Did the gift of tongues cease?

[awaken]

[quote="follower of Christ]So you can argue context till the cows come home but it is VERY clear that tongues ARENT for those who BELIEVE but are for those who DONT believe but NEED a SIGN.
The mature believer doesnt need signs....blessed those who HAVENT seen and yet believe...
Prophesying is the gift for those who BELIEVE...for the mature in Christ who dont need to see signs and wonders to believe in the risen Lord and the Spirit inside us.[/quote]

1 Corinthians 14:21-25
"In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"" (1 Corinthians 14:21-25)

Paul seems to contradict himself in this passage. First he says that tongues are a "sign" for unbelievers, but then he says that if unbelievers see people speaking in tongues, the unbelievers will think that the believers are out of their minds.

It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:

"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)

This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever would not see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.

 

[John]

I honestly never spoke in tongues before.

 

[lovely]

John, I haven't either. I couldn't even retain the German I studied for three years...and my dad is the son of German imigrants! Language is not my gift.

 

[awaken]

What would be the point God telling us things would cease when Jesus comes back to the earth? Isn't that a "duh" statement? Of course these things will be done away with when Jesus comes. It's like saying "your heart will keep beating until you die". Well, duh! lol

Show me where Jesus is called "that"? Jesus is a "Him" or a "He", not an "it" or a "that". If Paul was referring to Jesus being "that which is perfect", why didn't Paul just say "He which is perfect"?

I have been a Christian for 13 years and never once spoke in tongues or had the desire to. Some people have tried to force it on me, but I wasn't about to let them brainwash me. I pray in English, and I am doing just fine with that.

Although "complete" is a valid translation of the basic Greek word teleios, Paul actually used a specific form of this Greek word in 1 Corinthians 13:10 which has a very definite meaning. Paul used the Greek expression "to teleion," which specifically refers to our ultimate perfection in heaven (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1372). You can easily verify the expression that Paul used by going to any library or Christian bookstore and looking up 1 Corinthians 13:10 in any Greek version of the New Testament. If you then look up teleios in the Greek dictionary mentioned above, you can verify that when it is used in the form of "to teleion" it refers to the heavenly perfection of our bodies, which we will not experience until our bodies are transformed and perfected at his coming.

 

[francisdesales]

I honestly never spoke in tongues before.

I'll bet the gunny in your picture did!

 

[John]

I honestly never spoke in tongues before.

I'll bet the gunny in your picture did!

Stanley Kubrick fan? :eyebrow

 

[francisdesales]

I'll bet the gunny in your picture did!

Stanley Kubrick fan? :eyebrow

Yes, but more the "ex-Marine" part... His work in "Full Metal Jacket" brings smiles of recognition to all of us! He played the part to a "T".

Regards

 

[Imagican]

John, I haven't either. I couldn't even retain the German I studied for three years...and my dad is the son of German imigrants! Language is not my gift.

The IMPORTANT THING is that we NOT covet 'gifts' PERIOD. For to covet is to 'worship'. And we ARE to worship God ALONE 'as God'.

Many churches teach that 'gifts' ARE to be coveted. That THEY are PROOFS of 'The Spirit'. I belive that the ONLY true PROOF of The Spirit is that which matters MOST: LOVE. Those that exhibit TRUE love ARE exhibiting the FRUIT of The Spirit.

Self edification is NOT what we have been commanded to experience or seek. We have been commanded to SEEK that which matters MOST and we can clearly SEE that the 'gift of tongues' is the LAST on the list. And I personally don't BELIEVE that we are ABLE to SEEK and OBTAIN that which can ONLY be 'given' as the Spirit chooses. It is not OUR will that brings about gifts. They would ONLY be offered by those RESPONSIBLE enough to USE them PROPERLY. And even then, ONLY for a PURPOSE.

