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Did Jesus contradict the OT?

  • Thread starter Thread starter guitarman
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guitarman

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Handy wrote:

Off topic, guitarman. Open a new thread on it, but only if you are really interested in doing the study necessary to find out why things changed when Jesus came. We'll look at the book of Hebrews and a fair bit of Romans as well as some of what Jesus Himself declared about His ministry. If you are asking this just in the spirit to "trip me up" or whatever, don't bother, but I'm more than willing to delve into the very rich answer that your question has.- Dora

No I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm really interested in what christians have to say about the contradictions within the bible. Consider me a blank slate; throw some bible at me and let's see what sticks.
 
guitarman said:
Handy wrote:

Off topic, guitarman. Open a new thread on it, but only if you are really interested in doing the study necessary to find out why things changed when Jesus came. We'll look at the book of Hebrews and a fair bit of Romans as well as some of what Jesus Himself declared about His ministry. If you are asking this just in the spirit to "trip me up" or whatever, don't bother, but I'm more than willing to delve into the very rich answer that your question has.- Dora

No I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm really interested in what christians have to say about the contradictions within the bible. Consider me a blank slate; throw some bible at me and let's see what sticks.

corsses2.jpg


Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


turnorburn
 
Turnorburn wrote:
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I'm actually trying to get a real debate going. I'm interested in what christians have to say about what those of us who are not christians perceive to be contradictions within the bible. Quoting random bible verses doesn't really help much.
 
guitarman said:
No I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm really interested in what christians have to say about the contradictions within the bible. Consider me a blank slate; throw some bible at me and let's see what sticks.


Jesus says....

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. KJV


If you gave these verses to 4 different people, you would get 4 different responses.
So, when heaven and earth pass away....we will ALL know and understand what it means! No?
 
Friend, do you see how foolish your question is? In setting up your question so that you can contradict scritpture, you are in fact trying to quench knowledge. You're not even giving scripture a chance with your presuppositional attitude.
 
guitarman said:
Turnorburn wrote:
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I'm actually trying to get a real debate going. I'm interested in what christians have to say about what those of us who are not christians perceive to be contradictions within the bible. Quoting random bible verses doesn't really help much.

Hi guitarman, I was wondering if you were going to follow through with this. To catch us up with the topic, I hunted down your original question in the Noah thread:

I know this is slightly off topic but handy wrote: "No, I don't know everything, but I trust that the Bible does and while I don't precisely look down my nose at other people's beliefs, I also won't accept anything that contradicts the clear teaching of Word of God. And, one thing that is clearly taught in the Word of God, whether we are speaking of the world wide flood or of God's judgment and wrath against some of the pagan nations or even against Israel, is that sometimes it is a pretty fearful thing to land in the hand of the Living God." Does that mean that you believe that homosexuals and witches should be killed? Or that you can't eat a kid(baby goat) that has been boiled in it's mother's milk? Or any of the other crazy laws god laid down in the OT? Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and that those old laws didn't really matter anymore. Does that mean that Jesus contradicted the laws his dad set out? It sounds like the bible contradicts itself.

If I'm understanding your question correctly you find that Jesus' words and ministry contradict the OT Laws. And, at first glance, they do indeed. However, by understanding the nature of the law in the OT and how Jesus did fulfill the Law, we understand why no, we do not kill witches and homosexuals or really care whether or not a kid was boiled in milk and no, Jesus was not contradicting Dad's laws. Some of the law does seem "crazy" to modern man complete with 20/20 hindsight, but nonetheless they served a purpose.

To start this study off, it's good to start with this from Galatians 3:24-25 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

A tutor, of course, is one who teaches a child what he needs to know. In the case of the Law, what we needed to know what how vastly different God's standards of holiness were from man's. Since the fall of man, man's understanding of God was limited and tainted by sin. Since mankind was cut off from God's holy presence, we began to develop our own ideas of righteousness. Each one to his own way, so to speak. It's easy to see this in our own place and time. We here in the West are horrified by the idea of a woman being beaten to death by her husband, father, or brothers because she spoke to a man she isn't related to, and yet in many places in the world, this is considered very right. These kinds of conflicts has made it very common for many to simply state, there is no right or wrong, it's all relative to one's culture, and yet even that is wrong. It was relative to the culture of the South in the 1800's to view as slavery as right, and we can all agree that slavery is not right. Mankind is so far outside of God's will, that God gave us the Law to help us understand His holy standards, and how woefully inadequate we are to even understand them, much less live up to them.

