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Did we live as spirits before the earth was created?

mjjcb said:
mamre, I shouldn't have used the word "stumble". It sounds like I'm implying that you are inept. We have different meanings of the word "firstborn" as it applies to Jesus. I'll get back to you when I have more time, but I wanted to respond to this. No offense was intended. :sorry

mjjcb,

Don't worry about it. I am not offended. To understand these concepts is infinitely more important than being offended by words.

But, I wish you read the last post with attention.
Also, I was thinking that the problem may lie in the understanding of what is to be eternal.

Here's the reasoning from the scriptures:

Jesus commanded us to be perfect like our Father which is in Heaven. The Father is eternal. To become perfect like Him means we can become eternal. So, if one day by our obedience, we become eternal, does that mean we have no beginning or end?

We are not eternal now, which apparently means we had a beginning. But if we become eternal and we know we had a beginning, then eternal is not just not having a beginning or ending (or having always existed). It means something else.

By reason then, when we say that Jesus is the eternal God, eternal doesn't mean necessarily that He has been always eternal. And it doesn't merely means He always existed, as according to the scriptures anyone can become eternal by obedience. Therefore, He could very well have always existed, but became eternal at some point.

Please let me know you understand my reasoning.

Charles
 
mamre said:
Your belief is absolutely right, He is preeminent but, according to the scriptures, that is not all, and doesn't change what the scriptures are saying. You are also correct that He create everything and was before Abraham and before this earth. But He was Himself created by the "invisible God" before all those creations He did Himself.


If you replace the term "first born" with "preeminent" in Col 1:15, it renders: "the preeminent of every creature," it still makes Him a created being, which, in my opinion, diminishes Him because it doesn't give Him the true status of been the first to be born (the first born right you see throughout the scriptures refers to that). It doesn't resolve the contradiction with the verses that follow where He is also a creator. In other words: a creator of all things that is a preeminent of every creature, this is utterly confusing, Mike.

His preeminence is due to His obedience. He became preeminent because after being the first born He always did the will of the Father. There is a process of growth way before the earth was, while He was still a spirit that culminated with God giving Him preeminence. That is why at one point the Father says "thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee." That was the culmination of Jesus perfect obedience eons before this earth was ever created. He became the prime example of what God wanted for all the other spirit children that God created to be. That is why the Father loved Him so much and made him an eternal God.

As you can see I am not stumbling Mike. I am just sticking with the scriptures. Using the term preeminent doesn't change anything. Because He is the first born and because of His obedience He became preeminent.

In Isaiah, God says He was formed, and no other God was formed before or after Him. That means the Most High never made anyone else like Him.

Also, with all due respect, you don't seem to see any difference between what is a "physical" thing and what is a "spirit" thing. Either that, or you are just ignoring those concepts. Because of His preeminence, Jesus was given the privilege of preparing everything for our salvation, including organizing everything in heaven and creating this universe, and making the sacrifice. That would also explain why Lucifer was jealous and rebelled, he wanted to be that one.

What is Father of Spirits? It is a father that has begotten spirits. Jesus was the first of those spirits.

With all due respect, here are the terms you may confuse.

According to the scriptures:
First born of every creature: (before the earth existed)
Refers to the very fist spirit the "invisible God" ever created.

First begotten:
Refers to the first son God, the Most High, has ever begotten in spirit.

Only begotten in the flesh:
Refers to the only son that God, the Most High, has ever begotten in this physical world (flesh).

First born of the dead:
Refers to the first of all the children of God that have ever been resurrected with a physical body from the grave.

As you can see we cannot just gloss over and ignore the true meaning of these terms and resolve on our own that it "just" refers to preeminence.
Using the term "preeminent" on its own doesn't change much but it does show that "first born" does not mean that Jesus, or the Christ, was ever born. Together with the rest of the passage, to maintain context, it clearly states that Jesus created "all things," which means "everything that has ever been created." This is in complete agreement with John 1:1-3 and precisely why Jesus is preeminent.

Jesus has always been, just as the Father has always been. We did not exist until we were born. You are mixing Mormon and JW theology and that is a grave error on your part.

mamre said:
Jesus commanded us to be perfect like our Father which is in Heaven. The Father is eternal. To become perfect like Him means we can become eternal. So, if one day by our obedience, we become eternal, does that mean we have no beginning or end?

We are not eternal now, which apparently means we had a beginning. But if we become eternal and we know we had a beginning, then eternal is not just not having a beginning or ending (or having always existed). It means something else.

By reason then, when we say that Jesus is the eternal God, eternal doesn't mean necessarily that He has been always eternal. And it doesn't merely means He always existed, as according to the scriptures anyone can become eternal by obedience. Therefore, He could very well have always existed, but became eternal at some point.
We do not become eternal, we become immortal, that is, we will never die again. The Christ has never not existed, unlike us.
 
mamre said:
mjjcb said:
Col. 1: 15, 18
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


Mike,

You are absolutely right, I mentioned only worlds (just in passing), but He is the Creator of all we know and don't know. There is however a couple of things to understand in the combined scriptures you mention.

