Did Jesus teach election ?

[Eventide]

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They were not Chosen..

They couldn't have been chosen because they didn't believe the truth, and obviously that is one of the conditions for God to choose.. sanctification of the Spirit and believe of the truth..

Also... there was a time when you didn't believe right.. I mean you were not born into this world believing the gospel... and as scripture so aptly declares.. it was after ye believed that ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise and that is when God chose you IN CHRIST.

 

[RoadDebris]

They couldn't have been chosen because they didn't believe the truth, and obviously that is one of the conditions for God to choose.. sanctification of the Spirit and believe of the truth..

Also... there was a time when you didn't believe right.. I mean you were not born into this world believing the gospel... and as scripture so aptly declares.. it was after ye believed that ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise and that is when God chose you IN CHRIST.

You keep getting the effects of salvation mixed up with it's cause. People are able to believe in (i.e. more than just intellectually understand but genuinely accept) Jesus as Lord after they are born again, not before.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rd:

You keep getting the effects of salvation mixed up with it's cause.

Yes, before the Sheep believe they are still Sheep, Sheep are unbelievers before they believe, but because they are sheep they will believe.

Jesus means that when He says Jn 10:


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Notice,He says other sheep I have [present indicative of echo and means I am possessing]

He already possessed them as His Sheep but they shall hear [future indicative of akouo and means they will in the future be hearing His voice.

Thats the hearing of Faith as in Gal 3:2

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

So their future hearing of Faith is assured because They are Christ Sheep.

 

[Eventide]

You keep getting the effects of salvation mixed up with it's cause. People are able to believe in (i.e. more than just intellectually understand but genuinely accept) Jesus as Lord after they are born again, not before.

Sorry RD, I'll stick with the word of God.. and there it teaches plainly that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel of our salvation, and AFTER we believed, that God sealed us with the Holy Spirit... and of course this aligns perfectly with the fact that God chose us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the TRUTH..

 

[RoadDebris]

That belief is an effect of your false assumptions, Even (IMO).

 

[Drew]

And in that belief you make man's desire the linchpin of salvation. That is antithetical to what the Holy Spirit, through Paul, says in Romans 9:16. You make the Bible to contradict itself.

I think you are mistaken about Romans 9:16, but I will make my argument about that text in another post. First, let me address your "linchpin" argument.

When someone makes the argument that "if its all God's grace, then there can be no human 'co-operation', no matter how miniscule", I think that the very concept of "grace" is being abused. A hard rigid mathematical, binary, kind of mind-set is brought to what, I suggest, is actually a concept which is actually much more fluid and ambiguous.

What I am trying to say is this: the way that the term "grace" is sometimes used, at least in english western cultures, indeed allows for some degree of co-operation. We would, I suggest, affirm that the giving of any gift, even if freely and wilfully accepted is, in fact, still seen to fall under the concept of "grace".

Unlike mathematical concepts, linguistic concepts often have a relatively broad “semantic range†(range of possible meanings). In the case of the concept of “graceâ€, that range includes, at one end, the notion that there can be no co-operation on the part of the one who receives grace. Fine.

But let’s not pretend that the range of possible meanings of “grace†excludes the more complicated case where the recipient of grace does indeed play some very limited role. We use the word “grace†in this more complicated mode all the time in everyday life.

At the risk of seeming cynical, I will assert that the Calvinist frequently simply “lays claim†to a specific part of the semantic range of the concept and works from there, their arguments building on and leveraging this particular, selective, interpretation on what the term “grace†actually means.

If you commit to the position that the concept “graceâ€, by its very definition, rules out human co-operation, then of course the Calvinist position is easily established. But we all know that language is more sophisticated, subtle, and ambiguous than that. It is really beyond question that the word “grace†has an effective range of meanings that include senses in which the recipient of grace actually participates in some sense.

And an exactly analogous argument applies in respect to the concept of sovereignty.

 

[Eventide]

That belief is an effect of your false assumptions, Even (IMO).

So believing what God says in His word is effectual in making false presumptions.. is that what you're saying here..?