The misuse of 'tongues' as exhibited in many of our modern churches are NOT the 'tongues' refered to in The Word POSTITIVELY. Paul's rebuke of those MISUSING 'tongues' are the EXACT words that our 'modern tongues users' USE in an ATTEMPT at justification. How ludicrous is this: to use words of REBUKE to justify ANY behavior?

Tongues were FOR a "TIME" and for a REASON. The MEAGER twelve apostles were commissioned to perform an 'almost' IMPOSSIBLE task. For these were commissioned and commanded to 'spread The Word'. When we consider that primitive means of transportation of the time and the vastness of the area involved, we can PLAINLY SEE the REASON that the 'gift of tongues' was NEEDED.

That time is OVER. The Word WAS spread and the Church WAS established BEYOND it's ability to be destroyed. Do we BELIEVE this? Do we HAVE faith in that God was ABLE to empower a 'handful' of individuals to ESTABLISH The Church? I do. And for this 'reason' we can see that there is NO LONGER a NEED for 'tongues'. We NOW have telephones that would allow us to communicate INSTANTLY over the entire planet. Is there not SOMEONE of EVERY language that has been exposed to The Word? There's the answer to this question in a 'nut shell'.

Tongues were LANGUAGES folks. For there is NO NEED for communication in ANYTHING but a LANGUAGE. Unknown languages in that they were NOT learned by those that were GIFTED with the abilty to communicate with others. That IS the miracle of the GIFT. That God made it possible for those UNLEARNED in 'other languages' to be UNDERSTOOD by those that they communicated with. For we KNOW that 'tongues are NOT for ''them that BELIEVE", but for them that DON'T. This is ALL the information that we NEED to discern WHAT 'tongues' WERE. For 'tongues' were the gift offered to those COMMISSIONED to 'spread The Word' to peoples of OTHER languages. So that WHEN they spoke, those UNBELIEVERS that were to receive the message were ABLE to understand it even when spoken by those that had NOT LEARNED THEIR LANGUAGE.

There is NO 'voice of angels' that IS 'tongues'. Voice is NOT language. VOICE is the UTTERANCE. The SOUND by which a voice travels. NOT the language ITSELF.

God KNOWS what's in our hearts. That means that He KNOWS what we are SAYING in our MINDS. He HEARS our THOUGHTS. What PURPOSE could UNKNOWN THOUGHTS server? Christ offered that WHEN WE PRAY we are to DO so in THIS MANNER: "Our Father.............'' These words are not uttered in some 'unknown tongue' for tongues were for them that BELIEVE NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[awaken]

The IMPORTANT THING is that we NOT covet 'gifts' PERIOD. For to covet is to 'worship'. And we ARE to worship God ALONE 'as God'.

Many churches teach that 'gifts' ARE to be coveted. That THEY are PROOFS of 'The Spirit'. I belive that the ONLY true PROOF of The Spirit is that which matters MOST: LOVE. Those that exhibit TRUE love ARE exhibiting the FRUIT of The Spirit.
MEC

I agree that we should should not worship the manifestation, but 1 Cor. 14:1 tells us to desire spiritual (gifts), but rather that ye may prophesy.

Self edification is NOT what we have been commanded to experience or seek. We have been commanded to SEEK that which matters MOST and we can clearly SEE that the 'gift of tongues' is the LAST on the list. And I personally don't BELIEVE that we are ABLE to SEEK and OBTAIN that which can ONLY be 'given' as the Spirit chooses. It is not OUR will that brings about gifts. They would ONLY be offered by those RESPONSIBLE enough to USE them PROPERLY. And even then, ONLY for a PURPOSE.
MEC

Seems like the Corinthians were pretty immature and they manifested tongues. And also self edification is not a bad thing, because Jude 20 says.... But ye, beloved, building up (edify) yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.

The misuse of 'tongues' as exhibited in many of our modern churches are NOT the 'tongues' refered to in The Word POSTITIVELY. Paul's rebuke of those MISUSING 'tongues' are the EXACT words that our 'modern tongues users' USE in an ATTEMPT at justification. How ludicrous is this: to use words of REBUKE to justify ANY behavior?