Here is why this is not derailing from the topic of living as spirits before this earth was created:

Verse 15 ends with a ":" (colon), which means Paul first define Who He is, The first born of every creature. If He is the first born of all creatures, and the following verses say He created everything, then apparently these verses contradict themselves.

However, since those scriptures are not contradicting themselves, then these verses are telling us that there are two aspects of creation: A spirit creation and a physical creation.

1. The "invisible God" of whom Jesus is the image, created all things in spirit. Paul, in Hebrews, mentions He (the Most High) is the Father of spirits, of which spirit creation, Jesus is the first born.

Charles, either my ADD is fully at work, you are using a different version than me, or you are adding/inferring some things to this text. Maybe it would help if you were to copy your text over to your post without editing, so I can see it plainly. I used the NIV, as this is what I use myself. The Colossians excerpt is printed above for reference. The word "spirit" isn't stated.

Look, besides the Jehovah Witness belief in Jesus' creation, I don't know of any other group that makes the claims you do. I don't mean to claim "truth by majority. I'm saying Christianity from all denominations have a clear understanding that Jesus has always been. If you could direct me to a website NOT sponsored or created by the Jehovah's Witnesses, that would help.

You might say you're not affiliated with the Jehovah Witness church; that you've arrived at this through careful study on your own. Well, that's fine, but Christianity has always held that Jesus has always been using Colossians, John, Micah, etc. You're belief is in contrast to the Christian Church - across the board from what I can tell. You make leaps, and call them in effect "obvious", when they are truly leaps.

Take John 1 for example...
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

You will, through your own studies, reject Christian doctrine and extrapolate from "In the beginning was the Word..." to mean that the "beginning" means that it was after "His beginning - after He was created". You infer that "Through Him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made." and come to the conclusion that He is the exception.

Your reasoning comes together when using the New World Translation...

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.

But of course, biblical Christianity rejects the NWT.

Charles, I and every biblical church seems to have missed what you have found. I'm honestly not trying to sound combative. But you're trying to say a main tenet of Christianity is clearly, plainly and simply wrong if one only looks at scripture. If you can show me a biblical Christian website endorsing this, I'd be interested in seeing it. If you can show me a denomination or church (besides Jehovah Witnesses), I'd be interested in learning.

I tried to work with the verses you mentioned, but didn't quote. The way you have read things into them makes me believe that you must be using the NWT. But I can't tell, because too often you aren't using text.

Christianity holds that Jesus has always been. Jehovah Witnesses believe He was created. If you're a well studied Christian, not affiliated with the Jehovah Witnesses, then it would seem (and I've asked you a number of times here already for evidence otherwise) you are on an island here.

So again, all I'm asking is to use accepted Christian text to back up your statements. If you need to use the NWT, by all means use it, but label it as such and include the text. I'm also asking for support from a biblical Christian church. Every one I can find use the verses we both have referred to and reject your assumption.

Jesus has always been, will always be. He was never created. "In the beginning was the Word..."

Thanks Charles!
Mike
 
Free

It is error to conclude that Peter was saying that one week is a thousand years.

Not 1 week,1 day is as a thousand year's

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let me give an example

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Question,did Adam die the day he took of the tree?

Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

As you can see, Adam didn't die on what man consider's a day but he died within a day for what is considered 1 day with God.......
 
onelove said:
Free

It is error to conclude that Peter was saying that one week is a thousand years.

Not 1 week,1 day is as a thousand year's

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Let me give an example

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Question,did Adam die the day he took of the tree?

Genesis 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

As you can see, Adam didn't die on what man consider's a day but he died within a day for what is considered 1 day with God.......
Oops. But it still applies. Peter is not saying that one day is equal to one thousand years.
 
mamre said:
I have read in Job that the morning stars and the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was to be created. And yet Protestantism, or Christianity in general don't accept it as true. Why is that? See below:
Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people.

Woe... this makes me nervous. First of all, in this portion of scripture we find God asking Job eighty-some questions... one after another after another and nowhere can we make a doctrine from this passage of scripture that human beings are eternal... That is without beginning and without end.

God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. Humans are not eternal... We have a beginning. The reason that Christianity does not accept humans as being without beginning is because we do have a begginging.

Furthermore be admonished that the road you are traveling down can be labeled "New Age". Years ago I was on a traveling ministry team and another person on the ministry team began teaching out of Psalm 82:6---> "I said you are gods" Jesus Quotes this verse in Matthew. The man began a teaching on how we are all gods. Furthermore, he argued that we are all "part of God" and eternal. He'd argue that we were without beginning and without ending.