What False Presumptions are you talking about here..? Just more blanket statements without any support..?

 

[John Zain]

“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me”------------------------------------------- John 6:37
“of all He has given to Me I should lose nothing” ------------------------------------------- John 6:39
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” ------------------- John 6:44
“Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” --- John 6:45
“no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father”------------- John 6:65
“My sheep hear My voice … My Father, who has given them to Me” -------------------- John 10:29
“eternal life to as many as You have given to Him” ---------------------------------------- John 17:2
“those whom You have given (to) Me” -------------------------------------------------------- John 17:9
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave (to) Me …” ------------------------------ John 17:24
“Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted” ----------- Matthew 15:13

 

[Jennie]

Reformed Theology teaches that people don't choose God until they are born again. When someone accepts the truth, repents, is baptised, and begins to live a righteous life they are doing so because they are saved, not so they can become saved or to ensure that salvation.

You have spoken well RD!!

 

[Sam21]

If God put the salvation of every human being as his top priority then all men would be saved.

You propose a scenario constructed by your own imagination....why would you suppose something, that contradicts the reality of the bible. God set out to bring over two million people out of Egypt into the promised land and only TWO made it of the original adults,since it was a top priorty of God for all those folks to make it into the promised land then why did they NOT make it...da duh...they did not believe God and follow His instructions!!! God did not make robots, God made people with the freedom to chose to follow God or to follow something else.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus makes reference to Election :

Jn 6:37

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jn 10:27-29

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The words given or gave to Christ by the Father, speaks to the Fathers choice in election.

They are a chosen generation that is given to Him as per 1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The word generation is the greek word genos and means:

kindred

offspring

family

stock, tribe, nation

i.e. nationality or descent from a particular people

the aggregate of many individuals of the same nature, kind, sort

A Chosen aggregate of many individuals

Heb 2:13

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

And so Peter says they are a chosen generation ! The word Chosen means:

picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

So, in all three of the above verses where Jesus speaks of being given some by Father, He is referring to Election, a Chosen seed, or offspring in Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In Lk 10:20



Lk 10:20

20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jesus was teaching election with this statement, that certain names are written in heaven.

I believe this means their names were written from the foundation of the world, in the Lambs book of life.

Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Their names indicate they are of God's particular election. God knows His own, Jesus knows His own. These shall never hear these words Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ye have not Chosen me but I have Chosen you !

The Lord Jesus Christ taught Election when the night preceding His Death He said to His disciples [excluding judas who was not at this time among them having gone to betray Him] Jesus said these words Jn 15:16

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The word chosen here is the greek word eklegomai and it means:

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

b) choosing one for an office

of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (James 2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only

And it is a middle voice verb denoting choosing for oneself.

This choice of them was more than just for a office, but to bear spiritual fruit, which means salvation is involved, and its noteworthy that at this time judas the traitor, who was also chosen for the office, was not among them when Jesus made this statement, because judas was not chosen to bear fruit which involves salvation

Chosen in order that they may bring forth fruit. Now what is The Fruit Jesus is speaking of in this connection ? The word fruit is the greek word karpos and it means:

that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

to gather fruit (i.e. a reaped harvest) into life eternal (as into a granary), is used in fig. discourse of those who by their labours have fitted souls to obtain eternal life

Jn 4:34-36

34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Fruit here means souls that are turned from error and embrace Christ through the Gospel Ministry as say Acts 26:17-18

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So they were Chosen Laborers in the vineyard of other Chosen Souls Lk 10:1-2

1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

So Jesus taught Election unto Salvation here in Jn 15:15, If He chose them to bear fruit, the converting of souls. Only saved men receive such a honor and call. And the whole Church, body of Christ, was Chosen for One another in the cause of Christ.

 

[Eventide]

Jesus certainly taught election.. that HE IS the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE.. that no man comes to the Father except through HIM.. or that if we don't believe that He is the Messiah, that we will died in our sins.. or that if WE shall seek to save OUR LIFE that we shall lose it, and that if we lose it for HIM and the GOSPEL that we shall save it..

