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Grappler, for the third time, is Jesus God deity or just the son? lol. j/k is on you buddy, lol.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Did God create hell?
- Thread starter Grazer
- Start date
Grappler, for the third time, is Jesus God deity or just the son? lol. j/k is on you buddy, lol.
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This is part of the thread, it's all connected..knowing who Jesus is and why God created hell. You don't think Jesus and God are connected? Hmm, I'll make it easier for ya, is Jesus God deity? Do you know what a Jehovah Witness is?
You say they are all connected...well start connecting. lol I will be waiting for your point...you do have a point don't you??? Let me recap my point since you don't seem to be able to express your point without asking questions that have nothing to do with the topic. My point is how can a loving God who teaches his children to forgive their enemies turn around and torture the unrighteous dead not for a day not for a year but forever and ever and ever? The whole idea is foolish and irreconcilable with the character of God. Not too mention unscriptural.
LOL what a silly assumptions you make.
We hear your point. The scriptures teach us about another God. Not the one you describe. The one you describe is man made.
Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Punishment in hell is defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. There are people who would like to redefine that word aionios and say, "Well, it doesn't really mean forever." But if you do that with hell, you've just done it with heaven, because the same word is used to describe both. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting heaven. And I'll go one beyond that. The same word is used to describe God. And so if there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting heaven, nor is there an everlasting God. It is clear that God is eternal; and, therefore, that heaven is eternal, and so is hell. (John MacArthur, “A Testimony of One Surprised to Be in Hell, Part 2”)
Augustine put it simply more than 1,500 years ago: “To say that life eternal shall be endless, [but that] punishment eternal shall come to an end is the height of absurdity.”
Samuel 6:6-7
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
6 When they came to Nacon’s threshing floor, Uzzah reached out to the ark of God and took hold of it because the oxen had stumbled. 7 Then the Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah, and God struck him dead on the spot for his irreverence, and he died there next to the ark of God.
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To you, I'm the sinner. YOU should be telling ME how God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all connected. Do you know what the definition of insanity is, doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results? We have been preaching to you all day, but you're not listening Grappler. How many different ways can we say it, let's try this one since you haven't listened to me all day. God doesn't torture the unrighteous. The unrighteous tortures themselves by rebuking God and living in sin their whole lives. They blame God like a little immature religious person, they think the world owes them something. They don't wanna take responsibility for themselves because they've been pampered their whole lives, they are children of privilege.
Unscriptural? torment forever and ever is actually very scriptural, you've just been simply ignoring me all day. Forgiveness from man and forgiveness from God are two completely different things, I've already told you this. It's foolish to you because you haven't been saved yet. If you were saved, you would be the first prophet telling people about heaven and hell. The fact that you don't believe there's no torment in hell is prime example of a FALSE PROPHET!!
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Actually the result of Hell which is the destruction of the unrighteous is eternal they will never ever again have life. If the unrighteous dead have eternal life in a torture chamber then John 3:16 is a lie. Now i don't think Jesus was lying and i am sure you don't either. Only those who believe in the Son are given eternal life. Now if you want to continue to believe that the lost are screaming in agony and will be for eternity then by all means i don't want to take that freedom from you...i am just trying to show you that you don't have to feel obligated to believe the traditional doctrine of Hell and that there are scriptures to prove it.:yes
- Jun 21, 2009
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Sometimes it feels like I'm stalking reba, because so often her nimble fingers find their way into threads before me, but while looking at the past 3 pages of posts a certain alarm is sounded in me. Take a moment all, and see if you agree with me. No, I'm not talking about the issue, but rather, the concern is found when I read the several posts that are directed back and forth between Members.
It may be too much to expect a true Acts 17:11 Berean attempt here in a thread where things are so polarized, but we can and will continue to expect all members to direct their posts toward the subject and not at the person. Next time we notice that the word "You" is being highlighted, bolded or given increased size, take that second, recall this post, avoid official warnings and hit the backspace button three times before using the "reply to thread" command.
I'm specifically thinking about the 2.5 section of our Terms of Service here, quoted for your convenience:
May I quietly suggest that we consider the boundaries that might be explored within the concept of "Universalism"? Universalism, in the religious context, claims that religion is a universal human quality. This can be contrasted with nonuniversalist religions. But what I don't want to do is be seen as trying to stir the pot overmuch. Just seems to me that God's plan isn't universal, that some will not hear Jesus say, "Enter, thou good and faithful servant," and the discussion might be better centered there instead of the typical "Yes, He did," and "No, he didn't," aspects found that all too quickly degrade into the personal attack regions.