I confronted the man on his faulty theology but it is tricky to do because they have verse after verse of scripture to support their view. Such as "Abide in me and I in you", "you are gods," etc. It took me a while but I finally realized that this is "New Age" and not doctrinally sound.

Last of all, I confronted the man and told him to see what some Bible Scholars and some commentaries said. He chastised me for "depending on the word of man" instead of upon the Holy Spirit. My philosophy is: why reinvent the wheel? There are people out there in the world who are smarter than me. Like it or not. Some scholars spend their entire lives researching one book of the Bible. Why reinvent the wheel? I am pentecostal and I realize the importance of asking the Holy Spirit's guidance... but ten people can ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and come up with ten different answers.

So, in conclusion, tread lightly, I feel new age teaching beginning to germinate.
 
frying pan addict

God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. Humans are not eternal... We have a beginning. The reason that Christianity does not accept humans as being without beginning is because we do have a begginging.

We we made spirits before we were made flesh...In other words we did have a beginning,it was just not a flesh one...God made the earth for us,thats why we shouted for joy

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

After satan's rebellion,God destroyed this earth,brought it to ruins,which is how it became void and without form,as it was not created that way....

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary:
"1961. hayah ... to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass."
"8414. tohuw ... to lie waste; a desolation (of surface)."

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was [or became — see Gen. 2:7; Strong's: hayah] without form [Strong's: tohuw], and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became [Strong's: hayah] a living soul.]

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain [Strong's: tohuw] [RSV: he did not create a chaos], he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Note carefully what that verse said, yet didn’t say. In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth, period. The word "beginning", is the Hebrew "reshiyth", which means, first in place, time, order or rank. The creation here was the First Earth age. What happened to it? That is fully and accurately described by the next verse.


Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Now, to read this at face value, it says that the earth was without form. Which must mean it was created without form. However, when you look at the Hebrew, you see something totally different. "Was" is "hayah", which means, became, come to pass. The word "Hayah" is always emphatic. That is to say, put the emphasis on the word "became". This same word was also used in Genesis 2:7. Check it out and see how it is worded there. "Without form" is "tohuw", which means, to lie waste, a desolation. "Void" is "bohuw", which means, a vacuity, an indistinguishable ruin. It will do you good to remember those words. We will see them again. Nevertheless, what is being said here is that the Earth was created. Then, it became a desolation and an undistinguishable ruin. It was destroyed. Then through the rest of chapter one in Genesis, the second Earth age was created. You see, Genesis 1:1 is timeless. There are no restrictions in the Bible for how old that age was. How about we take a look at this in a different place in the word?


Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited; "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

The word "vain†here is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:2. It is "tohuw", a desolation. God did not create the world as a desolation. It became one. God created this world to be inhabited, and it was inhabited. In spite of this, it is taught that the world was created void. That is a false teaching devised by the imaginations of man. The Word clearly states that the Earth was created, destroyed, and refashioned in the form you are living in today. This is not that hard to understand. However, you do have to study the original languages to understand it. Let’s examine this in yet another place.



II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water."

People are willingly ignorant of this, because they don’t study the Word. "Willingly" is "thelo", which means, to choose or prefer. They choose to believe what they are taught, and prefer to be ignorant of the truth. These are not my words. They are God’s. The Heavens are of old or better said, ancient. The Earth standing in and out of the water would be continents and oceans. Again, the Earth was created to be inhabited. We will get to who inhabited it later.



II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Yes, the world that was. That more than implies there is more than one Earth age."Overflowed" is "katakluzo", which means, to deluge. "Perished" is "apollumi", and as you have heard so many times before, it means to destroy fully. The first earth age was flooded with water, and destroyed. Then Genesis 1:3 picks up the narrative where the Second Earth Age starts to take form.


II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The current Earth age is reserved unto fire for the day of judgment. The first Earth age has already been destroyed by water. Wait a minute. Isn’t this speaking of Noah’s flood? Well, let’s document that it is not Noah’s flood.



Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Sound familiar? It should. The phrase, [it was], was added by man. This would better read as, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, without form and void;". This is taking a look at the Earth just after it was destroyed, and describes the aftermath. "Without form, and void", is again, "tohuw va bohuw", just as it is in Genesis. It became a desolated wasteland.

