Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[wavy]

So eternal life is just a flashlight being turned on into the night, and then shut off. Another ridiculous analogy with absolutely no hint of being close to the truth of the Word of God.

This was a good point. But I do believe the fire is eternal. Why? Because satan and his angels are in it forever. I don't believe humans are.

 

[Gary]

Matthew 25:46

"and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal".

Now there we have Jesus say it once again in very plain unambiguous language. And by the way, that Greek word there translated eternal [aionios], is the the exact same word there translated everlasting [aionios]. And so if these Theologians are going to wrest God's Word here to mean that in the Greek the punishment is really temporary, then they'll also have to open the huge can-o-worms and make it say there our life everlasting is temporary also. Because they're the exact same Greek word in the exact same application. As any faithful student of the Bible knows, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. But these are the problems which man gets into when He doesn't want to keep God's Word faithfully and wants to judge by what "seems" right in his own eyes. But to abandon counsel of God to believe whatever we think is good is the error of the ages.

Source: -here-

 

[destiny]

Destiny, thanks for seeing through the common tactics that we are all sometimes guilty of resorting to when people are debating. I think that we are not in agreement on this particular topic, which is not the first time for us, but I am always very blessed by your comments. You have made me search my heart's motive, and ask God to reveal it to me on more than one occasion.

Lovely, I think you might have misunderstood me but thats understandable with all thats going on here. I personally think debates bring out the worst in me, and I am convicted when I enter into the fray.
I'm gonna go for now, but I wanted you to know I wasn't correcting you in that post, I think you might have read it wrong because I actually am in agreement with you.
Anyways, i'm out of here....Be blessed!

 

[antitox]

Matthew 25:46

"and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal".

Now there we have Jesus say it once again in very plain unambiguous language. And by the way, that Greek word there translated eternal [aionios], is the the exact same word there translated everlasting [aionios]. And so if these Theologians are going to wrest God's Word here to mean that in the Greek the punishment is really temporary, then they'll also have to open the huge can-o-worms and make it say there our life everlasting is temporary also. Because they're the exact same Greek word in the exact same application. As any faithful student of the Bible knows, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. But these are the problems which man gets into when He doesn't want to keep God's Word faithfully and wants to judge by what "seems" right in his own eyes. But to abandon counsel of God to believe whatever we think is good is the error of the ages.

Source: -here-

This answer is probably the best example yet of correct understanding of text in its usage.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Matthew 25:46

"and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal".

Now there we have Jesus say it once again in very plain unambiguous language. And by the way, that Greek word there translated eternal [aionios], is the the exact same word there translated everlasting [aionios]. And so if these Theologians are going to wrest God's Word here to mean that in the Greek the punishment is really temporary, then they'll also have to open the huge can-o-worms and make it say there our life everlasting is temporary also. Because they're the exact same Greek word in the exact same application. As any faithful student of the Bible knows, inconsistency is the hallmark of error. But these are the problems which man gets into when He doesn't want to keep God's Word faithfully and wants to judge by what "seems" right in his own eyes. But to abandon counsel of God to believe whatever we think is good is the error of the ages.

Source: -here-

Gary, no one is saying that 'everlasting' in one instance doesn't mean the same as the other. You are right, the same Greek word is used for both. But, it isn't 'everlasting' that is the problem here. Everlasting life means everlasting life. But, everlasting death also means everlasting death. One will live forever, one will die forever.

As for eternal punishment, it's the same thing. One goes on to receive eternal reward as in life everlasting. One goes on to receive eternal punishment as in death everlasting. The reward in and of itself is not everlasting but eternal life is. The punishment in and of itself is not everlasting but eternal death is. This is the best and the simplest way I know to explain this.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

My point for Luke 16 was being in Torment, and the fact that the guy, could still see, feel, and talk, and reason. Aren't parables a heavenly illustration of an earthly truth. The parables of Jesus anyway.