Cordially,
Sparrow
It may be too much to expect a true Acts 17:11 Berean attempt here in a thread where things are so polarized, but we can and will continue to expect all members to direct their posts toward the subject and not at the person. Next time we notice that the word "You" is being highlighted, bolded or given increased size, take that second, recall this post, avoid official warnings and hit the backspace button three times before using the "reply to thread" command.
I'm specifically thinking about the 2.5 section of our Terms of Service here, quoted for your convenience:
May I quietly suggest that we consider the boundaries that might be explored within the concept of "Universalism"? Universalism, in the religious context, claims that religion is a universal human quality. This can be contrasted with nonuniversalist religions. But what I don't want to do is be seen as trying to stir the pot overmuch. Just seems to me that God's plan isn't universal, that some will not hear Jesus say, "Enter, thou good and faithful servant," and the discussion might be better centered there instead of the typical "Yes, He did," and "No, he didn't," aspects found that all too quickly degrade into the personal attack regions.
Cordially,
Sparrow
Dude settle down a little. Wow. Not only do you want to hold onto this idea that the unrighteous dead deserve to be in unbelievable torment forever you are now casting judgment on me and calling me unsaved and a false prophet. Show me some love.lol Urk...you act as if the belief in an eternal place of torment is a necessity for your salvation...it is not...believing in the Jesus the Son of God is necessary. Anyways i am not trying to take away your freedom to believe in eternal suffering...if you want to cling to the belief that the unrighteous are screaming in agony and will be for eternity then by all means continue doing so...i was just trying to show you that as Christians we are under no obligation to believe such a thing and there are scriptures to back it up. :yes
Odd isn't Sparrow how we tend to find the same trouble spots.... Some times I wonder why we volunteer to bang our heads against the stubborn walls of self righteousness. Who got you into this?
Sparrow's reply: "I wonder that sometimes myself. My considered reply is that The Lord did, through you and your prompting. Thank you, I will share that which is given to me from Him with you and with joy."
Sparrow's reply: "I wonder that sometimes myself. My considered reply is that The Lord did, through you and your prompting. Thank you, I will share that which is given to me from Him with you and with joy."
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LOL feel obligated. It's not an obligtion rather the clear teaching of scripture.
I believe scripture must interpet scripture.
John Piper explains it better than I can. He also knows how to spell and that is so helpful!
What Is Perishing?
Of all the things that the Bible teaches about what happens when unbelievers die, let me mention four.
1. Perishing Means Being Under the Wrath of God
Verse 18, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already." The issue is not merely dying, but being judged by God. Verse 36 is the most sobering of all in this gospel: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
What this shows us is that if we are rescued from perishing, it is because the love of God has rescued us from the wrath of God. To perish means that we remain under the wrath of God because we will not trust Christ. And that is a terrifying place to be.
2. Perishing Means Fiery Torment
In one of John's other books, the Revelation (14:10), he describes the one who is perishing like this:
He will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Perishing is not, as some say, going out of existence. It is staying in existence and suffering in the fiery torments of hell.
One celebrity joked last week that he did not want to go to heaven because he couldn't improve anything there. It's too perfect. He preferred hell because he could make a contribution. Let's pray that God wake him up before that kind of levity will become unredeemable hardness. It's hard to make improvements when you are in agony.
3. Perishing Means Separation from the Glory of God
Paul describes the perishing in 2 Thessalonians 1:9,
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
Here in this world God reveals himself in a thousand ways every day, if we would see. In hell the perishing will be cut off from all his work—except the work of wrath.
4. Perishing Is Everlasting and Irreversible
Here in John 3:16 it's the opposite of eternal life. Jesus calls it "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46. In Luke 16:26 he says there is a great chasm fixed between heaven and hell, so that no one goes from one to the other. Perishing is eternal and irreversible.
Perishing means wrath; it means fiery torment; it means separation from God; and it lasts forever. Now I tell you this plainly as a warning to flee from the wrath of God to the love of God through the door of Jesus Christ. This is an awesome moment for us in this service. Because what this moment means is that any of us who stands before the throne of judgment unbelieving will not be able to say to the Lord, "Nobody ever told me what was at stake." The Lord will say, "On December 4, 1994, at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, I appointed you to be there and I appointed my servant John Piper to warn you. You were there and he did warn you."