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is describing one major earthquake. "Trembled" is "raash", which means, to undulate. Well, what does the word undulate mean? It means to rise and fall or move from side to side in a smooth wave like motion. Mountains are pretty solid and it would take one powerful shaking to give them a "wave like" motion. "Moved lightly" is "qalal", which means, to be light in the sense of weight. Imagine if the mountains were moving like the ocean, the hills were being tossed around like featherweights. It was probably everything those little hills could do just to hang on! There were not any earthquakes recorded during Noah’s flood. So this verse is talking about something else entirely. Actually this describes what might have been the reaction of the Earth's thin surface crust floating on the surface of a molten sphere (not much different than it is today) if a large meteor hit it. The scientific community now believes this is exactly what happened in the Yucatan Peninsula that caused the extinction of all the Dinosaurs

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Let’s get the full idea of this. No one survived. In Noah’s flood there were at least eight survivors, with evidence for many more survivors, including birds. Noah sent out many birds for proof of the receding floodwaters. Granted, Noah’s flood was still a devastating flood. However, it was no where near the destruction described here. But wait, how could man not survive, if they had not yet been created? As we will learn deeper in this study, man had been created before. However, the angels and men were there, and so were some of the biggest animals known to man. We will get to that later. For now, let’s continue.(for evidence of man and dinosaurs together)



Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

Yes, there were fruitful places in the world that was. There were also cities. What happened to them? They were destroyed. They became "tohuw va bohuw". You don’t need to believe me that cities existed millions of years ago, ask an archaeologist. In the realm of science it is believed that this Earth met up with a disastrous event, but it is heavily debated what that event was. You are reading of that event now. However, If this was Noah’s flood, then how did the dove bring back a branch from an olive tree? It takes many years for an olive tree to grow. If the fruitful places were destroyed, there would have been nothing but a stick to bring back. The event described is an Earth shaking upheaval of the crust and oceans of the Earth not just a flood caused by rain. A forty day rain doesn't deposit fossils of seashells on the tops of mountains.


Jeremiah 4:27 "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

It was a full end of that Earth age. However, it was not a full end of the Earth. The end of this verse would be where Genesis 1:3 picks up. The world was totally obliterated. All life on the face of this Earth was destroyed, then re-created. The same thing will happen again at the end of this Earth age. It will be destroyed by fire, and again refurbished for the eternity.

2 Peter 3:10-13, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."


What has happened before, will happen again. There is nothing new under the sun, (Ecclesiastes 1:9-10). So now that we have documented that there was an Earth age before this current one, let’s see who lived in that earth age. Pick it up at the ending of the book of Job, where God is putting all the "wisdom of man" to shame.


http://www.ricter.com/wordline/void.htm
 
woe... that is poor "systematic theology" if I've ever seen it. Where to start. Before one ever picks up a Bible or handles the word of truth one needs to prepare spiritually and submit to the word of God... recognizing what it says... not determining what it says and taking God's word out of context.
 
onelove said:
frying pan addict

God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. Humans are not eternal... We have a beginning. The reason that Christianity does not accept humans as being without beginning is because we do have a begginging.

We we made spirits before we were made flesh...In other words we did have a beginning,it was just not a flesh one...God made the earth for us,thats why we shouted for joy

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

After satan's rebellion,God destroyed this earth,brought it to ruins,which is how it became void and without form,as it was not created that way....

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary:
"1961. hayah ... to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass."
"8414. tohuw ... to lie waste; a desolation (of surface)."

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was [or became — see Gen. 2:7; Strong's: hayah] without form [Strong's: tohuw], and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became [Strong's: hayah] a living soul.]

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain [Strong's: tohuw] [RSV: he did not create a chaos], he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Note carefully what that verse said, yet didn’t say. In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth, period. The word "beginning", is the Hebrew "reshiyth", which means, first in place, time, order or rank. The creation here was the First Earth age. What happened to it? That is fully and accurately described by the next verse.


Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Now, to read this at face value, it says that the earth was without form. Which must mean it was created without form. However, when you look at the Hebrew, you see something totally different. "Was" is "hayah", which means, became, come to pass. The word "Hayah" is always emphatic. That is to say, put the emphasis on the word "became". This same word was also used in Genesis 2:7. Check it out and see how it is worded there. "Without form" is "tohuw", which means, to lie waste, a desolation. "Void" is "bohuw", which means, a vacuity, an indistinguishable ruin. It will do you good to remember those words. We will see them again. Nevertheless, what is being said here is that the Earth was created. Then, it became a desolation and an undistinguishable ruin. It was destroyed. Then through the rest of chapter one in Genesis, the second Earth age was created. You see, Genesis 1:1 is timeless. There are no restrictions in the Bible for how old that age was. How about we take a look at this in a different place in the word?


Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited; "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

The word "vain†here is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:2. It is "tohuw", a desolation. God did not create the world as a desolation. It became one. God created this world to be inhabited, and it was inhabited. In spite of this, it is taught that the world was created void. That is a false teaching devised by the imaginations of man. The Word clearly states that the Earth was created, destroyed, and refashioned in the form you are living in today. This is not that hard to understand. However, you do have to study the original languages to understand it. Let’s examine this in yet another place.



II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water."

