- Jun 21, 2009
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Did God create hell?
- Thread starter Grazer
- Start date
- Jun 21, 2009
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I am giving you scriptural support, I'm even giving you a whole chapter. Study Mark Chapter 9 and Mark 9:48. You need to pray on the Holy Spirit sir. Yes I am certain, I am confirming this through the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of me. Their worm are the sinners! God does not lie, and God HATES sin! God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves to hell by their unbelief in who Jesus Christ is. Faith!
- Jun 21, 2009
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urk, then let me also reply that I admonish you to study the whole bible including the part in Genesis about the Angel positioned to guard the Tree of Life. Let me further urge you to consider how "the worm" was spoken of as a curse, the "cankerworm" that infected trees and prevented fruit of believers from being enjoyed. This "worm" that the Lord spoke of was referenced by David Wilkerson, linked HERE (Copyright © 1999 by World Challenge). I will also thank you for ceasing your accusation toward myself and others about our being "false prophets" as you are encouraged to continue to ponder the truth as revealed to the saints (yourself included).
Cordially,
Sparrowhawke
Cordially,
Sparrowhawke
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Blessings Sparrowhawke.
Ofcourse and that has been my point as well...this is a grey area. There is scripture that can support both views but i think there is more scripture to support my view...not too mention logic and intelligence. To think that a loving God who teaches his children to do good to their enemies and forgive them will then turn around and cast them into an eternal torture chamber with absolutely no hope of mercy or justice being served is completely irrational.
- Jun 21, 2009
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I've begun the course you've spoken of and have read again the Scripture written by the Holy Spirit through the pen of Mark, starting at chapter 9.
This lead me to look at Scriptures that compare "Wicked People" in Nave's Topical Index:
Within the above Scriptures (included here for ease of mouse-hover-reading) are a many that could be studied for their own sake. Psalm 21:9 mentions a fiery oven, where the fire shall consume them. Hosea 7:4 speaks in similar fashion. Ezekiel 22:18 speaks of the "dross of silver" - that which, after the silver has been heated to the melting point, is scooped and cast away, Matthew 3:12 speaks of burning of the chaff, Hosea 13:3 speaks of smoke (where there is smoke, there is fire, right) - but it speaks of smoke out of a chimney, not the fire, but the remainder: smoke. That's nebulous and transient, seen for only a moment as it wisps away.
This concept is re-enforced by references to chaff and wind, by burned branches or dried up plants or ashes or stubble (as in the famous wood, hay and stubble references). Such things bring with them a connotation of impermanence. Now, before we conclude that all such things must be referring to living persons, we also are given reference to them being devoured in the time of His anger, and being destroyed in the Name of the Lord. Isaiah speaks of the time of the wrath of the Lord and the fuel of the fire where no man shall spare his brother (Isa 9:19). In that case, "they" are the fuel, but there is nothing that I've seen that specifically states they are the only fuel.
It seems that there are many "time clues" contained within these references and that it does deserve more attention than I've given the subject. This conclusion supports Free's allegation that these things are not "black and white," not clear but may be seen in part, not fully revealed (yet). 20/20 vision or hindsight will allow more authoritative statements to be made, but as I've previously confessed, I'm not a Prophet who may discern these future events with that same degree of accuracy.
Still, while following your admonition to go to Mark chapter 9, some things do become more clear. For instance, as you've requested, my thought went to overview of the whole chapter.
- “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”
- The Transfiguration on the Mountain with three witnesses
- Jesus Heals a Boy Possessed by an Impure Spirit
- Jesus Predicts His Death a Second Time
- Taking the child in his arms, he said to them, “Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me
- "Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us" (“For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.)
- Causing to Stumble
- Mark 9:48 & Isaiah 66:24
- vs 49, "Everyone will be salted with fire." Other ancient authorities either add or subtract "Every sacrifice will be salted with fire."
- Conclusion: "Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”
- Apr 2, 2003
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How is "worm" a synonym for unbelievers? That makes no sense.
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (ESV)
According to you, this reads: 'where their unbeliever does not die...'.
"Worm" is speaking of the worms that feed on the dead, as seen from the passage from which Mark quoted:
Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (ESV)
- Jun 21, 2009
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Kindly accept my token gift with the Scripture gained by your admonishment, found in Mark 9:41. Also know (and I know you do know) that the Promise given applies to YOU.
There’s a place where the Bible says their god is their belly. The belly can be about corruption, selfishness, death, indulgence; the belly is about the earth. The belly commands that we eat every day. Sometimes the belly commands that we eat too much. It makes us tired, unwilling to pray, unwilling to work. The belly is one of the least honored members of the body.
Yet from out of our bellies shall flow LIVING WATERS. “Out of His belly shall flow rivers of living water” Why the belly? John 7:37-52; 8:12 Now, the Holy Spirit is also fire. Not just water, but also fire; Now these are two things that in Nature do not exist together—one destroys the other. But according to God, these things can coexist.