MEC

I agree that the tongues are misused or even out right faked today. But the Bible says they spoke in tongues....and also that we can speak in new tongues if we believe..Mark 16
Paul was rebuking them for using it wrong in church, not that it wasn't done. He says to forbid not speaking in tongues.

 

[awaken]

Tongues were FOR a "TIME" and for a REASON. The MEAGER twelve apostles were commissioned to perform an 'almost' IMPOSSIBLE task. For these were commissioned and commanded to 'spread The Word'. When we consider that primitive means of transportation of the time and the vastness of the area involved, we can PLAINLY SEE the REASON that the 'gift of tongues' was NEEDED.

MEC

So you are assuming that the manifestation was for spreading the gospel. Can you show me in scripture where this is?
I thought they were to build up the church..

God KNOWS what's in our hearts. That means that He KNOWS what we are SAYING in our MINDS. He HEARS our THOUGHTS. What PURPOSE could UNKNOWN THOUGHTS server? Christ offered that WHEN WE PRAY we are to DO so in THIS MANNER: "Our Father.............'' These words are not uttered in some 'unknown tongue' for tongues were for them that BELIEVE NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

If God knows what we need and what we think (which he does) Then why pray at all? whether in tongues or understanding? Your reasoning for not praying is still assumption!

My Bible tells me to pray

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (Ephesians 6:18)

"But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." (Jude 1:20)

 

[Dave Slayer]

The scriptures also say to pray with the understanding. If we pray or speak in a tongue that is not known to us, that we cannot understand, then how can we be praying with the understanding? Praying in the Spirit basically means to pray according to the Spirit's leading, not saying "alla panglay batta batta batta....". Maybe a baby can understand that, but I certainly can't.

 

[FightingAtheism]

The scriptures also say to pray with the understanding. If we pray or speak in a tongue that is not known to us, that we cannot understand, then how can we be praying with the understanding? Praying in the Spirit basically means to pray according to the Spirit's leading, not saying "alla panglay batta batta batta....". Maybe a baby can understand that, but I certainly can't.

Praying in the Spirit means to pray with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

I don't know how many times I have repeated myself.

 

[Imagican]

Tongues were FOR a "TIME" and for a REASON. The MEAGER twelve apostles were commissioned to perform an 'almost' IMPOSSIBLE task. For these were commissioned and commanded to 'spread The Word'. When we consider that primitive means of transportation of the time and the vastness of the area involved, we can PLAINLY SEE the REASON that the 'gift of tongues' was NEEDED.

MEC

So you are assuming that the manifestation was for spreading the gospel. Can you show me in scripture where this is?
I thought they were to build up the church..

God KNOWS what's in our hearts. That means that He KNOWS what we are SAYING in our MINDS. He HEARS our THOUGHTS. What PURPOSE could UNKNOWN THOUGHTS server? Christ offered that WHEN WE PRAY we are to DO so in THIS MANNER: "Our Father.............'' These words are not uttered in some 'unknown tongue' for tongues were for them that BELIEVE NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

If God knows what we need and what we think (which he does) Then why pray at all? whether in tongues or understanding? Your reasoning for not praying is still assumption!

My Bible tells me to pray

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests." (Ephesians 6:18)

"But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." (Jude 1:20)

I think it REDICULOUS to believe that something has to be DIRECTLY spoken in order to BE understood. There is NOTHING offered in scripture about smoking pot. But COMMON sense would dictate that ANYTHING that one does that 'takes away' from their walk is detrimental TO THAT WALK.

So, in this respect, when we can PLAINLY SEE that tongues are NOT for 'them that BELIEVE', but, 'for them that BELIEVE NOT', how ELSE are we to interpret this other than to understand that 'tongues' were given in order to COMMUNICATE to those that had YET to HEAR the message? Doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' to put 'two and two' together.

