was created good. The verse actually states, “And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.†(YLT) All God created was very good in respect to His purposes.â€Â

uh..yeah
God cannot call something 'good' while it was 'corrupt'.

And Follower choice to not even address what I wrote,

Sometimes I miss something, sometimes I dont find it relevant enough to waste my time with.
Anyone who KNOWS me KNOWS that I do NOT ignore anything...so lets not even try to play this game.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
We miss the feast, to settle for the crumbs. To know that God as "all in all", that is the feast.

"As one has written, "God is constructing a temple, made of living stones, through which to manifest Himself throughout the ages to come, hallelujah, and Satan was created (a sinner from the beginning) as a chisel and hammer to be used in the construction of this building. The living stones that are even now being placed in this temple have been chosen, says the Lord, in the "furnace of affliction" (Isa. 48:10). God, however, is mercy; God is love; God is compassion. He is a healer, not a destroyer. It was, nonetheless, necessary that an oven be heated in which to purify the gold - a furnace in which the wood, hay, and stubble were to be burned - but God, in His nature of love, could not perform the necessary affliction. It was for this reason that He created AN INSTRUMENT that was capable of performing this essential action in the lives of men, for in Satan God literally created a chastening rod." Eby.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
We miss the feast, to settle for the crumbs. To know that God as "all in all", that is the feast.

His being 'all in all' does NOT indicate that He CAUSED man to fall.

 

[Benoni]

Round and round we go....
James PROVES that MAN makes his OWN choice to run into sin...GOD does not lead us there.

Yes I agree man makes his own choice to sin. We are all sinners and come short of the glory of God; but it still was not Adam who chooses to fall; it was God who choice man to fall and Adam had no choice. (Romans 8:20)

We carnal human being are dead and cannot choose our own salvation that is where you are confused. Yes we have a freewill to sin, you assume we have a freewill to save our self; we do NOT. It takes God’s drawing us; quicken us our of our dead carnal state; then and then do we have the ability or faith in God. Eph.2

 

[Benoni]

Go ahead, call it perverse, call it bias....; why? Because they do not fit your preconceived bias; what other reason do you have.

I call it that because it ADDS to what the text SAYS.
READERS SEE >>>Romans 8:20<<< for the ACTUAL text...

Yes you quoted James, James says we are all tempted; we are all tempted by Satan who is a tool in a all soverign God.... PRAISE God for temptation; temptation is as much a part of God' plan for the ages as sin, as salvation, as good an evil.

Round and round we go....
James PROVES that MAN makes his OWN choice to run into sin...GOD does not lead us there.
[quote:3usd7ib4]You are not opened to the truth of God's Word unless it fits your broken cistern.

I am not open to every perverse wind of doctrine that comes along, no...I am not.
When you can PROVE your views, give me a ring.

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box;

Heck dude, you wont even accept what it DOES say in favor of your twisted bible version that ADDS and distorts and says thing that it DOESNT say. :bigfrown

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can
hold no water.

THERE ya go....the PEOPLE have committed the evil...NOT God.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right.

Yes he did have it right...the PEOPLE committed evil, not God...

If what I post are so twisted then where are these awesome verses to counter what I am posting directly from God's Word.

Oh geez....

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

nuff said...

All I see is a feeble attempt for you to twist by your opinion; never do you give me anything but your religious thought and a few verse that have nothing to say about what we are debating.

We have yet to actually see you show a single passage that SAYS what YOU claim it says....other than this twisted bible translation you use that doesnt agree with the Greek or 20 other translations.

Look at your post. You are not quoting God’s Word you are quoting yourself

Yeah....*I* wrote this

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

and You really expect me to believe your opinion and disregard God’s Word because you do not agree with what is said in its content.

Im sorry.
Did I make you feel like I expect you to believe me ?
I have no such intent or expectations.
My only goal in these sorts of threads is to expose the error for my brethren to see so they do not fall for the nonsense.
Sorry if I misled you in any way.[/quote:3usd7ib4]

Where is God's Word in all this opinion????

 

[Benoni]

[
"From the beginning" indicates ONLY a time frame. It does NOT say that GOD CREATED him to be this way.

It does to say God created him that way.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes I agree man makes his own choice to sin. We are all sinners and come short of the glory of God; but it still was not Adam who chooses to fall; it was God who choice man to fall and Adam had no choice.

Adam sinned but only because God made him do it....
Sorry friend but when God hardened Pharoahs heart the scripture SAYS THAT GOD DID...God doesnt need to hide the fact.
In NO way does scripture SAY that Adams CHOICE to sin was anything but ADAMS.