Take a look at this

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html

 

[Gary]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html[/url][/quote:f8cc7]

http://www.tentmaker.org/

This is a UR site and I suspect probably in violation of the rules below:

The opportunity was given to the UR supporters for a second time when discussions re-opened, so that they might produce evidence that universal reconciliation can be taken seriously. However, the unanswered questions have only been evaded and have led to more unanswered questions. Their distortion of scripture has been made readily apparent. They have take verses out of context, even ignoring key words within those verses that give them the very meaning that God intended. By doing so, they are making a mockery of what God's Word says. They have made it clear, that they deny the Word of God as Whole.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

As a result, the disruption that they've caused will no longer be tolerated. UR is a false doctrine and it will be treated as such. Therefore, there will be no promoting of it or debating it any longer. It has been exposed for what it is and it's being used by Satan now to cause distraction from discussing the Truth's of God's Word. UR doctrine is now banned permanently.

Lets all get back to discussing topics that are beneficial & essential
to grow in the Word of God.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=13702

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Well, I don't see it as a violation as I do not plan on debating the subject. I posted a differing view of the topic.


And if you see it as a violation you might to p.m. Vic and Judy.

 

[Vic C.]

I often use L.Ray Smith's site to support my beliefs in a Pre_wrath rapture. I do however add a disclaimer to my posts letting people know he is UR, so there will be no surprises if someone goes beyond the link I provide. As long as LD's link isn't discussing UR, I will let it stand, in my own defense. ;-)

 

[Gary]

The article blantantly promotes UR.

... And if it were not for this, she declared that she should have no doubt of the truth of the doctrine of a world's salvation.

and the article ends like this:

ONE OF THE MAIN PILLARS IN THE TEMPLE OF PARTIALISM, IS THEREFORE SHAKEN AND REMOVED!

If that is not promoting UR, then what is??

:-? :-?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I often use L.Ray Smith's site to support my beliefs in a Pre_wrath rapture. I do however add a disclaimer to my posts letting people know he is UR, so there will be no surprises if someone goes beyond the link I provide. As long as LD's link isn't discussing UR, I will let it stand, in my own defense. ;-)

The purpose of my posting the link was an alternate view of the parable of the rich man and lazarus. I appreciate you chiming in Vic. As you know, I do hold to a type of UR doctrine but I do not debate it here as it is against the rules.

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, the two of you posted on top of each other.

Gary, all you had to do was support your claim, which you did with those quoted outakes.

LD, maybe this was an oversight and you didn't see the two quotes Gary supplied. Nonetheless, it does support UR. Sorry. :-?

 

[Gary]

The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man
(An Exposition of Luke 16:19-31)
by Tony Warren

http://members.aol.com/twarren14/lazarus.html

Is This a Parable or a True Story?

The Greek word parable [parabole], means a similitude, or something which is in comparison, like unto something else. In other words, a story of one thing which is an analogy of something else. Often seen as a narrative in symbolism, a story from the human perspective which has a deeper spiritual meaning (conveying a moral), in comparison to this symbolism. The deeper spiritual truth in this parable of Luke chapter 16, is the nation of Israel. We will examine this conclusion in the second part of this study.

The questions that many Christians wrestle with concerning the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, are, "can this be an actual event, does hell exist now, and if this is indeed a parable, why does Jesus speak of it in the present tense?" These are some legitimate questions which have stumped many Christians, and confused many others. But the answers are found in God's Word only as we come to the realization that one scripture cannot contradict another scripture. Both are absolutely true, and thus must be reconciled. The harmony of the matter will be found in the Spirit of God, through the diligent comparing of scripture with scripture, and the spiritual with the spiritual, in the Biblical and profitable manner of determining doctrine.

Read on:
http://members.aol.com/twarren14/lazarus.html

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Ok, the two of you posted on top of each other.

Gary, all you had to do was support your claim, which you did with those quoted outakes.

LD, maybe this was an oversight and you didn't see the two quotes Gary supplied. Nonetheless, it does support UR. Sorry. :-?

So be it. Remove away.

Happy Gary?