We pray in order to ACKNOWLEDGE God AS The Father. YES, He is AWARE of what we NEED wihtout being asked. But AS Our Father, we show our love Himwards BY prayer. And prayer is NOT just for ASKING. Prayer is for THANKS MORE than ASKING. For in prayer we ask for that which edifies us and our neighbors in faith. About the ONLY 'thing' that I ask for in prayer is strength and UNDERSTANDING. But I give MUCH thanks for ALL that God has bestowed upon US. Namely His beloved Son that was sent to DIE for US.

So, you see, what MANY would TEACH concerning tongues is done NOT for the sake of God or HIs Children, but to make 'merchandise' of them. Selling out to some 'other god'. I need utter NO nonsensical gibberish that is ABLE to PLEASE God. When I speak, I speak with the understanding so that those that HEAR are ABLE to recieve edification through UNDERSTANDING.

Paul SUMMED it up in this statement, "Though I speak MORE than YE ALL, (understand what is being offered here. Not more than some or more than most, MORE THAN YE ALL), I would RATHER speak FIVE WORDS with the understanding than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue'. Now, WHAT does this MEAN to YOU?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Dave Slayer]

The scriptures also say to pray with the understanding. If we pray or speak in a tongue that is not known to us, that we cannot understand, then how can we be praying with the understanding? Praying in the Spirit basically means to pray according to the Spirit's leading, not saying "alla panglay batta batta batta....". Maybe a baby can understand that, but I certainly can't.

Praying in the Spirit means to pray with tongues.

2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(1Co.14:2)

14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co.14:14,15)

I don't know how many times I have repeated myself.

And I don't know how many times I have repeated myself. You just posted the scripture that says to pray with the understanding. If we pray in some intelligible gibberish, how can we be praying with the understanding? Our undersanding would be unfruitful. I want to be fruitful, not unfruitful.

I have read arguments very similar to yours for sometime now. In my opinion, they hold no water. I guess if talking in gibberish makes you feel better, more power to you. I certainly cannot stop you. However, I reject it because I do not find it to be Biblical. Some find it Biblical and some do not. I am convinced it is not Biblical, but I realize some are convinced that it is. And I suppose that is fine. I just do not need to talk like a baby for God to understand me. God has understood my English tongue for the entire 13 years I have been saved. So, I do speak in a tongue, the English tongue.

I think I have pretty much said all I can on this subject. I am considering backing out of the tongues debate for good at this forum. It has gone nowhere. Everyone has their minds made up, so it would be a waste of time to discuss it any futher.

God Bless,

Dave

 

[Imagican]

While it certainly can be frustrating to debate such issues, there is a REASON for it.

For MANY have been TAUGHT without given ample opportunity to compare scritpure with scripture. I speak so that these that TRULY seek The Spirit are able to abandone that which is NOT condusive to such communication.

Will there BE those that refuse to accept the truth NO MATTER WHAT? Absolutely. There will also be those that insist that we are to be following the 'laws' handed down to the Jews. But the TRUTH is able to set SOME free. It is OUR hope that we may PLANT the 'seed' that is able to be watered and nurtured into a 'full and healthy growth'. That is ALL we are ABLE to DO. The rest is in the hands of God.

Imagine how HARD it would be to be taught that 'tongues' IS the manifestation OF The Spirit. Learn to speak in them, (mimic what others in the group are doing), and then be confronted with the fact that what had offered so much 'acceptance' and personal edification was NOT of The Spirit. It would be EASIER for many to simply DENY the FACT and continue in what they were doing for the sake of SELF. I have witnessed those that would say something on this order, "I don't care if God Himself stated that the music I listen to is evil, I'm STILL going to listen to it". I know that this is NOT the 'same' situation, but it IS of the same concept.