People are willingly ignorant of this, because they don’t study the Word. "Willingly" is "thelo", which means, to choose or prefer. They choose to believe what they are taught, and prefer to be ignorant of the truth. These are not my words. They are God’s. The Heavens are of old or better said, ancient. The Earth standing in and out of the water would be continents and oceans. Again, the Earth was created to be inhabited. We will get to who inhabited it later.



II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Yes, the world that was. That more than implies there is more than one Earth age."Overflowed" is "katakluzo", which means, to deluge. "Perished" is "apollumi", and as you have heard so many times before, it means to destroy fully. The first earth age was flooded with water, and destroyed. Then Genesis 1:3 picks up the narrative where the Second Earth Age starts to take form.


II Peter 3:7 "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The current Earth age is reserved unto fire for the day of judgment. The first Earth age has already been destroyed by water. Wait a minute. Isn’t this speaking of Noah’s flood? Well, let’s document that it is not Noah’s flood.



Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

Sound familiar? It should. The phrase, [it was], was added by man. This would better read as, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, without form and void;". This is taking a look at the Earth just after it was destroyed, and describes the aftermath. "Without form, and void", is again, "tohuw va bohuw", just as it is in Genesis. It became a desolated wasteland.

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

This is describing one major earthquake. "Trembled" is "raash", which means, to undulate. Well, what does the word undulate mean? It means to rise and fall or move from side to side in a smooth wave like motion. Mountains are pretty solid and it would take one powerful shaking to give them a "wave like" motion. "Moved lightly" is "qalal", which means, to be light in the sense of weight. Imagine if the mountains were moving like the ocean, the hills were being tossed around like featherweights. It was probably everything those little hills could do just to hang on! There were not any earthquakes recorded during Noah’s flood. So this verse is talking about something else entirely. Actually this describes what might have been the reaction of the Earth's thin surface crust floating on the surface of a molten sphere (not much different than it is today) if a large meteor hit it. The scientific community now believes this is exactly what happened in the Yucatan Peninsula that caused the extinction of all the Dinosaurs

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Let’s get the full idea of this. No one survived. In Noah’s flood there were at least eight survivors, with evidence for many more survivors, including birds. Noah sent out many birds for proof of the receding floodwaters. Granted, Noah’s flood was still a devastating flood. However, it was no where near the destruction described here. But wait, how could man not survive, if they had not yet been created? As we will learn deeper in this study, man had been created before. However, the angels and men were there, and so were some of the biggest animals known to man. We will get to that later. For now, let’s continue.(for evidence of man and dinosaurs together)



Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

Yes, there were fruitful places in the world that was. There were also cities. What happened to them? They were destroyed. They became "tohuw va bohuw". You don’t need to believe me that cities existed millions of years ago, ask an archaeologist. In the realm of science it is believed that this Earth met up with a disastrous event, but it is heavily debated what that event was. You are reading of that event now. However, If this was Noah’s flood, then how did the dove bring back a branch from an olive tree? It takes many years for an olive tree to grow. If the fruitful places were destroyed, there would have been nothing but a stick to bring back. The event described is an Earth shaking upheaval of the crust and oceans of the Earth not just a flood caused by rain. A forty day rain doesn't deposit fossils of seashells on the tops of mountains.


Jeremiah 4:27 "For thus hath the Lord said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

It was a full end of that Earth age. However, it was not a full end of the Earth. The end of this verse would be where Genesis 1:3 picks up. The world was totally obliterated. All life on the face of this Earth was destroyed, then re-created. The same thing will happen again at the end of this Earth age. It will be destroyed by fire, and again refurbished for the eternity.

2 Peter 3:10-13, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."


What has happened before, will happen again. There is nothing new under the sun, (Ecclesiastes 1:9-10). So now that we have documented that there was an Earth age before this current one, let’s see who lived in that earth age. Pick it up at the ending of the book of Job, where God is putting all the "wisdom of man" to shame.


http://www.ricter.com/wordline/void.htm


Hi

You have spoken alot of truth within this post. However, not everything you have said is true !

We were not spirits prior to our birth. Nowhere in scripture makes any reference to this whatsoever !

Next, in Gen. 1:2 the earth did become without form and void. And prior to that there was life here on this earth. However, God is not the one who destroyed this earth with water. The serpent did - Rev. 12:15. Also, God didn't recreate this earth. The first earth age, had life. The Word of God talks about a third heaven and earth, and both are 'New", not renewed. We are still upon the first earth now, but renewed. Nowhere in scripture does it talk about this earth as being the second earth. This is because this earth age, is the first earth renewed. It"s just a new earth age, not a new earth.

The old earth, is the first earth age . The old earth was flooded and standing in water and out of water - II Peter 3:5. And in verse 6 it tells us that the first earth age , all things perished. This was Gen. 1:2. All things perished from the first earth age of Gen. 1:1.

