Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[Judy]

So you now are going to compare the fire of God's love and mercy and the way in which He came to Moses with some eternal torment? Strange.

I don't remember any of the above people screaming in pain and torment. The comparison doesn't work.

Lyric's Dad, I think you missed the point that Solo was making... :-?

 

[Solo]

As much as man would like to play God, man's ways are finite and man's thoughts are limited compared to the ways and truths of God almighty. What God says is so, inspite of man's thoughts and ways.

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:6-9

The dead are stirred in hell to welcome their father as he is also cast into the destruction of hell. Revelation calls this death the second death which occurs to the wicked after the First resurrection. All who die the second death will experience their existence with their father whom they chose in the pit. God's Word is true.

1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. 2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. 3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? 28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden. 29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. 31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. 32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. Isaiah 14:1-32

The fire that we see on this earth will consume the physical, but the fire of God will torment those that are vile and wicked, and have chosen their fate to be outside of God's rest. There is no rest for the wicked. There is only separation in a place of sorrow and pain.

 

[lovely]

Solo,

You are correct, in my opinion, the language is literal.

Destiny, thanks for seeing through the common tactics that we are all sometimes guilty of resorting to when people are debating. I think that we are not in agreement on this particular topic, which is not the first time for us, but I am always very blessed by your comments. You have made me search my heart's motive, and ask God to reveal it to me on more than one occasion.

I thought Drew brought up a good point about God being love, and that Hell is not consistant with that. I wanted to ask him a question. Drew, I am not clear about what you believe, or maybe you do not know yourself yet, but are you leaning towards a purgatory? And do you believe in a final Hell after that form of punishment where those people have an opportunity to be restored? Would this be more loving? And do you not see our time here on earth as a time of training, and discipline, that guides us to the path of Christ? And finally, do you see the language of Scripture concerning this topic as literal?

And, guibox, I wanted to ask you about the God being love part too. You believe in annilhilation, I think. (please, correct me if I am mistaken) So, do you think it is more loving for God to take someone out of exsistance completely, rather than their consequence of spending an eternity in Hell? Wouldn't He be taking back the soul that He created, and the gift of life He has given them? Or, do you not believe that all men are eternal beings? Wasn't the breath of God being given to us signifying that we are eternal from that point forward?

Please do not be offended by my questions, or take them as snide. I am just trying to understand fully the mindset of others, and follow this particular discussion to it's conclusion in an edifying manner. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[guibox]

And, guibox, I wanted to ask you about the God being love part too. You believe in annilhilation, I think. (please, correct me if I am mistaken) So, do you think it is more loving for God to take someone out of exsistance completely, rather than their consequence of spending an eternity in Hell? Wouldn't He be taking back the soul that He created, and the gift of life He has given them? Or, do you not believe that all men are eternal beings? Wasn't the breath of God being given to us signifying that we are eternal from that point forward?

Please do not be offended by my questions, or take them as snide. I am just trying to understand fully the mindset of others, and follow this particular discussion to it's conclusion in an edifying manner. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free. The Lord bless all of you.

No offense taken, lovely. I appreciate you wanting to understand more. That is more than I can say for those who keep chanting the same mantra without truly looking at how illogical it is. It is a shame that Solo and others have ignored my last post where I try to show how some of these texts are explained. Instead they skip over it to keep debating what I feel I refuted.

I guess that tells me how my exegetical post coming up will be treated. Part of me wonders why I bother.

Anyway, you asked:

So, do you think it is more loving for God to take someone out of exsistance completely, rather than their consequence of spending an eternity in Hell?

I'm still mistified why people seem to think an eternal non-existence is worse than suffering for trillions of years in torment. I just can't wrap my brain around this way of thinking. However, salvation history tells us this. We were once immortal, dependant on the Lord. Man sinned and that relatioship was broken. Man was destined to die eternally for the wages of sin is death. Christ came to save man from their sins and the penalty of death. He rose from the dead, conquereing death for the believer and promised that He would destroy this sinful world and make things new.

So where does the wicked fit in?

Well, they don't know the Lord and still suffer the wages of sin which is death because they 'have not believed on the Lord Jesus Christ'. Hence they are 'yet in their sins' and will 'perish' with the world.

