Did the Son have a beginning?

[JesusFan]

You are mixing up the things Jesus said as a human being walking on this earth and ignoring the things He said before He became flesh as the LORD.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The Spirit of Christ, The Spirit of the LORD, The Son spoke through the mouth of Zechariah saying… Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1

• Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
• But to the Son He says:.. You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


Jesus Christ is LORD. He is YHWH the God of Israel, the Son.

The witness of both the Father and the Holy Spirit is that Jesus is God

 

[JesusFan]

This is His will.
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

We live through Jesus. (our very life)
there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

Even the Angels are commanded to bow to Him.
Hebrews 1:6

The only begotten like to like Son of the Father or the only begotten God. In regard to all Gods offspring, His firstborn was the only child in which He was pleased that all His fullness should dwell. So that the Son is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers very being. Chosen before the world began to be our life and savior. Through whom God would reconcile all things to Himself.
So the one responsible for the Glory, Honor, and power of the Son is the Father. He Himself has greatly glorified His Firstborn and by His will is our worship of Him as our Lord and very life. The Spirit testifies from the mind of the Spirit as in a Son is given who is called Mighty God, prince of Peace everlasting Father.
Those who love the Son are Loved by the Father who Himself by His great love of the world sends us to His Son so we might live and never die. "They shall all be taught by God"
The Son sits on the throne of God with His Father. That throne has no end and the Christ is forever.
So while some try to distance others from the Son as we are not allowed to worship Him how can they have the very Spirit of Christ in them and not know He is their very life. In such a manner one might state my Lord and God. Yet for us there is but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ who has made us a kingdom of priests to serve His God and Father and He Himself, by Gods decree, is the one who judges not the Father.

I suggest you get to know Him as He is your life. (relationship as in sealed in Him by the Spirit) Do not let any other spirit lead you to distance yourself from Him. Worship and bow to Him. He and the Father are one not two.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

To confess Jesus as Lord is to acknowledge that he is God

 

[locust]

To confess Jesus as Lord is to acknowledge that he is God

we all know its possible to fine ''Jesus is the son of God'' in the Bible .even many times . but finding Jesus is God ? that apparently takes some imagination ,if its not stated .

 

[RandyK]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, today I want to pose a question that has pondered theologians for centuries: Did the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, have a beginning? We all know from Scripture that Jesus walked among us, that He is the Word made flesh (John 1:14). But when we delve into the mystery of the God, we grapple with passages that hint at Jesus' pre-incarnate existence (Colossians 1:15-17). What do you all make of this?

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,"
Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Colossians 1:17, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Perhaps some of you have come across teachings that explore Jesus' eternal nature. Maybe others have questions about how this aligns with God the Father being the one and only God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

I believe this is a topic approached best with humility and a teachable spirit. Let's open the floor to respectful discussion, using scripture as our guide, and ultimately glorifying God through our pursuit of understanding His holy nature.

It is not a subject really to be explored if you're doctrinally-orthodox. It is a given, from the Creeds, that Jesus is both God and Man--a dual nature. If he preexisted the things He created, he was God the Son from Eternity.

The question of his appearance as a Man is also unnecessary. We all know that Jesus, as a Man, had a birth. That was his beginning as a Man.

But as the Divine Son of God, he preexisted his humanity. I see his preexistent form as the Word of God, or the Son of God. The term "Son" connotes His appearance as a Man. But in order to establish his pre-human existence, I prefer to refer to him as the Word of God.

 

[JesusFan]

It is not a subject really to be explored if you're doctrinally-orthodox. It is a given, from the Creeds, that Jesus is both God and Man--a dual nature. If he preexisted the things He created, he was God the Son from Eternity.

The question of his appearance as a Man is also unnecessary. We all know that Jesus, as a Man, had a birth. That was his beginning as a Man.

But as the Divine Son of God, he preexisted his humanity. I see his preexistent form as the Word of God, or the Son of God. The term "Son" connotes His appearance as a Man. But in order to establish his pre-human existence, I prefer to refer to him as the Word of God.