Now is the acceptable time, today is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2). The great news of John 3:16 is that the love of God rescues us from the wrath of God through faith in Jesus Christ.
Why Are We All Perishing If We Don't Trust in Christ?
The simplest way to answer this is to quote the apostle Paul inRomans 3:23, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And Romans 6:23, "The wages of sin is death," that is, perishing. We have all sinned. And sin deserves perishing.
But there is a less simple, but utterly crucial and biblical way to go a step deeper. Why is sin so serious as to deserve perishing? The answer is that God is the most worthy person in the universe. His greatness and his value are infinite. All things are measured by him. He is the beginning and the ending of all things. Every person depends on him for everything. We owe him perfect trust and allegiance and love and worship and honor and respect and obedience, because he made us and owns us and sustains us.
Therefore rejecting him, and distrusting him, and disobeying him, and neglecting him, and enjoying other things more than him—all these are infinite insults because he is an infinite treasure. And an infinite insult—or a life of infinite insults—deserves infinite punishment.
The more you dwell on that the more precious John 3:16 becomes: God loved us enough to give his own Son to rescue us from this perishing.
- Jun 21, 2009
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I like looking at the cross-references to the "Narrow Gate" found HERE (and elsewhere)
Edward, good quote there. Thank you.
Edward, good quote there. Thank you.
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Grappler, I apologize. Blessings.
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VirginShallConceive
Guest
Let's say, hypothetically, that everybody who ever existed or will exist gets to be in Heaven for eternity . . . except for one soul . . . Adolph Hitler. He gets to burn . . . for eternity.
If I truly knew this, the rest of my life would be spent trying to build a time machine, no matter how ridiculous or futile it may seem, so I could go back in time and intercept a little boy named Adolph, and this is the only action I can even think of to even try to prevent this particular soul from enduring eternal torture. This little boy has needs. He wants to be happy just like all of us. Maybe he is surrounded by people who indoctrinate him with foolish hatred. Or, maybe he has something physically wrong with his brain that makes him indifferent to other people's suffering. Or, maybe he has a little of both.
Why would I spend the rest of my life trying to build a time machine? Because this life is infinitely short when compared to eternity. Just sixty seconds of extreme torture is terrible. One hour of extreme torture is unbearable. Infinite extreme torture is unfathomable.
Another important thing I need to keep in mind is that when I go to Heaven, I won't care about Adolph Hitler burning in Hell for all eternity, because if I do care, it wouldn't be Heaven. Therefore, I have to act while I'm on this earth and still care. The older I get, the faster time seems to whiz by anyway.
But maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm crazy for caring about a serious eternal issue such as that, if it were true.
You tell me.
Why am I not going to spend the rest of my life trying to build a time machine? Because I don't believe in eternal torture. Not for one second. At least my actions coincide with my beliefs.
If I truly knew this, the rest of my life would be spent trying to build a time machine, no matter how ridiculous or futile it may seem, so I could go back in time and intercept a little boy named Adolph, and this is the only action I can even think of to even try to prevent this particular soul from enduring eternal torture. This little boy has needs. He wants to be happy just like all of us. Maybe he is surrounded by people who indoctrinate him with foolish hatred. Or, maybe he has something physically wrong with his brain that makes him indifferent to other people's suffering. Or, maybe he has a little of both.
Why would I spend the rest of my life trying to build a time machine? Because this life is infinitely short when compared to eternity. Just sixty seconds of extreme torture is terrible. One hour of extreme torture is unbearable. Infinite extreme torture is unfathomable.
Another important thing I need to keep in mind is that when I go to Heaven, I won't care about Adolph Hitler burning in Hell for all eternity, because if I do care, it wouldn't be Heaven. Therefore, I have to act while I'm on this earth and still care. The older I get, the faster time seems to whiz by anyway.
But maybe that's just me. Maybe I'm crazy for caring about a serious eternal issue such as that, if it were true.
You tell me.
Why am I not going to spend the rest of my life trying to build a time machine? Because I don't believe in eternal torture. Not for one second. At least my actions coincide with my beliefs.
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- Apr 2, 2003
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A couple of problems with your argument. Firstly, it doesn't make sense to build a time machine because you want to undo something that you think needs to be undone. You are not God and do not know how things are to unfold, how they were meant to unfold, and what the results would be should someone be able to go back in time and change things that have happened.
