Did God create hell?

[Free]

Worm is written in the bible, so to say we can discern this word with our own understanding is wrong.

Just because it's a word that is written in the Bible? As I said before, God has given us minds that can reason and he expects us to do so, even when reading the Bible. There is much we can understand from the Bible simply by reading it.

So, again, I suggest that we look to Isa 66:24, the very passage Luke quotes, and see that 'worm' is simply a reference to the worms that feed on the dead:

Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

It's not false to say torment is torment, what are you talking about? Torment is what it is no matter the degree of punishment.

As I have clearly stated, saying that "torment is torment" is misleading because there is more then one meaning of the word. Jesus seems to suggest in Luke that there are degrees of physical punishment, that there isn't some torture that goes on for eternity as most people believe.

Scripture that relates hell to the center of the earth is on google.

I want Scripture from the Bible that you have, not what's on Google.

Lastly, Mark 9:48 doesn't say their worm that eventually dies and the fire that is eventually quenched. No, rather the opposite.

I have never said otherwise.

 

[Guest]

Just because it's a word that is written in the Bible?

Not just a word, but God's Word that is spoken and written through the Holy Spirit. Free, the debate is done. There's nothing else to go on. Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

Where did Hell come from? Did God create it? Did the devil create it? Has it come into existence as a result of disobedience?

The bible talks about hell but at the moment, I can't see anything that describes where it actually came from

I hope you've had a chance to examine my post for the word "Abyss" and the references that can be found there?

It starts with Luke 8:31 where we look at the words translated "the deep" and continues to the Reveling made by Jesus to John while on the isle of Patmos: BlueLetterBible Beta for 'Abyss'

 

[westtexas]

Can you show me where God promises eternal life to unbelievers?

Sparrow, I thought I'd let this thread rest a little before we resurrected it. Let me start with a few verses from scripture that suggest , at least to me, that the unbeliever does not simply cease to exist.

God does NOT promise eternal life to unbelievers. But what is eternal life? Scripture says it is "John 17:3- And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)"
And who receives this eternal life? John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."
But are they dead? Paul told the church at Ephesus "Eph. 2:1,-and you he hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Eph. 2:5-even when we were dead in sins..." . These people were dead in their sins-but very much alive.

Lastly,I'd like to follow these verses with Matt. 25:46 which uses the same word for both the length of our eternal life and the length of the punishment of the wicked.
Thoughts?

 

[Grappler]

Sparrow, I thought I'd let this thread rest a little before we resurrected it. Let me start with a few verses from scripture that suggest , at least to me, that the unbeliever does not simply cease to exist.

God does NOT promise eternal life to unbelievers. But what is eternal life? Scripture says it is "John 17:3- And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)"
And who receives this eternal life? John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."
But are they dead? Paul told the church at Ephesus "Eph. 2:1,-and you he hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Eph. 2:5-even when we were dead in sins..." . These people were dead in their sins-but very much alive.

Lastly,I'd like to follow these verses with Matt. 25:46 which uses the same word for both the length of our eternal life and the length of the punishment of the wicked.
Thoughts?

Sir...this is what is going to happen to the unrighteous. They are going to be resurrected unto judgement and then they are going to be cast into a lake of fire and cease to exsist. It is called the second death in the book of Revelation. Yes i think some will suffer more according to the evil that they have done but they will not be given eternal life...if you read John 3:16 you will discover that only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. Jesus said do not fear them who can kill the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul. I understand destroy to mean to make something cease from being. God teaches his children to love their enemies and then he is going to turn around and horribly torture them forever and ever and ever???lol

 

[Guest]

Sir...this is what is going to happen to the unrighteous. They are going to be resurrected unto judgement and then they are going to be cast into a lake of fire and cease to exsist. It is called the second death in the book of Revelation. Yes i think some will suffer more according to the evil that they have done but they will not be given eternal life...if you read John 3:16 you will discover that only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. Jesus said do not fear them who can kill the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul. I understand destroy to mean to make something cease from being. God teaches his children to love their enemies and then he is going to turn around and horribly torture them forever and ever and ever???lol

Thank you for enlightening us, but hell is eternal damnation not eternal life. Destroy and cease to exist are two different things. The IRS can destroy your life if you stop paying taxes. That doesn't mean you cease to exist in jail, rather you're rotting in jail. Their worm that dieth not and the fire that is not quenched. God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves to hell by their unbelief in who Jesus Christ is.

 

[P31Woman]

Sparrow, I thought I'd let this thread rest a little before we resurrected it. Let me start with a few verses from scripture that suggest , at least to me, that the unbeliever does not simply cease to exist.