God tries to save them from the death and destruction of the world. He loves them enough to respect their decision to be doomed.

Then God destroys the earth and the heavens by fire and 'all the works therein (including the wicked) shall be burnt up' (2 Peter 3:10). The lake of fire spoken of in Revelation 14 and 20 is merely a means to an end. The end is the 'second death'.

A word search and comparison in the Greek will show that the terms 'death' 'perishing' and 'destruction' in relation to the wicked mean exactly that!

FINALITY!

Then God can wipe the tears from the eyes where there will be no more suffering, pain or death for 'the former things have passed away'. Sinners are part of these 'former things'. The cosmic paradise of God would be marred from day one if sinners and sin were in existence and that saints new their loved ones were suffering that very moment.

No, God wants to eradicate sin so it's mark is left nowhere in the universe.

 

[Drew]

I guess that tells me how my exegetical post coming up will be treated. Part of me wonders why I bother.

I, for one, am looking forward to your post. I understand your implied skepticism about this forum. I try to remember that there are some who are open to new ideas. My problem with eternal punishment has always been the "how can we reconcile it with love" problem. I am interested in your more specifically Biblical arguments. Trust me, your post will indeed be read with great interest.

 

[Windozer]

No, God wants to eradicate sin so it's mark is left nowhere in the universe.

No wonder people ignore your posts with comments like that with no scriptural support. I do not believe you.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

The everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that Jesus teaches in scripture is not metaphorical language. He uses the same word for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as he uses in speaking of eternal life. Twist and turn the scripture all that you want, and you will continue to propagate a doctrine of devils as prophesied as happening in the latter times, to those that need to hear the truth.

Eternal fire does not mean eternal punishment. If I have a flashlight and point it into the sky, the light will travel forward forever. That does not mean the flashlight is always left on.

I don't have to worry about eternal torment because of being born again, but those of you who don't believe in the security of the believer or have friends and family that are not saved must come up with a ploy to ease and comfort your souls with some grandiose form of no punishment that goes against the teaching of our Lord and Savior because of your lack of faith in him knowing best.

LOL!

Please don't twist our Lord and Saviors Words to fit you diabolical scheme against the truth of God.

Can we dispense with the drama?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

So you now are going to compare the fire of God's love and mercy and the way in which He came to Moses with some eternal torment? Strange.

I don't remember any of the above people screaming in pain and torment. The comparison doesn't work.

Lyric's Dad, I think you missed the point that Solo was making... :-?

I usually do. :-D

 

[lovely]

Thanks, guibox, I am going to look at your Scriptures. I will get back to you. The Lord bless you.

 

[Drew]

I think that eternal punishment is seen as compatible with a loving God largely because people are either unwilling or unable to do the analytical work of trying to actually reconcile these 2 doctrines. One cannot simply declare that 2 concepts are somehow compatible if it turns out that they are "analytically inconsistent" - they contradict one another in virtue of the very content of the concepts. Such is the case here, I think.

One can only push the "man cannot understand the ways of God argument" so far. This argument has some truth to it, but it is abused when we are asked to believe wildly illogical and obviously self-contradictory things.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I am not clear about what you believe, or maybe you do not know yourself yet, but are you leaning towards a purgatory? And do you believe in a final Hell after that form of punishment where those people have an opportunity to be restored? Would this be more loving? And do you not see our time here on earth as a time of training, and discipline, that guides us to the path of Christ? And finally, do you see the language of Scripture concerning this topic as literal?

Thanks for the questions.

I used to have what I will call an "unexamined" acceptance of the eternal hell position. I now think such a position is non workable. So in a sense, I am formulating a new position. My best shot at stating my present beliefs: the unsaved will ultimately be annihilated after limited punishment. I am inclined to not believe in a post-death opportunity for reconciliation to God (and if I did, I would not be allowed to bring up the topic here anyway). I do see "our time here on earth as a time of training, and discipline, that guides us to the path of Christ". Finally, I think that the words of Scripture are often non-literal (I do not believe in "creationism" in the conventional sense, for example).

I'll bet dollars to donuts that many on both sides of this issue have not the "real work" of educating themselves about the Scriptures and doing serious study of this matter. There is probably a lot of "unexamined acceptance" going around. I have been in this boat myself, but would like to think that I am finally coming to a point where I look at things more seriously.