Secondly, the Bible is very clear that there will be punishment in hell and it seems to be suggested that they will be there for eternity. However, it is a strawman to suggest that people will be in torture in hell for eternity.
Lol...about as clear as mud. Ok so it is not a matter of obligation with you. Is it more like a matter of you really like believing in the eternal torture of the unrighteous regardless of scripture either way?? Oh ok cool so perishing doesn't really mean perishing it means eternal life in torment...interesting. So it doesn't matter whether we believe in the Son or not we still get eternal life?? I don't know who John Piper is...is he kin to the Pied Piper?? Matthew 10:28" And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." So according to Mr. Piper i guess the word "destroy" really doesn't mean to destroy something but to keep it alive??LOL feel obligated. It's not an obligtion rather the clear teaching of scripture.
I believe scripture must interpet scripture.
John Piper explains it better than I can. He also knows how to spell and that is so helpful!
What Is Perishing?
Of all the things that the Bible teaches about what happens when unbelievers die, let me mention four.
1. Perishing Means Being Under the Wrath of God
Verse 18, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already." The issue is not merely dying, but being judged by God. Verse 36 is the most sobering of all in this gospel: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
What this shows us is that if we are rescued from perishing, it is because the love of God has rescued us from the wrath of God. To perish means that we remain under the wrath of God because we will not trust Christ. And that is a terrifying place to be.
2. Perishing Means Fiery Torment
In one of John's other books, the Revelation (14:10), he describes the one who is perishing like this:
He will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.Perishing is not, as some say, going out of existence. It is staying in existence and suffering in the fiery torments of hell.
One celebrity joked last week that he did not want to go to heaven because he couldn't improve anything there. It's too perfect. He preferred hell because he could make a contribution. Let's pray that God wake him up before that kind of levity will become unredeemable hardness. It's hard to make improvements when you are in agony.
3. Perishing Means Separation from the Glory of God
Paul describes the perishing in 2 Thessalonians 1:9,
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.Here in this world God reveals himself in a thousand ways every day, if we would see. In hell the perishing will be cut off from all his work—except the work of wrath.
4. Perishing Is Everlasting and Irreversible
Here in John 3:16 it's the opposite of eternal life. Jesus calls it "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46. In Luke 16:26 he says there is a great chasm fixed between heaven and hell, so that no one goes from one to the other. Perishing is eternal and irreversible.
Perishing means wrath; it means fiery torment; it means separation from God; and it lasts forever. Now I tell you this plainly as a warning to flee from the wrath of God to the love of God through the door of Jesus Christ. This is an awesome moment for us in this service. Because what this moment means is that any of us who stands before the throne of judgment unbelieving will not be able to say to the Lord, "Nobody ever told me what was at stake." The Lord will say, "On December 4, 1994, at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, I appointed you to be there and I appointed my servant John Piper to warn you. You were there and he did warn you."
Now is the acceptable time, today is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2). The great news of John 3:16 is that the love of God rescues us from the wrath of God through faith in Jesus Christ.
Why Are We All Perishing If We Don't Trust in Christ?
The simplest way to answer this is to quote the apostle Paul inRomans 3:23, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And Romans 6:23, "The wages of sin is death," that is, perishing. We have all sinned. And sin deserves perishing.
But there is a less simple, but utterly crucial and biblical way to go a step deeper. Why is sin so serious as to deserve perishing? The answer is that God is the most worthy person in the universe. His greatness and his value are infinite. All things are measured by him. He is the beginning and the ending of all things. Every person depends on him for everything. We owe him perfect trust and allegiance and love and worship and honor and respect and obedience, because he made us and owns us and sustains us.
Therefore rejecting him, and distrusting him, and disobeying him, and neglecting him, and enjoying other things more than him—all these are infinite insults because he is an infinite treasure. And an infinite insult—or a life of infinite insults—deserves infinite punishment.
The more you dwell on that the more precious John 3:16 becomes: God loved us enough to give his own Son to rescue us from this perishing.
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Yeah!...and strawmen burn up very fast..or something.
Oh thats okay i found it amusing...anyways i am just trying to get people to think a little "outside of the box". Sometimes we get caught up in the mainstream traditional way of thinking and the traditional way of thinking is not always as scripturally solid as mainstream churches like to think. If you step outside of the box...sometimes things look different. God bless you.