God only destroys this earth twice, not three time ! Once and the first time with the flood of Noah. This is a figurative destruction, as God preserved this earth by one, and that one was Noah. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The second time God destroys this earth, he destroys it with fire and brimestone. < This is the literal destruction of this earth. Total annihilation. Then God will make all things New. Then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, wherein dewelleth all righteousness. There will be no refurbishing whatsoever of this earth ! This earth will be totally destroyed by God.

Remember -- God makes all things new !
 
Mysteryman said:
After satan's rebellion,God destroyed this earth,brought it to ruins,which is how it became void and without form,as it was not created that way....

Misteryman and onelove,

There is nowhere in the scriptures that says that God create one earth than destroyed, then created again. Whoever says that, is inventing "scriptures"

Gen. 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nowhere in the scriptures you will find that God destroyed the earth in that sense, bringing it to ruins. Much less that happening after Satan rebellion. Satan, and his followers were cast down to earth.
Rev. 12: 4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

So if they were cast to earth, that means the earth already was formed.

Sorry that is very confusing, what you're are saying is not part of the Gospel of Christ at all.

mamre
 
mjjcb said:
Charles, either my ADD is fully at work, you are using a different version than me, or you are adding/inferring some things to this text. Maybe it would help if you were to copy your text over to your post without editing, so I can see it plainly. I used the NIV, as this is what I use myself. The Colossians excerpt is printed above for reference. The word "spirit" isn't stated.

Look, besides the Jehovah Witness belief in Jesus' creation, I don't know of any other group that makes the claims you do. I don't mean to claim "truth by majority. I'm saying Christianity from all denominations have a clear understanding that Jesus has always been. If you could direct me to a website NOT sponsored or created by the Jehovah's Witnesses, that would help.

You might say you're not affiliated with the Jehovah Witness church; that you've arrived at this through careful study on your own. Well, that's fine, but Christianity has always held that Jesus has always been using Colossians, John, Micah, etc. You're belief is in contrast to the Christian Church - across the board from what I can tell. You make leaps, and call them in effect "obvious", when they are truly leaps.
Mike

mccj,

I am not sure what you mean by ADD.
I am only putting part of your comments to make it less lengthy.

You, and other fellow forum participants, keep labeling things: "This sounds New Age, that sounds JW, etc." This makes it sound that only some have the truth and if others don't agree, they must be this or that. Here are my comments:

1. All that I have done is to expound the scriptures. I have studied them, pondered them, prayed about them and showed what they say. That is that simple. There is no JW, or NA, or Adventist, or what have you. The truth stands on its own. And, you can find truth everywhere. So if the JW, or the Baptists agree with THE WORD OF GOD, which is in the scriptures, good for them. That doesn't mean they have all the truth, it simply means they understand a few things.

2. Having things published by "Christians" on the internet or in the press doesn't make them truth. It may make them "mainstream." But definitely doesn't make them truth if they don't come from God.

3. Each one of you is an independent creature. You can study the scriptures, you can ponder them on your own, and what is more, you can pray DIRECTLY to Father in Heaven in the name of Christ, to know about it's truths. You don't need any minister, pastor, or scholar opinion, or any group, to know the truth. You have direct access to the source of all the truth. Why do you need the validation of some author or group to conclude that this or that is true? How about if that particular author or group is expressing his/their opinion? That makes HIS opinion, and not the Word of God. Who do you want to follow, someone's opinion about the scripture our the scripture itself?

As a true Christian, you should rely directly upon God for the truth and not on publications, or opinions of scholars, groups, as mainstream as they may seem to be, or what have you.

mamre.
 
Mamre said:
As a true Christian, you should rely directly upon God for the truth and not on publications, or opinions of scholars, groups, as mainstream as they may seem to be, or what have you.
Incorrect. That is precisely why there are so many different opinions. It also fails to take into account the different gifts God has given to different believers for the benefit of all. We are not islands unto ourselves where we worship and learn individually. We are meant to be in communion with both God and fellow believers for both worship and in coming to a knowledge of the truth. To ignore what others have to say is to put oneself above everyone else in a position of spiritual superiority.
 
mamre said:
Mysteryman said:
After satan's rebellion,God destroyed this earth,brought it to ruins,which is how it became void and without form,as it was not created that way....

Misteryman and onelove,

There is nowhere in the scriptures that says that God create one earth than destroyed, then created again. Whoever says that, is inventing "scriptures"

Gen. 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nowhere in the scriptures you will find that God destroyed the earth in that sense, bringing it to ruins. Much less that happening after Satan rebellion. Satan, and his followers were cast down to earth.
Rev. 12: 4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

So if they were cast to earth, that means the earth already was formed.

Sorry that is very confusing, what you're are saying is not part of the Gospel of Christ at all.

mamre

Again,God did not create this earth,void and without form and He did destroy it...