 

[Lewis]

Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And I guess this illustration of a literal truth, don't get it with you guy's ether. Look at verses 23 and 28, notice the word (Torment). Have some of you went blind. Stevie Wonder could see the truth here, in this illustration by our Lord.

 

[guibox]

And I guess this illustration of a literal truth, don't get it with you guy's ether. Look at verses 23 and 28, notice the word (Torment). Have some of you went blind. Stevie Wonder could see the truth here, in this illustration by our Lord.

We have addressed this topic to the umpteenth degree, Lewis.

However, your ultimate problem is that Luke 16 is not talking about the gehenna fires of Revelation 20 but Hades at death. The highly metaphorical language used in this passage along with the fact that nowhere else in the scripture (by analogy or the other 10 uses of 'hades' in the NT) are the concepts of this parable supported.

This is the ultimate confusion. People look at the English 'hell' and then formulate all their doctrines based on it. The problem is that there are 3 different words with four different meanings and contexts.

People would rather ignore it and formulate their own erroneous doctrine based on this amalgamation of the three hells and then ignore the rest of scripture to formulate their theology.

 

[guibox]

I guess that tells me how my exegetical post coming up will be treated. Part of me wonders why I bother.

I, for one, am looking forward to your post. I understand your implied skepticism about this forum. I try to remember that there are some who are open to new ideas. My problem with eternal punishment has always been the "how can we reconcile it with love" problem. I am interested in your more specifically Biblical arguments. Trust me, your post will indeed be read with great interest.

Here we go in the Apologetics and Theology Forum. Enjoy and God bless! 8-)

Hellfire Texts

 

[Relic]

No, God wants to eradicate sin so it's mark is left nowhere in the universe.

No wonder people ignore your posts with comments like that with no scriptural support. I do not believe you.

Windozer,
Don't you wonder about people ignoring your posts? :-?
Why would you even make such a mean spirited comment about
such a true statement. :

I happen to be one person who didn't ignore what
quibox said in this situation. I happen to agree with quibox on that
specific point, because there is no sign of sin in heaven, and
that is proof of sin which has been eradicated.

John 1:29
The next day John seethe Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold
the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Sounds like eradicated sin to me.

John 8:34-35
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever
committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son
abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye
shall be free indeed.


Free from sin. Sounds like eradicated sin to me.

Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Sounds like eradicated sin to me.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of
sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve
sin.

Sounds like eradicated sin to me.

Romans 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Sounds like eradicated sin to me.

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of
righteousness.

Sounds like eradicated sin to me.

Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God
, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Sounds like eradicated sin to me.


To be freed "from" something is to be eradicated "away from" it, not
toward it. We act ON the HOLY word. We don't ignore it and not act on it!
We are then in accordance to the Holy Word, not against it. We are a
word in process for the everlasting. If a person continually sins
without respect to giving their will over to repentance, turning "away
from" it, then what does that prove? It only proves they are unrepentant
and are not serious in their walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. We fall, but
we always get right back up and work towards the everlasting covenant promise!
The unrepentant person is not seriously seeking to change.
There is the difference between those who are left in their torment,
everlasting, and those who are repentant and are freed from the
bonds of hellish torment. They are not forever wallowing in the
torment of sin.
They have followed Jesus, accepted his means of salvation, and are freed
from sin! Their victory is everlasting.


There are so many more scriptures to show that God wants to eradicate
sin that could be presented here, These scriptures are a means to give
us a WAY to be Free from sin through our LORD Jesus Christ (He
Lords over us, meaning we are servants to his HOLY WILL, not our own
will. ) Thereby, we are in the process of eradicating sin from out of
our lives, for the everlasting.



Yep! With Jesus all things, when we live according to the HOLY Word of
God IS possible! We can live without sin controlling us! And we can
live free from sin! To Go( act on it! ) and SIN NO MORE.
Therefore, we live, sin free, being IN the Holy spirit of Christ Jesus, Our
perfect example, to follow.


Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life! :D


2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth
will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with
the brightness of his coming:


Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life! :D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it
in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto
sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from
the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now
they have no cloke for their sin.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of
righteousness, and of judgment:

 

[Relic]

The everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that Jesus teaches in scripture is not metaphorical language. He uses the same word for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as he uses in speaking of eternal life. Twist and turn the scripture all that you want, and you will continue to propagate a doctrine of devils as prophesied as happening in the latter times, to those that need to hear the truth.