(Romans 8:20)

Not relevant.
You have YET to PROVE that Adam was subjected PRIOR to his choice to sin.

Yes we have a freewill to sin,

man, you contradict your own views so horribly...and I wonder if you even recognize that fact.
*IF* being a slave to sin means we can do NOTHING BUT sin then no, we would NOT have free will TO sin...sin would be the ONLY choice we HAVE. NO choice, NO freedom to choose = no FREE will in that matter.
Just like you said, I did not CHOOSE my parents. In THAT matter I had NO FREE will...no CHOICE.
Adam DID have two options...eat the fruit or NOT eat the fruit. He had the FREE will to CHOOSE to sin or not NOT sin.
And when presented with these options Adam, of his own FREE will CHOSE to sin...and THAT is why his offense is so great.
Do you think that eating of the tree was that big an issue in and of itself ? It wasnt.
The big deal was that Adam WILLINGLY CHOSE to DEFY Gods instructions.
And then instead of calling out to God immediately, seeking HIm for forgiveness, Adam instead chose to push the blame onto his wife for HIS CHOICE to do wrong.

you assume we have a freewill to save our self; we do NOT. It takes God’s drawing us; quicken us our of our dead carnal state; then and then do we have the ability or faith in God. Eph.2

STOP putting words into my mouth, friend.
I have SAID that I AGREE with scripture...that NO man comes unless the Father draws.
WHEN the father draws yes we HAVE freedom to obey Him or REJECT Him...just as scripture shows.

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence
[quote:2gy5jmgz]See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

[/quote:2gy5jmgz]

 

[follower of Christ]

Go ahead, call it perverse, call it bias....; why? Because they do not fit your preconceived bias; what other reason do you have.

I call it that because it ADDS to what the text SAYS.
READERS SEE >>>Romans 8:20<<< for the ACTUAL text...

Yes you quoted James, James says we are all tempted; we are all tempted by Satan who is a tool in a all soverign God.... PRAISE God for temptation; temptation is as much a part of God' plan for the ages as sin, as salvation, as good an evil.

Round and round we go....
James PROVES that MAN makes his OWN choice to run into sin...GOD does not lead us there.
[quote:3s6xijzs]You are not opened to the truth of God's Word unless it fits your broken cistern.

I am not open to every perverse wind of doctrine that comes along, no...I am not.
When you can PROVE your views, give me a ring.

[quote:3s6xijzs]I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box;

Heck dude, you wont even accept what it DOES say in favor of your twisted bible version that ADDS and distorts and says thing that it DOESNT say. :bigfrown

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can
hold no water.

THERE ya go....the PEOPLE have committed the evil...NOT God.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right.

Yes he did have it right...the PEOPLE committed evil, not God...

If what I post are so twisted then where are these awesome verses to counter what I am posting directly from God's Word.

Oh geez....

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

nuff said...

All I see is a feeble attempt for you to twist by your opinion; never do you give me anything but your religious thought and a few verse that have nothing to say about what we are debating.

We have yet to actually see you show a single passage that SAYS what YOU claim it says....other than this twisted bible translation you use that doesnt agree with the Greek or 20 other translations.

Look at your post. You are not quoting God’s Word you are quoting yourself

Yeah....*I* wrote this

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

and You really expect me to believe your opinion and disregard God’s Word because you do not agree with what is said in its content.

Im sorry.
Did I make you feel like I expect you to believe me ?
I have no such intent or expectations.
My only goal in these sorts of threads is to expose the error for my brethren to see so they do not fall for the nonsense.
Sorry if I misled you in any way.[/quote:3s6xijzs]

Where is God's Word in all this opinion????[/quote:3s6xijzs]
READERS
Do ya see this ?
In this VERY post that benoni QUOTED was GODS WORD yet he seemingly is blind to it.

 

[follower of Christ]

[
"From the beginning" indicates ONLY a time frame. It does NOT say that GOD CREATED him to be this way.

It does to say God created him that way.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

So again you rip out ANOTHER VERSE entirely out of context to push your fallacy.

Youre starting to sound like one of those guys who would use two passages together to tell men to hang themselves...
This is what happens when we rip things out of context...

And he.... went and hanged himself.
(Matthew 27:5 KJV)

...Then said Jesus... Go, and do thou likewise.
(Luke 10:37 KJV)

 

[Benoni]

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

So again you rip out ANOTHER VERSE entirely out of context to push your fallacy.[/quote][/quote]


You always got an logical excuse to attack God's Word but only with opinion.

