Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[Relic]

actually, I think what needs to be made clear is the definitions of


forever

everlasting

eternal

---

perish

death

torment



It appears there is a mixture of understanding amongst many here.

References to scripture ARE ALLOWED and very much encouraged! :D

It would be interesting to see people post their definitions of each word without any other comments, just the definitions. And then see if the differences can be settled in accordance to the biblical teachings of those terms.


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[Vic C.]

It appears there is a mixture of understanding amongst many here.

References to scripture ARE ALLOWED and very much encouraged!

It would be interesting to see people post their definitions of each word without any other comments, just the definitions. And then see if the differences can be settled in accordance to the biblical teachings of those terms.

Ah, therein lies the problem. Each one of us can go to the Greek and come up with what we want it to say. :-? Watch...

(and before one jumps to the colclusion I am breaking any rules with the quote below, I will provide the link to the whole article)

A look at the word "aionion"

Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.

To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.

The truth is, they are right....

http://www.carm.org/uni/aionion.htm

I paraphrased the above in another thread in an effort to generate more dialogue on this subject.

 

[Relic]

So then, are we at a stale mate here,
and this whole topic is going to be left as a
dangling participal in this stage of our existence
in relation to definition of terms, for some people?
:smt017 :smt102


Brings to mind the reason
why God confounded the laguages of man
after they built tower of Babel. :o

Piza anyone? :P

Oh, never mind.
Just have a heavenly slice of a pizza,
and call it a day! :-D

:-D


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[Vic C.]

To quote a popular catchphrase from a Capital 1 commercial here on the East Coast...

"What's in your wallet?" :


:smt102

 

[Relic]

.

What's that saying.....?

Oh, yeah! I remember.

• Matthew 13:
  24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of
  heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But
  while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the
  wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up,
  and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants
  of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good
  seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them,
  An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that
  we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up
  the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both
  grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will
  say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in
  bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
  

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[Relic]

To quote a popular catchphrase from a Capital 1 commercial here on the East Coast...

"What's in your wallet?" :


:smt102

I hope I have enough to buy a slice of pizza! :D


I might have to settle for popcorn until the harvest

:


Separating all the wheat from the chaff ....


sure makes a person hungry you know! :-?


:smt115







Here chicky chicky! :smt117


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[Relic]

.

If some people want to bicker
over the definition of aion(s).

Instead of that then,
How about explaining this? :

• Revelation 14:11
  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Seems quite clear to me, the when the words "for ever and ever" are used, in context, it is saying that it never ends.

How can anyone who worships the devil find the peace of Christ Jesus or even enter into heaven? answer: Matthew 7:21-29

One must repent in order to do so. If there is unrepentance, then what have you? Torment that results from living/worshiping wickedly.



"for ever and ever"

Doesn't that then interpret as being from age to age?

Still results in being an un-ending situation.

Yes?


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[Lyric's Dad]

.

If some people want to bicker
over the definition of aion(s).

Instead of that then,
How about explaining this? :

• Revelation 14:11
  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Seems quite clear to me, the when the words "for ever and ever" are used, in context, it is saying that it never ends.

It says nothing about those people being tormented forever. It says that the smoke rises forever. Again I will use my flashlight analogy.

If I turn on my flashlight and point it into space, the light goes forward forever. But does that mean my light is still on or could I have long ago switched it back off?

 

[antitox]

.

If some people want to bicker
over the definition of aion(s).

Instead of that then,
How about explaining this? :

• Revelation 14:11
  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Seems quite clear to me, the when the words "for ever and ever" are used, in context, it is saying that it never ends.

It says nothing about those people being tormented forever. It says that the smoke rises forever. Again I will use my flashlight analogy.

If I turn on my flashlight and point it into space, the light goes forward forever. But does that mean my light is still on or could I have long ago switched it back off?

Ha! That is SO WEAK. Such arguments don't have a leg to stand on. Like reaching for straws. Sorry, but no cigar. I know you want to support what you believe but that bag doesn't even have air. :

 

[Drew]

Ha! That is SO WEAK. Such arguments don't have a leg to stand on. Like reaching for straws. Sorry, but no cigar. I know you want to support what you believe but that bag doesn't even have air. :

It would be so much more constructive if such protests had actual content, not simple declarations of disagreement.

Consider the passage again: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If (and granted this is a bif "if")) we take this verse as it stands (as it reads plainly), Lyric Dad's position is entirely defensible. Why? Quite simple, actually:

1. It is entirely plausible that smoke can rise forever and ever without the burning that produced it also carrying on forever.