Sounds pretty simple to me.. and of course He is the Elect, the One in whom the Father delights..

Where people go astray is in buying into the false doctrine that THEY are the elect.. as if it's Christ AND them.. although the only reason anyone is the elect is because they are IN CHRIST, the one who is the elect..

Most will continue believing that they are the elect along with Christ.. as if God chose Christ and them.. rather than Christ in them.

 

[childeye]

God did not make robots, God made people with the freedom to chose to follow God or to follow something else.

To sin is not freedom. God is not the Father of sin, Satan is. Respectfully, since a man is deceived into following anyone other than God it is disingenous to imply that those who are pointing out deception are calling men robots.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus Taught the Tulip in Just Two verses at one time ! Jn 6:37,40

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here He taught Personal Election [ Those the Father gave to Him vs37], He taught the effectual call or irresistible grace [ they shall come to Him vs 37] and He taught Eternal Preservation for a remnant of mankind [ They shall not be cast out vs37 and they will be raised up in the Last day vs 40] Even the inability of the elect to come without a Sovereign operation of God the Holy , that is the Drawing of the Father [ Jn 6:44] which constitutes the coming to Christ in vs 37 as well.

Jn 6:37,44

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now Jesus says that he that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not is liken unto a foolish man that built his house on sand ! Matt 7:26

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The doing them not merely means they after hearing them, did not believe them, they did not obey the Gospel 2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus taught human inability to believe in Him !

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In the scripture and by the Mouth of God Incarnate, it is declared mans inability to believe on Christ for Salvation ! Jn 6:65

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

To come to Christ is another form of saying believing on Him !

Phil 1:29

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It is not until God draws the heart of man by His Gift of Grace, that he can and will believe, so True Believers believe only by Grace Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Proud men boast of their so called freewill and ability to believe, in direct opposition to what Christ Teaches !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You propose a scenario constructed by your own imagination....why would you suppose something, that contradicts the reality of the bible. God set out to bring over two million people out of Egypt into the promised land and only TWO made it of the original adults,since it was a top priorty of God for all those folks to make it into the promised land then why did they NOT make it...da duh...they did not believe God and follow His instructions!!! God did not make robots, God made people with the freedom to chose to follow God or to follow something else.

AMEN AND AMEN!!!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Coming and Believing are the same thing ! - Today, 12:24 PM

It should go without saying that coming to Christ is but another way of saying to believe on Christ, and this coming is not even possible with man, born of a woman, born out of adam. " No man can come to me" We as men born of adam do not have the ability to believe in Christ ! Why ? Rom 8:7

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Now the word law here as in the Law of God is the greek word nomos and means:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

of any law whatsoever

a precept or injunction

Any command whatsover of God is a Law or an injunction

Now, to believe on Christ the Son of God is a command of God 1 Jn 3:22-23

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now, Paul says that the carnal mind is enmity against God, and is not subject to the Law or Command of God. This word subject is the greek word hypotassō and means:


to arrange under, to subordinate

2) to subject, put in subjection

3) to subject one's self, obey

4) to submit to one's control

5) to yield to one's admonition or advice

6) to obey, be subject

So it does not obey or submit to the command of God !

Thats exactly what in essence Jesus is saying, no man by nature comes to me..

The carnal mind just means those born of the flesh as in Jn 3:6 its the same word sarx

So those who teach that man born of a woman only can believe on Jesus Christ[for Salvation] 1 Jn 3:23, be it known that you are calling both Christ and the inspired Paul a Liar..

Believing on Christ is a command of God ! 1 Jn 3:23

 

[HisSheep]

Jesus taught human inability to believe in Him !

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Proud men boast of their so called freewill and ability to believe, in direct opposition to what Christ Teaches !

Right on, Savedbygrace57! I want to punctuate this by mentioning that the Greek word tranlsated "draws" in John 6:44 is the same word as "drags"... Got that from Warren Wiersbe this week (thursday's show) on Songtime USA.

-HisSheep