I realize that this doesn't even begin to answer any questions you have, guitarman, and probably only serves to raise up even more questions, but that's OK. We can get more specific as we look further into this, I just bring this up as a start.

It's important to understand that it was never God's intention that anyone be saved by following the Law. What the law did was to give us God's standards. Folks were saved then, just as we are saved now, via faith in God. If you read Hebrews 11, you will see a whole litany of people who were saved, not by the law, but by walking in faith in God.

This isn't to say that the Law was unimportant. It was vitally important, just not as an avenue for salvation.

So, that's a start. I'll wait for you to read and respond and we can move forward from there.

Also, guitarman, if you like, we can set this study up as a one on one debate. I don't know how many people you want to field responses from. Totally up to you, but the mods can move this to the debate forum, if you want to discuss mano a womano.
 
Thanks for responding handy. Before we get too specific in the scripture, I would just like to ask a general question. I grew up as a christian and the first thing that made me question the validity of the bible and the christian faith was the fact that the OT and NT were so vastly different. In the OT god is judgemental and wrathful and jealous, but in the NT jesus is all love and peace. (I know that I'm grossly generalizing the bible, but that's how they appear to me.) Now supposedly these two testaments were about the same god. But how could they be? They seem like they were written about two competely different people. Even as a child I realized that it didn't make sense, and the fact that everyone refused to talk about it made me question even more. I'm just wondering how you reconcile the two testaments. I've also wondered, if christians don't have to follow all of those crazy OT laws, why are they still included in the bible? It seems to me like you'd be saving yourselves a lot of trouble if you cut out most of the OT, if not all of it.
 
Sounds like you're pimping the heretical doctrine of Marcionism there, dude. :halo
 
This subject draws to light another question....do all Christians believe they do not have to follow the Old Testament laws in which Moses and the Israelites were given?

I, myself, believe we are not totally excempt from the law. The scripture quoted above supports that. Jesus said: "I am not here to destroy the law, but to fulfill."
 
guitarman said:
Thanks for responding handy. Before we get too specific in the scripture, I would just like to ask a general question. I grew up as a christian and the first thing that made me question the validity of the bible and the christian faith was the fact that the OT and NT were so vastly different. In the OT god is judgemental and wrathful and jealous, but in the NT jesus is all love and peace. (I know that I'm grossly generalizing the bible, but that's how they appear to me.) Now supposedly these two testaments were about the same god. But how could they be? They seem like they were written about two competely different people. Even as a child I realized that it didn't make sense, and the fact that everyone refused to talk about it made me question even more. I'm just wondering how you reconcile the two testaments. I've also wondered, if christians don't have to follow all of those crazy OT laws, why are they still included in the bible? It seems to me like you'd be saving yourselves a lot of trouble if you cut out most of the OT, if not all of it.

No problem with starting out with generalities. I can understand why you would say that it would seem that the two testatments describe two completely different people. However, as with most generalities when we look closer, we see that what seems to be so, isn’t necessarily the full story.

You stated that in the OT, God is judgmental, wrathful and jealous. True enough. However, if you look closely at the New Testament we still see that God is judgmental, wrathful and jealous. Also, if we look at the OT, we can see where God is loving, forgiving and faithful to His people, caller Israel His Bride and breaking His heart over her faithlessness and propensity to leave him and follow after some truly horrible gods.

And, looking closely at Jesus and at His disciples, we see that it’s not all sunshine and lollipops with them either. The picture of an angry Jesus wielding a whip over some money tables isn't a comfortable one to consider for those who want Jesus to be only sweet and kind.

One reconciles the two testaments by understanding what is taking place within them. The Bible is all one testament, the testament of how God made man, out of love, how man was lost to sin, and how God redeemed man. We cannot remove the old testament, because it’s vital in understanding not only who we are and where we came from, but Who God is and what He had done for us.
 
handy wrote:
You stated that in the OT, God is judgmental, wrathful and jealous. True enough. However, if you look closely at the New Testament we still see that God is judgmental, wrathful and jealous. Also, if we look at the OT, we can see where God is loving, forgiving and faithful to His people, caller Israel His Bride and breaking His heart over her faithlessness and propensity to leave him and follow after some truly horrible gods.