Fire burns away that which is trash, that which is unclean. Fire purifies. Fire softens. Fire warms. And we need the fire of the Holy Spirit to burn away impurity in our soul, and we need the warmth of the Holy Spirit to encourage us. He is called Comforter—He comforts with fire; He comforts by warming our hearts, by giving us that sure and certain hope that indeed we can be changed.
Be ye salted with FIRE. Amen and amen, that Your Spirit (our spirit) joined rightly to the Holy Spirit guide our every thought, word and deed so that we too may have salt in ourselves and be at peace, Lord Jesus, be our true Lord and command it so to each who drink and partake of You. Cause it to happen, here, now and within my sight, I do beseech you.
(oops, I almost forgot to give credit to the website that was found - a homily delivered on Pentecost Sunday from the pulpits of St. Nicolas Russian Orthodox Church in McKinney (Dallas area) Texas, 2004 seen in it's entirety here, Copyright © www.orthodox.net All Rights Reserved: "Please use this material in any edifying reason.")
Quick link to Humor Jokes and Games forum for a glimpse of a more typical Water Sharing.
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How is "worm" a synonym for unbelievers? That makes no sense.
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (ESV)
According to you, this reads: 'where their unbeliever does not die...'.
"Worm" is speaking of the worms that feed on the dead, as seen from the passage from which Mark quoted:
Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (ESV)
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Very good Sparrow, also note that when the bible mentions the words wicked or accursed ones, they are speaking of the unbelievers because they are still dead to God in sin. Wicked and accursed by nature.
How is "worm" a synonym for unbelievers? That makes no sense.
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (ESV)
According to you, this reads: 'where their unbeliever does not die...'.
"Worm" is speaking of the worms that feed on the dead, as seen from the passage from which Mark quoted:
Synonyms, there are multiple meanings for words in the Bible, only the Holy Spirit can discern truth for you. For example, the wicked/accursed ones/sinners - satan/devil - Jesus/son of God - eternity/forever and ever - etc etc..they are everywhere. discerning truth is what's important.
If you read Mark 9:48, it says their worm, who is they? Also, if you read Revelation 20:10 the word torment comes to light. Revelation 14:11 also torment forever and ever. Torment isn't written in the bible just for the sake of it. Revelation 2:11 says he who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death. A worm from an apple isn't what their talking about. Their referring to your soul. If you deny that torment is written in the Bible, then you deny scripture. For example, why would satan torment something forever and ever that doesn't exist.
According to you, a hitman for the Mobb who kills people, his soul will not suffer in hell, only worms in the ground will? How does that make sense? Destruction is not annihilation. The Bible says that Christ came to be the Savior of humanity. To be our Savior, we have to be saved from some type of punishment. Extinction is not a form of punishment. We must be saved from something! Eyes Open! :o
I have read through this thread also.
God does not create life to end at anytime. Take the Angels for example, they fell at some point in time right? Do we see God destroying(making nonexistent) any of them at the end? No we see them in eternal punishment.
Why would God then destroy(make non existent) just the humans? Why would we get the "poof your gone" and the Angels get eternal punishment?
Like Urk has been saying, I believe that it is eternal punishment and "their worm" is the unbelievers conscience.
To say that it is not eternal punishment, is to be-little the cross and what Christ did on the Cross. if the punishment was for a short period of time, that would be "works" and we know works do not save, it takes the "all power" out of the Cross. It is like saying that the Cross was not enough, God did not do enough!
And if God was to just "destroy" us, Is to say that God did not do His job. He could not quite get his point across to some of His Creation, so He would be unfair and unloving to send some to Hell forever.
People willfully walk to the Pit, We have a loving and Just God that has done His Job. God is loving and Just, and if we say that Hell is not eternal, we are saying that God did not love us when we were alive and did not offer us salvation.(everybody will get a true offer)
To say that hell is not eternal, is doing 2 things:
1. It says The Cross was not enough, and God did not do his Job for some people and did not love while they were on the earth.
2. It says that sin is not that bad, how can one little sin be that bad? Well to a Holy, Perfect, Just God...NOT ONE PERSON can Grasp the true implication of that one little sin to a perfect God.
Every time we sin,even a little thought(hate) has the power to send us to Hell forever! That 1 sin! And a Loving and Just God Paid for each and every one of those for the whole world by Killing his Son on a tree.
Satan does not rule Hell, He suffers like the rest. and their worm will not get better. They are in a place that is away from God.
Gods Love would keep ALL out of Hell. But His perfect justice has to be satisfied! And His Justice is satisfied when one believes on His Son.
God does not create life to end at anytime. Take the Angels for example, they fell at some point in time right? Do we see God destroying(making nonexistent) any of them at the end? No we see them in eternal punishment.
Why would God then destroy(make non existent) just the humans? Why would we get the "poof your gone" and the Angels get eternal punishment?
Like Urk has been saying, I believe that it is eternal punishment and "their worm" is the unbelievers conscience.
To say that it is not eternal punishment, is to be-little the cross and what Christ did on the Cross. if the punishment was for a short period of time, that would be "works" and we know works do not save, it takes the "all power" out of the Cross. It is like saying that the Cross was not enough, God did not do enough!