 

[follower of Christ]

You always got an logical excuse to attack God's Word but only with opinion.

benoni, no offense but your posts are becoming pathetic.
THIS is not my opinion. It is GODS WORD that apparently YOU cannot accept.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

 

[Bubba]

You always got an logical excuse to attack God's Word but only with opinion.

benoni, no offense but your posts are becoming pathetic.
THIS is not my opinion. It is GODS WORD that apparently YOU cannot accept.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

Follower, I do not always believe what Calvin wrote, but I do in regrds to this James passage:

"James 1:13, Let no man, when he is tempted. Here, no doubt, he speaks of another kind of temptation. It is abundantly evident that the external temptations, hitherto mentioned, are sent to us by God. In this way God tempted Abraham, (Genesis 22:1,) and daily tempts us, that is, he tries us as to what are we by laying before us an occasion by which our hearts are made known. But to draw out what is hid in our hearts is a far different thing from inwardly alluring our hearts by wicked lusts.
He then treats here of inward temptations which are nothing else than the inordinate desires which entice to sin. He justly denies that God is the author of these, because they flow from the corruption of our nature.
This warning is very necessary, for nothing is more common among men than to transfer to another the blame of the evils they commit; and they then especially seem to free themselves, when they ascribe it to God himself. This kind of evasion we constantly imitate, delivered down to us as it is from the first man. For this reason James calls us to confess our own guilt, and not to implicate God, as though he compelled us to sin.
But the whole doctrine of scripture seems to be inconsistent with this passage; for it teaches us that men are blinded by God, are given up to a reprobate mind, and delivered over to filthy and shameful lusts. To this I answer, that probably James was induced to deny that we are tempted by God by this reason, because the ungodly, in order to form an excuse, armed themselves with testimonies of Scripture. But there are two things to be noticed here: when Scripture ascribes blindness or hardness of heart to God, it does not assign to him the beginning of this blindness, nor does it make him the author of sin, so as to ascribe to him the blame: and on these two things only does James dwell."

 

[Benoni]

You always got an logical excuse to attack God's Word but only with opinion.

benoni, no offense but your posts are becoming pathetic.
THIS is not my opinion. It is GODS WORD that apparently YOU cannot accept.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

That is all you have.

Satan tempted Jesus and Adam. Satan has NO, NO, NO power nless God ordains it. This has nothing to do with Adam having a choice; this has to do with temptation which comes from the accuser/Satan

 

[Benoni]

Yes we have a freewill to sin,

man, you contradict your own views so horribly...and I wonder if you even recognize that fact.
*IF* being a slave to sin means we can do NOTHING BUT sin then no, we would NOT have free will TO sin...sin would be the ONLY choice we HAVE. NO choice, NO freedom to choose = no FREE will in that matter.
Just like you said, I did not CHOOSE my parents. In THAT matter I had NO FREE will...no CHOICE.
Adam DID have two options...eat the fruit or NOT eat the fruit. He had the FREE will to CHOOSE to sin or not NOT sin.
And when presented with these options Adam, of his own FREE will CHOSE to sin...and THAT is why his offense is so great.
Do you think that eating of the tree was that big an issue in and of itself ? It wasnt.
The big deal was that Adam WILLINGLY CHOSE to DEFY Gods instructions.
And then instead of calling out to God immediately, seeking HIm for forgiveness, Adam instead chose to push the blame onto his wife for HIS CHOICE to do wrong

And how does this contradict the view I have always have. Man is a sinner, man sins, man has no choice but to sin; because of the curse God has given all of us. MY view has always been man has no freewill to save himself’ and Adam did not choose to fall it was God’s will Adam would fall. Sure God used Adam’s innocence, sure God used Satan who was created to be a liar and a murderer and a waster; BUT it was God not little Adam who has no power on his own.

It is this religious man made view that little innocent Adam can make a choice that affected the lives of all of us and God had no power or ability to stop it. If something happens to God's creation it is God who controls all things good and evil not little Adam. It is God who calls men to salvation not our freewill or choice that is not only unscriptural but impossible.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower, I do not always believe what Calvin wrote, but I do in regrds to this James passage:

You believe Calvin there BECAUSE he agrees with what YOU want to believe.
God does NOT lead men into sin or tempt them to sin.
God did NOT cause the fall of Adam/man

We done here?

 

[follower of Christ]

And how does this contradict the view I have always have. Man is a sinner, man sins, man has no choice but to sin; because of the curse God has given all of us.