And, looking closely at Jesus and at His disciples, we see that it’s not all sunshine and lollipops with them either. The picture of an angry Jesus wielding a whip over some money tables isn't a comfortable one to consider for those who want Jesus to be only sweet and kind.

One reconciles the two testaments by understanding what is taking place within them. The Bible is all one testament, the testament of how God made man, out of love, how man was lost to sin, and how God redeemed man. We cannot remove the old testament, because it’s vital in understanding not only who we are and where we came from, but Who God is and what He had done for us.

Like I said, I was grossly generalizing but when most people think of the OT and NT, that's what they think of, at least the people that I know. In the OT god is loving and forgiving to HIS people, the Israelites, but what about the others? I remember several passages where god commands the Israelites to slaughter all the men, women, and children, or just the men and keep the virgins for themselves, or even the last plague in egypt that killed the first-born children. That doesn't seem to be a loving god to me. He loves the jews but not anyone else it sounds like. If god created us all, why would he kill so many of them this casually? I could never reconcile myself to that fact and I wonder how christians do. Again, it just seems contradictory to me.
 
Your concern is a common enough one, guitarman. I think back to the thread that this originated from and a dialog between Seeker and myself. At that time, Seeker had brought up the issue of innocent children who died in the flood. At that time, I also brought up the fact that death isn’t the worst thing that can happen to a kid either.

The problem for us humans is that we are constrained by the space/time continuum. For us, death is the final and most horrible thing to happen because it seems to end us. God doesn’t see death in quite the same way. As God lives outside of space or time, He most likely looks at the death of innocents as His time to gather them in. This isn’t to say that I think that death for innocent children is a great thing, as I mentioned then, it’s one of the worst consequences of sin. I’m just bringing it up that God looks at it differently than we do. However, I’m not presuming to speak for Him in this matter.

I think of Job and how he went through horrible suffering at what almost seems a capricious bet between God and Satan. By the end of the book, I’m questioning God just as much as Job is. However, we see quite clearly that God doesn’t view Himself as being answerable to me any more than He views Himself answerable to Job. When Job basically asserted nothing more than the truth, that he was a man of integrity God’s response was pretty high and mighty. We are reminded that He is indeed the High and Mighty one.

It’s the mark of a thinking man to be troubled by these things, guitarman. Those who blithely blather on about God’s sweetness and light probably haven’t read the Bible all that closely. As it says in Hebrews, it is a fearful thing to be in the hands of the living God. They can quote John 3:16 fast enough, but stumble when it comes to Isaiah 45:7.

I freely admit that the Bible gives us a troubling picture of God. However, I do believe that as time goes by, and when we delve into all what God has to say in the Scriptures, we find that He isn’t capricious, hateful or petty. That His judgments are just, His mercies are great and He truly does love the whole world. It takes getting into the word though. It takes time, prayer and trust and if one isn’t willing to invest those, then understanding will most likely not occur.

Guitarman, there are things that I'm willing to discuss and things which I don't see any point in discussing. When it comes to why we don't need to follow OT laws such as the kosher diet or stoning witches, I'm more than willing to discuss these things which I've poured over myself in 30+ years of being a Christian. To provide harmony between the OT and New, sure, that's a worthy discussion to have. I'm not claiming to have all these things figured out, (when I do, I'll write a book :D ) but I've studied them enough to give at least a rudimentary answer as to why there aren't any contradictions between the Old and New Testaments and why the same God is over both.

However, I tend not to spend a lot of time discussing the existence of God or whether or not there is an eternity outside of the space/time continuum. I bring this up because it does become a basis for further discussion. If you are at least able to concede, for the sake of discussion that God is and is a rewarder of those who seek Him, then we can talk about the apparent inconsistencies in Scriptures from the Christian pov, and then you can consider them.
 