Jeremiah 4:22 "For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

God is showing His disappointment in His people here. The work for "sottish" in the Hebrew means "stupid"[Strongs #5530, Cakal, "to play the fool.."]. He is disappointed in His people because of their foolishness, and stupidity in listening and being deceived. He is saying, if you don't think that I am going to bring destruction at the seventh trumpet of this earth age, you had better look back at the first Earth Age. Satan rebelled and I destroyed the entire earth age.

God is setting the stage here for what He did to end that first Earth Age. God is reminding us that His people have been foolish, and always listened to men, and their foolish traditions. They prefer not to listen to God's Word, but the foolish doctrines of men's traditions. Who do you listen to, man or God? The definition of one that has no knowledge, is stupid. There is only one place to gain the knowledge from God, and that is to study God's Word.

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

God is telling us here exactly what He did to the earth at one time. This was in the first earth age. The earth spoken of here, is the "erets" as given in the Hebrew text. In Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 776.

God is saying that He was so angry before, in that first earth age, that He totally destroyed everything. In the Hebrew, from Genesis 1:2, "tohu va bohu" which means, "without form and void" "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

God said that He did not create the earth a waste land and void, it became that way when God shook it.

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Imagine all the hills and mountains around this earth moving in one massive earthquake.

Can't get any clearer

As for Rev 12:4,that is what happened in the first earth age.that's the reason God destroyed the earth.As of now,satan is still in heaven,he does not come to earth until the 6th trump,when Michael kicks him out,that's when he come to earth pretending to be Christ...

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

This event brings us back into heaven. The war is between Satan [the dragon] and his angels, who are fighting against Michael and his angels. Satan will lose.

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

This is the time of the sounding of the fifth trumpet, when Satan and his fallen angels are released upon the earth for the final five months period, spoken of in Revelation 9:5, 10. Satan will spend five months here on earth deceiving all mankind, then go to the pit for the thousand years. After that thousand years, Satan [not his fallen angels] will be released for a short period, then go to perdition [perish]. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, he will not be allowed to return. Today Satan is in heaven accusing the saints before the Lord.

This is prophesy that will come in the very near future.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

If you were ever confused who Satan is, John calls him by the names he used while playing his different roles on earth. The "dragon" is Satan's role in that first earth age, when one third of all of God's children followed him. Satan's evil spirit is allowed on earth now, along with his demons. However, you haven't seen Satan in person yet. Satan and his angels, both physically and bodily, will come to earth just as they did in Genesis 6.
 
"Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people."

Agnes Sanford felt that there WAS "Spiritual pre-existence", and that our "spirits" predated our births.

Of course there's no conclusive "Evidence" for that, so any "argument" is going to be pure conjecture, and not worthy of serious consideration.

Maybe we did, and maybe we didn't.

It couldn't matter less.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
"Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people."

Agnes Sanford felt that there WAS "Spiritual pre-existence", and that our "spirits" predated our births.

Of course there's no conclusive "Evidence" for that, so any "argument" is going to be pure conjecture, and not worthy of serious consideration.

Maybe we did, and maybe we didn't.

It couldn't matter less.

It matters from the stand point of,if you can see this,the Word of God opens up so beautifully,as far as salvation,no,it dosn't matter...
 
Quote onelove: "Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

God is telling us here exactly what He did to the earth at one time. This was in the first earth age."


Hi

You must be wearing a pair of those new fancy three "D" glasses my friend. Because you must see things in verse 23 that no one else sees !

Can you let me borrow your three "D" glasses, so that I can see where in verse 23 it says that God destroyed the earth in Gen. 1:2 ? ? ?

What does the word "beheld" mean to you ? Do you interpret this word to mean "destroyed" ?

What would happen, if God were to beheld your car or home ? :rolling
 
mamre said:
Mysteryman said:
After satan's rebellion,God destroyed this earth,brought it to ruins,which is how it became void and without form,as it was not created that way....

Misteryman and onelove,

There is nowhere in the scriptures that says that God create one earth than destroyed, then created again. Whoever says that, is inventing "scriptures"

Gen. 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nowhere in the scriptures you will find that God destroyed the earth in that sense, bringing it to ruins. Much less that happening after Satan rebellion. Satan, and his followers were cast down to earth.
Rev. 12: 4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

So if they were cast to earth, that means the earth already was formed.

Sorry that is very confusing, what you're are saying is not part of the Gospel of Christ at all.

mamre

Hi mamre

No, I didn't say that ! Onelove did ! I refuted his claim. Careful reading of what one reads is of the utmost importance.
 
In what way does the "Word of God open up so beautifully"???

It doesn't appear to me to matter one way or the other in the least.
 
Mysteryman said:
mamre said:
Mysteryman said:
After satan's rebellion,God destroyed this earth,brought it to ruins,which is how it became void and without form,as it was not created that way....