 

[Solo]

[quote="Lyric's Dad":d6920]

The everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that Jesus teaches in scripture is not metaphorical language. He uses the same word for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as he uses in speaking of eternal life. Twist and turn the scripture all that you want, and you will continue to propagate a doctrine of devils as prophesied as happening in the latter times, to those that need to hear the truth.

Eternal fire does not mean eternal punishment. If I have a flashlight and point it into the sky, the light will travel forward forever. That does not mean the flashlight is always left on.

I don't have to worry about eternal torment because of being born again, but those of you who don't believe in the security of the believer or have friends and family that are not saved must come up with a ploy to ease and comfort your souls with some grandiose form of no punishment that goes against the teaching of our Lord and Savior because of your lack of faith in him knowing best.

LOL!
[quote:d6920]
Please don't twist our Lord and Saviors Words to fit you diabolical scheme against the truth of God.

Can we dispense with the drama?

So eternal life is just a flashlight being turned on into the night, and then shut off. Another ridiculous analogy with absolutely no hint of being close to the truth of the Word of God.[/quote:d6920]I expected nothing more. And are we talking about your version of the Word of God or the truth?[/quote:d6920]
Either one, they are both the same.

 

[guibox]

I have to step up in LD's defense. Whether his link promotes UR or not doesn't mean that there isn't any validity to disparaging the erroneous view of the Rich man and Lazarus.

If it is showing it is wrong BECAUSE of the UR doctrine, that is one thing. But if it clearly shows the problems with the doctrine without referring to it, what is the big issue?

There is a UR website called 'what-the-hell-is-hell' or something that attacks and refutes the traditional view without having the reader have to accept URism to do so.

L.R Smith is a UR but he decimates the traditional view of this parable without needing UR ism to do so.

People will believe whatever they want to believe no matter the evidence. The few posters here who have commented on other threads dealing with sound biblical refutation on the matter in other threads prove that over and over and over.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Amen Quibox.

The topic seems to be so very threatening to those who don't have a clear answer to it.

Oh well, at least I know they too will not spend eternity in hell.... :D

 

[Vic C.]

So be it. Remove away.

I have to step up in LD's defense. Whether his link promotes UR or not doesn't mean that there isn't any validity to disparaging the erroneous view of the Rich man and Lazarus.

If it is showing it is wrong BECAUSE of the UR doctrine, that is one thing. But if it clearly shows the problems with the doctrine without referring to it, what is the big issue?...

No issue at all. Gary brought it to light, it was acknowledged but the post remains. I didn't delete it; I wrote it off as an oversight, so lets continue with the topic. Thanks.

Vic

 

[Vic C.]

... so lets continue with the topic. Thanks.

Vic

I meant it. :-?

 

[Relic]

... so lets continue with the topic. Thanks.

I meant it.

Okay,

bumping Solo's profound post!

As much as man would like to play God, man's ways are finite and man's thoughts are limited compared to the ways and truths of God almighty. What God says is so, inspite of man's thoughts and ways.

• 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:6-9

The dead are stirred in hell to welcome their father as he is also cast into the destruction of hell. Revelation calls this death the second death which occurs to the wicked after the First resurrection. All who die the second death will experience their existence with their father whom they chose in the pit. God's Word is true.

• 1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. 2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. 3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
  
  4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
  
  24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? 28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden. 29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. 31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. 32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. Isaiah 14:1-32

The fire that we see on this earth will consume the physical, but the fire of God will torment those that are vile and wicked, and have chosen their fate to be outside of God's rest. There is no rest for the wicked. There is only separation in a place of sorrow and pain.

I think Solo's previous post just about says it all. :D

The fire that we see on this earth will consume the physical, but the fire of God will torment those that are vile and wicked, and have chosen their fate to be outside of God's rest. There is no rest for the wicked. There is only separation in a place of sorrow and pain.

There is no rest for the wicked. Any sinner knows that! :roll: :-D


REPENT! :bday:





:smt109
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