You make some good points, handy, but may I add a few? God appears mean to people who don't understand the bigger picture, because they haven't been reading their Bible. God was not "mean, angry, and wrathful" in the Old Testament. In fact, He seems much harsher in the New Testament, which gives clarity to the Old.
Take for example in Scripture when God complained to His people in Isaiah that they said, "Make Him go away lest He kill us!" That hurt God's feelings a lot because He was showing them His great power as a gesture of love for His children, so He made a personal complaint against the Israelites in the wilderness concerning their remark.
Another example of God's love and mercy in the Old Testament is the book of Judges. In Judges, God was so long-suffering with His billigerant people that He spent literally milleniums handing His people over to their enemies, waiting for them abandon their idols and call on Him to save them, and then delivering them. This cycle went on for hundreds of thousands of years. If I were God, I would have abandoned the Israelites long ago! They were a truly unfaithful people.
As for your concern for God telling the Jews to take the women and leave the men, I don't know where you got that from but I'd like to see some verses as proof.
Lastly, seeing that you think God loved His own people more than others, it is written in John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." God planned on saving the whole world, not just the Jews, for it is also written, "For they are not all Jews who are of Israel..." (forgot verses here). So I hope that helps to paint a brighter picture of God.
 
handy said:
It was relative to the culture of the South in the 1800's to view as slavery as right, and we can all agree that slavery is not right. Mankind is so far outside of God's will, that God gave us the Law to help us understand His holy standards, and how woefully inadequate we are to even understand them, much less live up to them

So God sanctioned slavery in the Hebrew bible as a 'holy standard' to help us understand that slavery is wrong?


Thanks,
E.L.B.
 
guitarman said:
Thanks for responding handy. Before we get too specific in the scripture, I would just like to ask a general question. I grew up as a christian and the first thing that made me question the validity of the bible and the christian faith was the fact that the OT and NT were so vastly different. In the OT god is judgemental and wrathful and jealous, but in the NT jesus is all love and peace. (I know that I'm grossly generalizing the bible, but that's how they appear to me.) Now supposedly these two testaments were about the same god. But how could they be? They seem like they were written about two competely different people. Even as a child I realized that it didn't make sense, and the fact that everyone refused to talk about it made me question even more. I'm just wondering how you reconcile the two testaments. I've also wondered, if christians don't have to follow all of those crazy OT laws, why are they still included in the bible? It seems to me like you'd be saving yourselves a lot of trouble if you cut out most of the OT, if not all of it.

First I must tell you , that most of what you say, comes out of a lack of true understanding.Something that only you can really rectify (if you indeed want to ! )

Your perception about God being different in the Old and the New is not true. I do not know if you will understand this, but I will give it go :)

Jesus quotes this scripture .Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.

But notice, that he he stopped, without quoting the rest: He left out and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;




Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

He left it out because the start of the New Testament, is the start of God's grace and not not God's vengeance. God's vengeance is scheduled as well and that too will happen, but Jesus came as the redeemer and at that time, not as the Judge.(that will come later)

So your picture of a loving God in the New Testament is correct, but that picture is expanded also in the New Testament, where you can still see God in His judgment :

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their lawless deeds):
2Pe 2:9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment;
 
shepherd.jpg


This same Jesus is coming back soon only this time it will be as the Lion Of Judah
I suggest for your own sake you should bone up on this chapter

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 
Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah's favor,
That is why you see the loving side. He first came to proclaim the favor

Now if we complete the verse;

Isa 61:2 ............ and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Now here is the same Jesus, coming to bring the last part of Isa 61:2

Rev 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

His return, fulfills the last part of Isa 61 and then brings the whole picture of God back into focus. The time for mercy has then past and now the judgment must come too.

C
 
Handy wrote:
However, I tend not to spend a lot of time discussing the existence of God or whether or not there is an eternity outside of the space/time continuum. I bring this up because it does become a basis for further discussion. If you are at least able to concede, for the sake of discussion that God is and is a rewarder of those who seek Him, then we can talk about the apparent inconsistencies in Scriptures from the Christian pov, and then you can consider them.

Well, I can't concede that there is a god who rewards those who seek him, but I don't think that should stop our discussion. I agree with the philosphers when they say I can't prove a universal negative, that is, I can't prove that there is no god anywhere in the universe. But in the same way, you can't positively prove to me that there is a god. Christians rely on the bible, but not everyone accepts it as the word of god, I certainly don't. Whether or not god exists is a discussion for another thread, I'm just interested in how christians can reconcile the two seemingly inconsistent testaments.