God does NOT promise eternal life to unbelievers. But what is eternal life? Scripture says it is "John 17:3- And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)"
And who receives this eternal life? John 5:24 says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."
But are they dead? Paul told the church at Ephesus "Eph. 2:1,-and you he hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Eph. 2:5-even when we were dead in sins..." . These people were dead in their sins-but very much alive.

Lastly,I'd like to follow these verses with Matt. 25:46 which uses the same word for both the length of our eternal life and the length of the punishment of the wicked.
Thoughts?

I appreciate this post.

 

[Grappler]

Thank you for enlightening us, but hell is eternal damnation not eternal life. Destroy and cease to exist are two different things. The IRS can destroy your life if you stop paying taxes. That doesn't mean you cease to exist in jail, rather you're rotting in jail. Their worm that dieth not and the fire that is not quenched. God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves to hell by their unbelief in who Jesus Christ is.

Oh...i was talking to westtexas but you are welcome. Torture someone for eternity sounds like something the god of this world would do...not my God. Boy...you sure are eager for people to be given eternal life in unbelievable agony lol....i am sure glad you are not God.

 

[westtexas]

Jesus said do not fear them who can kill the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul. I understand destroy to mean to make something cease from being.

Your statement is not necessarily true in the Greek language or in English. The verse you have quoted is Matt. 10:28 "......destroy both soul and body in hell." And in Greek "......kai psychen kai soma apolesai en genne."

W.E.Vine gives the following definition for "apollumi-destroy"
apollumi, a strenghtened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly", in middle voice "to perish". The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well being. (Vines Complete Expository Dictionary pg. 164)

Let's look at another verse. Luke 5:37 says "......and the wineskins will be destroyed" And in Greek ".....kai hoi askoi apolountai". Let me make a point in the English language and I'll tie all this together. A few years ago I was in a bad motorcycle accident and my bike was destroyed. All 3 examples we have been discussing have been destroyed. But did any of them cease to exist? Or were they simply ruined and useless as W.E. Vine says.

The wineskins in Luke 5:37 were still wineskins-simply useless ones.
My bike was still a motorcycle-simply a useless one.
And the souls in Matt.10:28 were still souls-simply useless ones.
But all have been destroyed.

 

[P31Woman]

Along the same lines John MacArthur says,

It should be made clear that destroy does not here mean annihilation. The lost will not cease to exist, but in their resurrected bodies “will go away into eternal punishment,” just as the saved in their resurrected bodies will go into “eternal life” (Matt. 25:46). The word behind destroy (appolumi) does not convey the notion of extinction but of great loss or ruin. Paul uses the same term in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where he speaks of “eternal destruction”-a phrase that would not make sense if “destruction” meant annihilation, which by definition cannot be eternal. That which is annihilated ceases to exist.

 

[Guest]

Torture someone for eternity sounds like something the god of this world would do...not my God. Boy...you sure are eager for people to be given eternal life in unbelievable agony

I already told you that God doesn't send people to hell, how convenient for you to ignore that. A born again christian that preaches scripture that only suites him? dodge and reflect i guess.

 

[Grappler]

Your statement is not necessarily true in the Greek language or in English. The verse you have quoted is Matt. 10:28 "......destroy both soul and body in hell." And in Greek "......kai psychen kai soma apolesai en genne."

W.E.Vine gives the following definition for "apollumi-destroy"
apollumi, a strenghtened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly", in middle voice "to perish". The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well being. (Vines Complete Expository Dictionary pg. 164)

Let's look at another verse. Luke 5:37 says "......and the wineskins will be destroyed" And in Greek ".....kai hoi askoi apolountai". Let me make a point in the English language and I'll tie all this together. A few years ago I was in a bad motorcycle accident and my bike was destroyed. All 3 examples we have been discussing have been destroyed. But did any of them cease to exist? Or were they simply ruined and useless as W.E. Vine says.

The wineskins in Luke 5:37 were still wineskins-simply useless ones.
My bike was still a motorcycle-simply a useless one.
And the souls in Matt.10:28 were still souls-simply useless ones.
But all have been destroyed.

Here is the ESV translation of Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Maybe in your world to destroy both body and soul somehow means to be given eternal life but it does not in mine. Ever hear of the "second death"? You can find it in Revelation in reference to what happens to the unrighteous dead. I guess to die the second death means to live eternally to you in torment?? Oh and please...stop with the Greek i don't read or speak Greek and i am not impressed....the translators of the ESV that i like to use probably know Greek much better than you.