2. Having no rest day nor night does not necessarily imply that being in this state of "no rest" lasts forever.

3. Any attempt to argue that the smoke ascending forever requires that the "state of no rest" also lasts forever is subject to point 1 - the smoke can rise forever and ever without requiring the same of the fire that produced it - and it is this fire that reasonably would be the cause of any state of "no rest".

So LD's analogy is valid.

Having argued as I have, I have severe doubts about the whole approach of reading these texts using a "plain reading of the words".

 

[Lewis]

If some people want to bicker
over the definition of aion(s).

Instead of that then,
How about explaining this? :

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



Seems quite clear to me, the when the words "for ever and ever" are used, in context, it is saying that it never ends.

It says nothing about those people being tormented forever. It says that the smoke rises forever. Again I will use my flashlight analogy.

If I turn on my flashlight and point it into space, the light goes forward forever. But does that mean my light is still on or could I have long ago switched it back off?


Ha! That is SO WEAK. Such arguments don't have a leg to stand on. Like reaching for straws. Sorry, but no cigar. I know you want to support what you believe but that bag doesn't even have air.

Please tell me why that is so weak. Even when you have proof, people just plain, refuse to except it.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

How plain can it be, these people are going to suffer forever. But you know what ? It is just pointless to even discuss this anymore.

 

[Relic]

.

Ha! That is SO WEAK. Such arguments don't have a leg to stand on. Like reaching for straws. Sorry, but no cigar. I know you want to support what you believe but that bag doesn't even have air.

Ya got that right antitox. He has no debate here. No matter how many straws he tries to pull out of his bag.

.

If some people want to bicker
over the definition of aion(s).

Instead of that then,
How about explaining this? :

• Revelation 14:11
  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Seems quite clear to me, the when the words "for ever and ever" are used, in context, it is saying that it never ends.

It says nothing about those people being tormented forever. It says that the smoke rises forever. Again I will use my flashlight analogy.

If I turn on my flashlight and point it into space, the light goes forward forever. But does that mean my light is still on or could I have long ago switched it back off?

I already showed you in a previous post, what your flashlight analogy only proves, And it doesn't prove what you posted here.
What I showed you about your flashlight analogy .... is right here:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=237067#237067

And your response to that was, what?

It was this: "Yeah, um, okay, sure."




So then, Now..... I ask you this..... :


Have you even considered this fact?


Where there is smoke there is fire.

The smoke does not cease until the fire goes out.

Where in that scripture does it say
the smoke ceases to ascendeth up?
It does not.
But what it does say is that
...it ascendeth up for ever and ever
and they have no rest day or night, ...

• Revelation 14:11
  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Sounds like unending torment to me....
The effects of, the consequences of sin
are torment, without rest.

The "unrepentant" find no rest from the torments of sin/evil/wickedness


How can the _unrepentant_ have anything but unending torment?

If you don't die to your sins, you die in your sins.



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[Drew]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

How plain can it be, these people are going to suffer forever. But you know what ? It is just pointless to even discuss this anymore.

Hi Lewis:

Serious debate requires arguments, not mere declarations of a position. In your post, you merely declare that your position is true. By contrast, I would humbly suggest that I have a provided an actual argument to the effect that the verse in question is consistent with an annihilationist position. In the spirit of equanimity, I invite you to critique my argument or provide one in defense of your interpretation of this verse.

 

[Relic]

Ha! That is SO WEAK. Such arguments don't have a leg to stand on. Like reaching for straws. Sorry, but no cigar. I know you want to support what you believe but that bag doesn't even have air. :

It would be so much more constructive if such protests had actual content, not simple declarations of disagreement.

Consider the passage again: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If (and granted this is a bif "if")) we take this verse as it stands (as it reads plainly), Lyric Dad's position is entirely defensible. Why? Quite simple, actually:

1. It is entirely plausible that smoke can rise forever and ever without the burning that produced it also carrying on forever.

2. Having no rest day nor night does not necessarily imply that being in this state of "no rest" lasts forever.

3. Any attempt to argue that the smoke ascending forever requires that the "state of no rest" also lasts forever is subject to point 1 - the smoke can rise forever and ever without requiring the same of the fire that produced it - and it is this fire that reasonably would be the cause of any state of "no rest".

So LD's analogy is valid.

Having argued as I have, I have severe doubts about the whole approach of reading these texts using a "plain reading of the words".