Other people on this thread, and maybe you as well but I don't want to misquote you, have said that the reason I think the OT and NT are contradictory is because I haven't studied them enough and don't have a true understanding. I might not have studied them as much as some here, but I have read them thouroughly. That was what got me in trouble in the first place. As a child, I went to sunday school, sunday morning church, youth groups, wednesday youth groups, you name it. I had plenty of time to study the bible. Before I read so much of the bible, I believed it. But the more I read, the less sense it seemed to make, and the contradictions stood out even more. I didn't lose my faith because I was lazy or mad at my parents or whatever crap reasons a lot of people give, I lost my faith because I read the bible and studied it.

Anyway, I don't think that a belief in god is a prerequisite for a discussion about the bible. I've had lots of discussions with people about the bible, believers and non-believers alike. Since I think of the bible as an interesting book and not the word of god, it's easier for me to dicuss it more dispassionatly than christians. If you need me to accept your prerequisite as the basis for our discussion, that's fine. I agree with Aristotle that it is the wise man who can hold two opposing ideas in his mind at the same time. By the way, thanks for not quoting a lot of scripture at me, like many here do. We're still discussing generalities. We could spend a lifetime cherry picking random verses to support our points; that would be a waste of time. Right now, I'm mainly referring to the overall tone of each testament. That is what has turned off many people to the bible, not just specific verses.
 
guitarman said:
Anyway, I don't think that a belief in god is a prerequisite for a discussion about the bible. I've had lots of discussions with people about the bible, believers and non-believers alike. Since I think of the bible as an interesting book and not the word of god, it's easier for me to dicuss it more dispassionatly than christians. If you need me to accept your prerequisite as the basis for our discussion, that's fine. I agree with Aristotle that it is the wise man who can hold two opposing ideas in his mind at the same time. By the way, thanks for not quoting a lot of scripture at me, like many here do. We're still discussing generalities. We could spend a lifetime cherry picking random verses to support our points; that would be a waste of time. Right now, I'm mainly referring to the overall tone of each testament. That is what has turned off many people to the bible, not just specific verses.

Welcome Guitarman!!

Just started reading this discussion. Very interesting and I agree, quoting lots and lots of verses isnt going to do much for you in this whole area. In fact I found it really annoying too. Good job Handy!! :clap

The tone of each testament is very different because of one major difference: Jesus.

Without Jeus and His resurrection our faith falls into a screaming heap. As would the Bible.

Remember too that the Bible wasnt written in one go, but what we know as the OT is pretty much the Jewish book of worship and was in existance before Jesus was born around 4 AD (or BC can't quite remember) on Earth.

What we know as the NT was a collection of letters written by a number of people either to churches or written to an audience with a particular purpose in mind. As Christians we believe these to be the inspired Word of God. One mistake many people make is to try and pigeon-hole the Bible into somehting that it isnt, rather than taking it on its own terms.

I was 29 when I became a Christian and have had similar questions as a non-Christian myself, one being the historical accuracy of the NT for example. To be honest, in hindsight a lot of those questions I had were ways of putting off the prickly problem of my own sin and rebellion against God. As Christians we receive the Holy Spirrit and that helps in understanding more about God and ultimately the Bible.

More than happy to chat more but its 7am Thursday here, and I have to go to work. The price for being ahead of most of the world I guess.

God Bless
 
In Isaiah, prophecy seems to indicate that the present earth will be transformed in a marvelous way. It cannot be referring to "heaven" since people will die, and there will still be sinners.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind. But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress. No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, or bear children for calamity; for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their children with them. Before they call I will answer, while they are yet speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD." Isaiah 65:17-25 RSV

However, according to 2 Peter, this present earth will not be transformed but UTTERLY DESTROYED! Then the new heavens and earth will presumably created anew. and be available for the righteous.

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.... But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:7, 10-13

I don't think we need to be overly concerned or upset just because there are contradictions, such as this, in the Bible. Jesus is the one who revealed to mankind what the Father is REALLY like. He did it mostly by His example, but also by His verbal teaching. For Jesus is another, begotten at the beginning of time, who is exactly like His Father. That's why He was able to say, "He who has seen me has seen the Father."
 
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