Man sins because he has no choice. :crazy
*IF* he has no choice then whomever is CAUSING him to sin is the one sinning thru him.
(are you sure this isnt beloved57 ?)
Adam HAD choice, friend, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

MY view has always been man has no freewill to save himself’ and Adam did not choose to fall it was God’s will Adam would fall.

And here we go with that deflection again.
BECAUSE Adam sinned, and that has caused the ENTIRE race to be separated from God, we ARE separated from Him and NOTHING we do can earn us salvation nor can we come to Him without His firstly drawing us.
again..

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Adams sin had that much power BECAUSE HIS punishment was passed TO all men..
ADAM CHOSE to sin, just as WE CHOOSE to sin and because of that sin we are condemned as a race.

Sure God used Adam’s innocence, sure God used Satan who was created to be a liar and a murderer and a waster;

There ya go again ADDING to what scripture says.
NOTHING says that God CREATED the being now called 'satan' to rebel against Gods will
Again, ARE you Jewish ?

BUT it was God not little Adam who has no power on his own.

Please.
ANY man has the POWER to CHOOSE to DISOBEY.
Stop playing this game like it was some amazing feat to DISOBEY and eat that fruit. It wasnt.
Any monkey could have done as much.
All it takes is letting OUR will cause us to do what we know is wrong.
again..

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Adams sin had that much power BECAUSE HIS punishment was passed TO all men..
ADAM CHOSE to sin, just as WE CHOOSE to sin and because of that sin we are condemned as a race.

Adams sin had that much power BECAUSE HIS punishment was passed TO all men..
[quote:3ohyzv3s] It is this religious man made view that little innocent Adam can make a choice that affected the lives of all of us and God had no power or ability to stop it.

[/quote:3ohyzv3s]
This is such a pathetic attempt at child psychology. Please dont waste your time and mine by trying it again.
Adam was given FREE WILL BY GOD to CHOOSE and USED that freedom to CHOOSE to disobey.
Simple as that.
again..

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Adams sin had that much power BECAUSE HIS punishment was passed TO all men..
ADAM CHOSE to sin, just as WE CHOOSE to sin and because of that sin we are condemned as a race.

and God had no power or ability to stop it.

lets quit being obscenely absurd here.
God can STOP anything God WANTS to stop.
But God gave MAN FREE WILL and for the most part DOESNT infringe upon that FREE WILL.
That is the POINT of mans creation. A being WITH FREE WiLL who can CHOOSE to love, follow and obey his Creator or CHOOSE NOT TO.

Your unscriptural fallacy literally destroys the entire premises of creation...it tears away the ENTIRE purpose of man being created.
*IF* God wanted brain dead meat puppets He could have created the mindless automatons you folks must believe we are.

Are we done here ?

 

[Benoni]

Follower, I do not always believe what Calvin wrote, but I do in regrds to this James passage:

You believe Calvin there BECAUSE he agrees with what YOU want to believe.
God does NOT lead men into sin or tempt them to sin.
God did NOT cause the fall of Adam/man

We done here?

Stop giving me you opinion and give me God' Word. I do not care about Calvin, nor do I care about your opinion. You keep dismissing God's Word like you are the finally authority; you’re not. It does not work the way you want it; you cannot twist, and spin God's Word to the way you see it because you do not agree what it is saying, you must change your thinking to what God's Word declares not the other way around. How many verses do you need spin before you figure out you are totally wrong. The Bible says to repent; that means change your mind.

No God changes men; that is why God not little Adam casued the fall. Satan a tool of God's leads men to sin. Satan tempts men; God is soverign over all things to include men, satan and fallen messengers.

If God did not casue the fall show me in God's Word not your little opinion; Romans 8:20 you dismiss and replace it with your littlr opinion; show me in God's Word if this is true.

If freewill was God's plan he would of written in God's Word just like Romans 8 declares God not little Adam caused the fall; but seeing it is no part of God's plan God never put it in God's Word. But you are tryinh to force it in God's Word because your false doctines of damntions make no sense with out man having a freewill.

 

[Benoni]

Man sins because he has no choice.
*IF* he has no choice then whomever is CAUSING him to sin is the one sinning thru him.
(are you sure this isnt beloved57 ?)
Adam HAD choice, friend, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

I have proven it; here is the verse you reject. Here is GOD'S WORD YOU REJECT>>>>>

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

But instead of showing me a verse to counter this valid verse, you spin the verse, ignore the verse; tell the verse does not mean what it says by your words not God's Word; BUT you never use God's Word to show me why this verse is wrong.

All you care about is your carnal reasoning and religion which has nothing to do with the truth of the Bible..