And if God was to just "destroy" us, Is to say that God did not do His job. He could not quite get his point across to some of His Creation, so He would be unfair and unloving to send some to Hell forever.
People willfully walk to the Pit, We have a loving and Just God that has done His Job. God is loving and Just, and if we say that Hell is not eternal, we are saying that God did not love us when we were alive and did not offer us salvation.(everybody will get a true offer)
To say that hell is not eternal, is doing 2 things:
1. It says The Cross was not enough, and God did not do his Job for some people and did not love while they were on the earth.
2. It says that sin is not that bad, how can one little sin be that bad? Well to a Holy, Perfect, Just God...NOT ONE PERSON can Grasp the true implication of that one little sin to a perfect God.
Every time we sin,even a little thought(hate) has the power to send us to Hell forever! That 1 sin! And a Loving and Just God Paid for each and every one of those for the whole world by Killing his Son on a tree.
Satan does not rule Hell, He suffers like the rest. and their worm will not get better. They are in a place that is away from God.
Gods Love would keep ALL out of Hell. But His perfect justice has to be satisfied! And His Justice is satisfied when one believes on His Son.
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- Apr 2, 2003
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I am well aware of what synonyms are and that words have multiple meanings. However, we do not necessarily need the Holy Spirit to discern such things. God has given us minds that can reason and he expects us to do so. There are all sorts of things to draw upon such as linguistics, various contexts, etc.
"They" is referring to unbelievers, or in the case of Isa 66:24, the enemies of God. The worms are worms that eat dead flesh.urk said:
You clearly are not following the discussion, at all. I'm not sure why I continue with it since this is not the first time you have done this to me. I have never denied torment nor that it may be forever. The problem is that you are sticking to only one definition of "torment."urk said:
That is not even close to where my position leads. Stop misrepresenting me.urk said:
Annihilation is a form of destruction.urk said:
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My thoughts are drawn to "The Pit" and the example of Jesus who heals a boy from an unclean spirit. From there we can follow cross-references to another example which may help illuminate this "Pit" of which we speak.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge gives these references for Mark 9:20 ---> 'the spirit'
Mark 9:18 Mark 9:26 ; Mark 1:26;5:3-5 Job 1:10-12;2:6-8 Luke 4:35;8:29;9:42 John 8:44 1 Peter 5:8
I searched for the conversation that Jesus had with an unclean spirit that was subsequently cast into swine and found: Mark Chapter 5.
Notice that "Legion" had begged Jesus. This deserves more attention because it ties into what we are looking at here. For this we turn to a parallel passage in Luke 8:30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. Luke 8:31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
While reading about the Demoniac of Gadara Healed, this word, "Abyss" (or abyssos), is the one that I wanted. It can be translated, "The Pit"! Here is the place to look for more information, critical to our discussion. I'll leave it to the attentive reader who trusts in the Holy Spirit for guidance to consider such things and only point to a quick reference to another meal, prepared for our consumption so long ago... found at the table spread for us in the dream given to the Apostle John by Jesus as seen in Rev 9:1 and thereabouts. Follow along from the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance reference found on one of my favorite sites, BlueLetterBible Beta
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HeisReal
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- May 10, 2012
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Agreed and well said. Logically, as God is, a non-eternal punishment in hell would seem to be incorrect as why sould Satan go to hell forever and people would not? Both are created by God, and sin is sin. Levels of and time spent sinning would be irrelevant in a timeline of eternity.
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Yes, we do need the Holy Spirit to discern because the mind of God is not our mind. It's not by our works, rather it's by his. Whether there is degrees of torment, torment is torment, what else do you need to know? Fire is fire, have you ever burned your finger on the stove? Hell is located at the center of the earth. Annihilation is a form of destruction yes, but torment forever and ever is not annihilation.
Thanks Ed that was kind of you.
- Apr 2, 2003
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For certain things, yes, but not to determine that 'worm' is referring to unbelievers and enemies of God.
I have already shown that torment is not just physical, and to that end it can be different for different people. So it is false to say that 'torment is torment.'urk said:
It is? Do you have Scripture to back that up? Do you believe God will destroy the heavens and the Earth one day?urk said:
I have never said that 'torment forever and ever' is annihilation. I was clearly addressing your statement: "Destruction is not annihilation." But now you are changing that and arguing against a point I never made. That is not fair debate practice.urk said:
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Worm is written in the bible, so to say we can discern this word with our own understanding is wrong. It's not false to say torment is torment, what are you talking about? Torment is what it is no matter the degree of punishment. Scripture that relates hell to the center of the earth is on google. Matthew 24:35 says his words will never pass away. It's best that we meditate on that.
Lastly, Mark 9:48 doesn't say their worm that eventually dies and the fire that is eventually quenched. No, rather the opposite. In regards to destroying the heavens and the earth, scriptures says 'passes away' not 'destroy'. For example, a born again christian passes away and dies, but he is renewed in his new immortal body, same body just renewed. I do not want to take anything out of context and upset the Lord, so please bear with me. We need to discern truth and take this slow.