Eternal fire does not mean eternal punishment. If I have a flashlight and point it into the sky, the light will travel forward forever. That does not mean the flashlight is always left on.

And have you considered the fact the light travels and how long it takes for even the light of one star to reach us?

That meaning, the light appears to be always on. It is an everlasting imprint which travels through time. And if that light happens to go out, then the time frame in which that instance occured is still in motion in time, in that the darkness then becomes evident progressively. It goes well beyond the scope of our tiny planet earth.

It travels infinitely in time. as does the markings of our unrepentant sin, hence, the torment of sin everlasting. Unless we repent, the there is not perishing. For all things must die in order for the transformation to take place. It's all in the lessons of the seed, the prunning of the vine, the unbearing of fruit. A thing must either be cut off or die in order for a the new to manifest.


.

.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And I guess this illustration of a literal truth, don't get it with you guy's ether. Look at verses 23 and 28, notice the word (Torment). Have some of you went blind. Stevie Wonder could see the truth here, in this illustration by our Lord.

Here we go again with this PARABLE! Okay, if we are going to take that part as a literal teaching of what happens to the dead then the following is also some things we need to take literally;

It is not faith in Jesus that saves but being poor.

Being rich automatically takes you to hell.

You don't go to heaven, you go to Abrahams bosom.

Jesus is not there.

You need to follow the law and the prophets, not Jesus to be saved.

That hell and abrahams bosom are right next door and the thought of our having every tear wiped away is wrong as we will be watching our loved ones burned forever.

That it is Abraham we should cry to for mercy.

and on and on and on..............




This was a parable and one that is clearly seen that way unless you try and develop your theology around a certain thought and try and use this parable to back it up.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

The everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that Jesus teaches in scripture is not metaphorical language. He uses the same word for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as he uses in speaking of eternal life. Twist and turn the scripture all that you want, and you will continue to propagate a doctrine of devils as prophesied as happening in the latter times, to those that need to hear the truth.

Eternal fire does not mean eternal punishment. If I have a flashlight and point it into the sky, the light will travel forward forever. That does not mean the flashlight is always left on.

And have you considered the fact the light travels and how long it takes for even the light of one star to reach us?

That meaning, the light appears to be always on. It is an everlasting imprint which travels through time. And if that light happens to go out, then the time frame in which that instance occured is still in motion in time, in that the darkness then becomes evident progressively. It goes well beyond the scope of our tiny planet earth.

It travels infinitely in time. as does the markings of our unrepentant sin, hence, the torment of sin everlasting. Unless we repent, the there is not perishing. For all things must die in order for the transformation to take place. It's all in the lessons of the seed, the prunning of the vine, the unbearing of fruit. A thing must either be cut off or die in order for a the new to manifest.


.

.

Yeah, um, okay, sure.

 

[Lewis]

My point for Luke 16 was being in Torment, and the fact that the guy, could still see, feel, and talk, and reason. Aren't parables a heavenly illustration of an earthly truth. The parables of Jesus anyway.

 

[Solo]

The everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that Jesus teaches in scripture is not metaphorical language. He uses the same word for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as he uses in speaking of eternal life. Twist and turn the scripture all that you want, and you will continue to propagate a doctrine of devils as prophesied as happening in the latter times, to those that need to hear the truth.

Eternal fire does not mean eternal punishment. If I have a flashlight and point it into the sky, the light will travel forward forever. That does not mean the flashlight is always left on.

I don't have to worry about eternal torment because of being born again, but those of you who don't believe in the security of the believer or have friends and family that are not saved must come up with a ploy to ease and comfort your souls with some grandiose form of no punishment that goes against the teaching of our Lord and Savior because of your lack of faith in him knowing best.

LOL!
[quote:37d7f]
Please don't twist our Lord and Saviors Words to fit you diabolical scheme against the truth of God.

Can we dispense with the drama?[/quote:37d7f]
So eternal life is just a flashlight being turned on into the night, and then shut off. Another ridiculous analogy with absolutely no hint of being close to the truth of the Word of God.