So, for those that are UNABLE or unwilling to conform to the will of the Father, they will one day be forced to answer for their rebelion. But for many, they ARE able to come to the truth in understanding once they have been pointed in the proper direction.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[awaken]

I think it REDICULOUS to believe that something has to be DIRECTLY spoken in order to BE understood. There is NOTHING offered in scripture about smoking pot. But COMMON sense would dictate that ANYTHING that one does that 'takes away' from their walk is detrimental TO THAT WALK.
MEC

Show me in Acts when speaking in tongues are mentioned that it was to spread the gospel. It is not there. True smoking pot is not in the Bible...but tongues and the purpose is plain in scriptures.

So, in this respect, when we can PLAINLY SEE that tongues are NOT for 'them that BELIEVE', but, 'for them that BELIEVE NOT', how ELSE are we to interpret this other than to understand that 'tongues' were given in order to COMMUNICATE to those that had YET to HEAR the message? Doesn't take a 'rocket scientist' to put 'two and two' together.

MEC

I posted my response to the unbeliever and explained it with scriptures on page 2 of this thread.

We pray in order to ACKNOWLEDGE God AS The Father. YES, He is AWARE of what we NEED wihtout being asked. But AS Our Father, we show our love Himwards BY prayer. And prayer is NOT just for ASKING. Prayer is for THANKS MORE than ASKING. For in prayer we ask for that which edifies us and our neighbors in faith. About the ONLY 'thing' that I ask for in prayer is strength and UNDERSTANDING. But I give MUCH thanks for ALL that God has bestowed upon US. Namely His beloved Son that was sent to DIE for US.
MEC

Exactly! and if you will study the scriptures that teach on the baptism/filling and speaking in tongues..that is exactly what they are doing Praising and magnifying God.

So, you see, what MANY would TEACH concerning tongues is done NOT for the sake of God or HIs Children, but to make 'merchandise' of them. Selling out to some 'other god'. I need utter NO nonsensical gibberish that is ABLE to PLEASE God. When I speak, I speak with the understanding so that those that HEAR are ABLE to recieve edification through UNDERSTANDING.
MEC

I do not understand what you mean by making merchandise of them?? Selling out to some other god??

Paul SUMMED it up in this statement, "Though I speak MORE than YE ALL, (understand what is being offered here. Not more than some or more than most, MORE THAN YE ALL), I would RATHER speak FIVE WORDS with the understanding than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue'. Now, WHAT does this MEAN to YOU?

MEC

1 Corinthians 14:18-19
"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)


Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. This is a reference to the private form of tongues, because in the very next sentence Paul said, "But in the church..." Therefore, Paul spoke in tongues more than anyone else outside of church, praising God privately in the Spirit. Paul was thankful that he spoke in tongues frequently because he had a high regard for the personal benefit that people can receive through the private use of tongues (recall that a few verses earlier Paul said that he would like for everyone to speak in tongues).


Paul said that in church he would rather speak words of instruction (which people can understand), rather than an uninterpreted message in tongues (which people can't understand). In other words, it doesn't edify the church congregation when we use the private form of tongues in a public fashion (as if it's a message from God).

 

[Cornelius]

Just on a point of order:

When you discuss tongues, you must clarify which tongues you are talking about ! If you do not know the difference from Scripture, then you are only sowing confusion in this discussion .



1) Gift of tongues (Public speaking, sometimes a known language or sometimes an unknown language (angelic). These tongues can be interpreted )

2) Private tongues.(Never prayed in public, always not understood by the person who is praying)

 

[awaken]

Just on a point of order:

When you discuss tongues, you must clarify which tongues you are talking about ! If you do not know the difference from Scripture, then you are only sowing confusion in this discussion .



1) Gift of tongues (Public speaking, sometimes a known language or sometimes an unknown language (angelic). These tongues can be interpreted )

2) Private tongues.(Never prayed in public, always not understood by the person who is praying)

Yes, this was very confusing to me when I was studing the scriptures on tongues. When God showed me the difference...everything was much clearer.

If you make the two the same..it makes scripture contradict itself.