Jesus was preexisiting as the Eternal Word of the Father, both were Yahweh, and he assumed Human flesh and sinless Human nature when Incarnated as the Son

 

[JesusFan]

we all know its possible to fine ''Jesus is the son of God'' in the Bible .even many times . but finding Jesus is God ? that apparently takes some imagination ,if its not stated .

Its plainly stated to be such in Gospel of John prologue

 

[RandyK]

we all know its possible to fine ''Jesus is the son of God'' in the Bible .even many times . but finding Jesus is God ? that apparently takes some imagination ,if its not stated .

To avoid modalistic difficulties with the language it is stated the way it is. But the Deity of Christ is clearly stated. Have you ever seen a man declare he is the Way, Truth, and Life? Have you ever heard a man say, "When you see me, you see the Father?"

Have you read where Jesus is the Word of God, the Word being both with God and identified as God? Yes, it has to be established without confusing the distinct Persons of God. You don't want to say, "The Son is the Father."

But recognizing the distinction of the Son with the Father we may legitimately say, "Jesus is God." And that's because all 3 Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, are God. But all 3 Persons must be distinguished.

I prefer to simply state, without confusion, "Jesus is Divine." That establishes His Deity while retaining his distinct Personhood.

 

[JesusFan]

To avoid modalistic difficulties with the language it is stated the way it is. But the Deity of Christ is clearly stated. Have you ever seen a man declare he is the Way, Truth, and Life? Have you ever heard a man say, "When you see me, you see the Father?"

Have you read where Jesus is the Word of God, the Word being both with God and identified as God? Yes, it has to be established without confusing the distinct Persons of God. You don't want to say, "The Son is the Father."

But recognizing the distinction of the Son with the Father we may legitimately say, "Jesus is God." And that's because all 3 Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit, are God. But all 3 Persons must be distinguished.

I prefer to simply state, without confusion, "Jesus is Divine." That establishes His Deity while retaining his distinct Personhood.

The Holy Spirit Inspired John to write in the Greek text in a way to confirm Jesus was and is very God, as the Father is also, while refuting heresies of Oneness, Unitarianism, and Modalism

 

[locust]

The Holy Spirit Inspired John to write in the Greek text in a way to confirm Jesus was and is very God, as the Father is also, while refuting heresies of Oneness, Unitarianism, and Modalism

could be ,but perhaps there were people much like yourself that did not like the way it read and changed it .
Acts 20:29 KJV "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

 

[JesusFan]

could be ,but perhaps there were people much like yourself that did not like the way it read and changed it .
Acts 20:29 KJV "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

Except there are not manuscripts known that rendered it as the word was a god, but always as word was God

 

[locust]

θεὸς θεόν both words are god & God from John 1:1.
is that agreed ?

 

[DavidLamb]

θεὸς θεόν both words are god & God from John 1:1.
is that agreed ?

Did you mean to put, "god and God"? In John 1:1 as far as I can see, exactly the same word is used for "God" both times, the Greek Theos.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Joh 1:1 NKJV)

 

[locust]

Did you mean to put, "god and God"? In John 1:1 as far as I can see, exactly the same word is used for "God" both times, the Greek Theos.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Joh 1:1 NKJV)

both different words were found used in john 1:1 .to me that indicates a difference between the two words that both translate to the word God or god . we have been told ,in English ,to use the upper case G when referring to the almighty God . to all other gods the lower case g is used . at the moment its a curiosity to me.

 

[Free]

both different words were found used in john 1:1 .to me that indicates a difference between the two words that both translate to the word God or god . we have been told ,in English ,to use the upper case G when referring to the almighty God . to all other gods the lower case g is used . at the moment its a curiosity to me.

θεὸς and θεόν are the same word; the first is in the accusative case and the second in the nominative. The reason why the NWT falsely translates "God" and "a god," is

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is important to note that in the Greek the article is present, so it literally reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father.