Can't you see the illogical arguement you present here? :o
There is no truth in it but only presumptions with that "big if" as it's foundation.


There is nothing but deceptive arguements in all three of those items, no truth whatsoever in them.



I must remind you....

The bible does not teach "a big if" in relations to the absolutes, the facts, in the Holy Word of God.


for ever and ever means just that. for ever and ever.



Where there is smoke, there IS fire.


There is no statement in scripture that says the smoke ceases to ascend up. Not one.

for ever IS for ever.

You can't change that. no matter how hard you try.


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[antitox]

It would be so much more constructive if such protests had actual content, not simple declarations of disagreement.

Oh Cmon. Shall we throw our spiritual understanding and discernment out the window for a comfortable doctrine? :smt064

Consider the passage again: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If (and granted this is a bif "if")) we take this verse as it stands (as it reads plainly), Lyric Dad's position is entirely defensible. Why? Quite simple, actually:

1. It is entirely plausible that smoke can rise forever and ever without the burning that produced it also carrying on forever.

Smoke rises from burning, and torment means torment.

2. Having no rest day nor night does not necessarily imply that being in this state of "no rest" lasts forever.

There is no rest in torment.

3. Any attempt to argue that the smoke ascending forever requires that the "state of no rest" also lasts forever is subject to point 1 - the smoke can rise forever and ever without requiring the same of the fire that produced it - and it is this fire that reasonably would be the cause of any state of "no rest".

So LD's analogy is valid.

Sorry, but you and he are basing more on what is not said rather than what is said. Hence, my response that is was a VERY weak argument and cannot stand up under any criticism.

Having argued as I have, I have severe doubts about the whole approach of reading these texts using a "plain reading of the words".

If you appraoch scripture from that standpoint, you will err considerably.

 

[Drew]

Hi Relic:

I understand why LD responded as he did to your critique of his analogy. Here is part of what you wrote:

"That meaning, the light appears to be always on. It is an everlasting imprint which travels through time. And if that light happens to go out, then the time frame in which that instance occured is still in motion in time, in that the darkness then becomes evident progressively. It goes well beyond the scope of our tiny planet earth."

I cannot unravel what you are trying to say here - please explain how a "time frame in which that instance occured is still in motion in time". How, precisely, can a time frame be in motion in time?

 

[Lewis]

Hi Lewis:

Serious debate requires arguments, not mere declarations of a position. In your post, you merely declare that your position is true. By contrast, I would humbly suggest that I have a provided an actual argument to the effect that the verse in question is consistent with an annihilationist position. In the spirit of equanimity, I invite you to critique my argument or provide one in defense of your interpretation of this verse.

Hi Drew

It is a simple matter, what does that verse say ?

 

[Drew]

Where there is smoke, there IS fire.

This is obviously untrue.

At noon, I light a fire and it burns away producing smoke.

At 1 PM I throw a ton of water on the fire, instantly dousing it.

Are you seriously going to claim that the billows of smoke that are in the air all magically disappear at 1 second after 1 PM because the fire has been extinguished at 1 PM?

That is a most interesting world...

Besides, how do you respond to the following verse from Jude 7 and associated question:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire"

Simple question: Are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today? Unless they are, you simply have no warrant to presume that a "plain reading" is sufficient. [credfit to guibox for this argument]

Are these cities presently burning as they would need to be if they are "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire"?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

.

If some people want to bicker
over the definition of aion(s).

Instead of that then,
How about explaining this? :

• Revelation 14:11
  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Seems quite clear to me, the when the words "for ever and ever" are used, in context, it is saying that it never ends.

It says nothing about those people being tormented forever. It says that the smoke rises forever. Again I will use my flashlight analogy.

If I turn on my flashlight and point it into space, the light goes forward forever. But does that mean my light is still on or could I have long ago switched it back off?

Ha! That is SO WEAK. Such arguments don't have a leg to stand on. Like reaching for straws. Sorry, but no cigar. I know you want to support what you believe but that bag doesn't even have air. :

Not for those without ears to hear and eyes to see. I am encouraged that you disagree.

And to further the comment above, is Gehenna still burning today? Nope, sure isn't. And the fact that the word in the original language is actually Gehenna that the faulty translations turned into hell should therefore tell you something.

Gehenna is now a beautiful park that thousands go to each year.

Yep, good old hell is quite a tourist attraction and one I hope to go to some day soon.

 

[antitox]

Not for those without ears to hear and eyes to see. It actually encourages me to the truth of it when I see comments like yours from my experience with you.

8-)