 

[Grappler]

I already told you that God doesn't send people to hell, how convenient for you to ignore that. A born again christian that preaches scripture that only suites him?. dodge and reflect i guess.

Are you not aware that my God is omnipotent? omniscient? Almighty? Most High? Are you not aware that Almighty God has the ability to make those suffering in unbelievable agony in your eternal Hell to simply cease to exsist?? Are you not aware that my God is merciful and compassionate? Are you not aware that my God wants me to forgive my enemies?....then He turns around and allows them to be tortured in unbelievable agony (go touch a red hot stove eye) not for a day but for eternity? After a trillion years of screaming for mercy...God says no you need some more??

 

[Grappler]

Along the same lines John MacArthur says,

It should be made clear that destroy does not here mean annihilation. The lost will not cease to exist, but in their resurrected bodies “will go away into eternal punishment,” just as the saved in their resurrected bodies will go into “eternal life” (Matt. 25:46). The word behind destroy (appolumi) does not convey the notion of extinction but of great loss or ruin. Paul uses the same term in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where he speaks of “eternal destruction”-a phrase that would not make sense if “destruction” meant annihilation, which by definition cannot be eternal. That which is annihilated ceases to exist.

LOL...you people sure are eager for them to burn alive forever. Burn 'em all!!!

 

[westtexas]

Here is the ESV translation of Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Maybe in your world to destroy both body and soul somehow means to be given eternal life but it does not in mine. Ever hear of the "second death"? You can find it in Revelation in reference to what happens to the unrighteous dead. I guess to die the second death means to live eternally to you in torment?? Oh and please...stop with the Greek i don't read or speak Greek and i am not impressed....the translators of the ESV that i like to use probably know Greek much better than you.

The translators of the ESV that you use have done fine. I like the KJV but the ESV is good. They both use the word "destroy". It is YOUR understanding of this word (apollumi-destroy)that is off. I want to point you back to W.E.Vines definition in my post (who I'm sure knows Greek much better than you or I) Apollumi- to DESTROY- THE IDEA IS NOT EXTINCTION, BUT RUIN, LOSS, NOT OF BEING, BUT OF WELL BEING.

 

[Guest]

Are you not aware that my God is omnipotent? omniscient? Almighty? Most High? Are you not aware that Almighty God has the ability to make those suffering in unbelievable agony in your eternal Hell to simply cease to exsist?? Are you not aware that my God is merciful and compassionate? Are you not aware that my God wants me to forgive my enemies?....then He turns around and allows them to be tortured in unbelievable agony.

Forgiveness from God and forgiveness from man are not the same brother. We can forgive sinners but God is the one that cleanses their sins. What good is it to forgive them if they don't know about salvation through Jesus Christ? Instead of telling me that God would never create a hell, you should use your time wisely and tell me about how to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[P31Woman]

LOL...you people sure are eager for them to burn alive forever. Burn 'em all!!!

If you don't have the ability to back up your beliefs that's OK. Attacking posters to try and cover for that lack of knowledge/ability is not.

 

[Grappler]

The translators of the ESV that you use have done fine. I like the KJV but the ESV is good. They both use the word "destroy". It is YOUR understanding of this word (apollumi-destroy)that is off. I want to point you back to W.E.Vines definition in my post (who I'm sure knows Greek much better than you or I) Apollumi- to DESTROY- THE IDEA IS NOT EXTINCTION, BUT RUIN, LOSS, NOT OF BEING, BUT OF WELL BEING.

Well ofcourse he knows Greek better than me...as i stated earlier i don't know Greek.lol Read John 3:16, argueably the most popular verse in scripture, when you read it you will see that only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. Look you can argue all you like it and we can go round and round about this and other verses but anyone that is intellectually honest knows that this subject is one of those "grey" areas of scripture. There is enough scripture to support that the unrighteous are not given eternal life for me to be satisfied that God would not torture a soul for eternity...but if you want to believe that a loving God would do such a thing then please go ahead i am not trying to take away your freedom to believe that.

 

[P31Woman]

John 17

3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Matthew 25

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels


46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Grappler]

John 17

3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Matthew 25

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels


46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Good job. Here are a few verses that support my view. John 3:16, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 5:24, Matt. 10:28, Romans 9:22, as well as the the several times that the term 'second death' is used in Revelation. Now which one do you like? It seems some of you would rather believe that God would torment someone for eternity...i don't know...i would hope not....maybe it is more of a 'fear thing'...thats what i think it is for most people ...they have this fear that if they don't believe in some kind of eternal hell that they may be cast into it. Like i have said before this traditional view of the unsaved being roasted for ever and ever with no hope of mercy is a great form of mind-control.