When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it did in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable— they would be one and the same—which is the error of Modalism/Oneness theology. Without the definite article, it can only mean either "a god" or be of a qualitative sense (having the qualities or nature of God).

Of course, the NWT uses this to mean that the word was "a god," but that is false, as that is polytheism. We can rule out "a god" immediately because of what God has already told us:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

(All ESV.)

Of course, that is repeated throughout the NT as well. So, we know without a doubt that there is only one God and no other actual living god that is in any way divine. That precludes the translation "a god." Therefore, it can only have a qualitative meaning, that is, that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."

John's grammar is very specific, to show that the Word is a divine person distinct from the Father, yet equal to him, being true deity, while at the same time avoiding such heresies as Modalism, Arianism, and polytheism.

 

[JesusFan]

θεὸς and θεόν are the same word; the first is in the accusative case and the second in the nominative. The reason why the NWT falsely translates "God" and "a god," is

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is important to note that in the Greek the article is present, so it literally reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father.

When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it did in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable— they would be one and the same—which is the error of Modalism/Oneness theology. Without the definite article, it can only mean either "a god" or be of a qualitative sense (having the qualities or nature of God).

Of course, the NWT uses this to mean that the word was "a god," but that is false, as that is polytheism. We can rule out "a god" immediately because of what God has already told us:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

(All ESV.)

Of course, that is repeated throughout the NT as well. So, we know without a doubt that there is only one God and no other actual living god that is in any way divine. That precludes the translation "a god." Therefore, it can only have a qualitative meaning, that is, that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."

John's grammar is very specific, to show that the Word is a divine person distinct from the Father, yet equal to him, being true deity, while at the same time avoiding such heresies as Modalism, Arianism, and polytheism.

JW and others love to point out that Jesus did not have the article "the" before Theos, so must be a lessor god, but truth is the Father also has at times no article used, and John point was to declare to us the that while the word was and is God also, was not the father Himself

 

[JesusFan]

both different words were found used in john 1:1 .to me that indicates a difference between the two words that both translate to the word God or god . we have been told ,in English ,to use the upper case G when referring to the almighty God . to all other gods the lower case g is used . at the moment its a curiosity to me.

No . John constructed his Greek text in such a manner oin order to conform that while Jesus and the Father are both God, Jesus was not the Father

 

[JesusFan]

Did you mean to put, "god and God"? In John 1:1 as far as I can see, exactly the same word is used for "God" both times, the Greek Theos.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Joh 1:1 NKJV)

JW should stay away from trying to use the Greek text, as that text will always refute their heresy views of who Jesus is

 

[locust]

I used a Interlinear Bible did a copy and paste of θεὸς and θεόν
then to a translation on Google . calling it a JW thing is iffy

 

[Free]

I used a Interlinear Bible did a copy and paste of θεὸς and θεόν
then to a translation on Google . calling it a JW thing is iffy

Was this to someone in particular, or was there a particular point you were addressing?

 

[Randy]

You are mixing up the things Jesus said as a human being walking on this earth and ignoring the things He said before He became flesh as the LORD.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

The Spirit of Christ, The Spirit of the LORD, The Son spoke through the mouth of Zechariah saying… Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1

• Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
• But to the Son He says:.. You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


Jesus Christ is LORD. He is YHWH the God of Israel, the Son.

I not confused. The Spirit of the true God is the Fathers always. In Christ the Father lives in all His fullness. Only in that context is Jesus the First and Last. He has always been the Son. The Father has always been His God for the Son who was is the Fathers oldest child. A Son called Mighty God, prince of peace, everlasting Father.

If He is Yahweh this point is moot. For you believe He created all things by His Deity, will and command rather than the Father did so by/through/for Him.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness,

And He wouldn't need to receive from any other what already belongs to Him. Let alone have another as His God.
Therefore God, YOUR GOD Has anointed you,...more than Your companions // Isn't He Deity?

appointed Heir of all things by God.