Misteryman and onelove,

There is nowhere in the scriptures that says that God create one earth than destroyed, then created again. Whoever says that, is inventing "scriptures"

Gen. 1: 2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nowhere in the scriptures you will find that God destroyed the earth in that sense, bringing it to ruins. Much less that happening after Satan rebellion. Satan, and his followers were cast down to earth.
Rev. 12: 4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

So if they were cast to earth, that means the earth already was formed.

Sorry that is very confusing, what you're are saying is not part of the Gospel of Christ at all.

mamre

Hi mamre

No, I didn't say that ! Onelove did ! I refuted his claim. Careful reading of what one reads is of the utmost importance.

Hi misteryman,

I apologize for including you in my comment about that claim.

mamre
 
Free said:
Mamre said:
As a true Christian, you should rely directly upon God for the

truth and not on publications, or opinions of scholars, groups, as mainstream as they may

seem to be, or what have you.
Incorrect. That is precisely why there are so many different opinions. It also fails to take

into account the different gifts God has given to different believers for the benefit of

all. We are not islands unto ourselves where we worship and learn individually. We are meant

to be in communion with both God and fellow believers for both worship and in coming to a

knowledge of the truth. To ignore what others have to say is to put oneself above everyone

else in a position of spiritual superiority.


Free,

So, you seem to be saying that we should NOT trust in God to know the truth.
Shouldn't it be the opposite? "One faith, on baptism, one doctrine" as they come STRAIGHT from God?

And yet, the scriptures say that "...let God be true, but every man a liar;" Rom. 3:4

I can't believe you are saying that if we go DIRECTLY to God than we all will have different opinions.

There is only ONE source of truth. And that source is God. If we ask God to show us the way,
and we asked Him humbly, with faith and real intent in the name of Christ He will show us the truth.

If we trust in man's opinion, then it is what we see in the Christian world and in the world in general today.

In other words, there are so many denominations, because one group, proudly, says "this is what the scripture say", others say, "no, come here, Christ is here", yet others say, "I believe my flavor of doctrine is the correct one, follow me," others say "you don't need a church, all you need is to do good," others say "it doesn't matter this or that," and so on and so forth.

In this forum alone I have seem a number dozen of opinions that come from the "inside" of general Christian category, take a look at the list below.

These are things I have read in posts in this Christian forum:

1. Human beings were all in the mind of God before they came to earth

2. After Lucifer's rebellion God destroyed this earth and built another one

3. It doesn't matter if we lived before, or not, it's all good

4. There was a race of angels that came down to earth to have sex with the daughters of men

5. Some seem to believe humans lived before the earth was created (I just mention this because it doesn't seem to be a "mainstream" Christian tenet)

6. Some people in this forum seem not be able tell the difference between what is immortal and what is eternal

7. Some people in this forum don't seem to be able to tell the difference between what is physical and what is spiritual

8. Some people in this forum believe we all were intended to be only spirits even though Christ is the "first born from the dead" giving us the gift of physical resurrection

10. Some people in this forum don't seem to have any idea of what resurrection is

11. The majority of people that I have interact with here had no idea that the scriptures say that "hell" and "paradise" are intermediary places we go after death to await for the resurrection


As you can see there is no unity, much less true knowledge, only opinion. And they are all different at that.

So, the question is, if we don't go DIRECTLY to God to know the truth, with faith and real
intent in the name of Christ, then, who should we go to to know the truth?

Judging by the several posts I have seen here, it seems that even having a Bible, people have no idea of what it is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

And now, you come and say that if we to God the Father of all truth, we will have different opinions, not the truth. That's confusing.

With all due respect, the above list sounds very like the scriptures that say:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Tim 4:2-3


Jesus said that: "And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

If one wants to have eternal life he/she must truly 'KNOW' the Father and Jesus, not just believe. The only way to know God is going humbly directly to Him and asking for that witness. None else can give you that knowledge other than the Father. And, believing, is not enough because even the demons believe.

So, between man and God, I will go to God any and every time. I may listen to my fellow man, interact, etc., but I will seek true knowledge from God alone. He alone has the truth and He is my Father, and He has my interest as His main purpose. He will lead me because He loves me.

Yes, between you, or any man, be him a scholar, a minister, a student, a president, what have you, I take God. And, yes, if I go to God humbly and He answers me as He does, guess what? I am right. And there is nothing you or anyone else can do. And everyone can do that, go straight to the Father and be right.

To be saved, one needs to be right, and needs to be in a position spiritually superior, as Christ is in an infinitely spiritual superior position. And that is our goal. All those that are right (truly right), will converge and become the true people of God, because they have the true knowledge of God.

You can be right too, if you humble yourself and ask the Father for the truth.

Have a good day,

mamre
 
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