Do Preterists Believe In The Rapture?

[nonbelieverforums]

Are you now going to covert to the more legitimate majority view (now that you know yours is the minority) or are you going to be a hypocrite and abandon your previous argument??

If the occult and new age became the majority view should that be the one I follow??

Not in a thousand years (2009 forward).. It just means I have twice as much work to do

 

[parousia70]

Are you now going to covert to the more legitimate majority view (now that you know yours is the minority) or are you going to be a hypocrite and abandon your previous argument??

If the occult and new age became the majority view should that be the one I follow??

You tell me.
You are the one who made the claim that the majority view is the more legitimate view.
I have never made ANY such claim.

It's one thing to be a hypocrite, but actually being proud of your hypocrisy is something completely different.

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Hello~

As a practical person I do understand the problems of believing in the rapture.

I would ask the same question that Vic does if one believes the rapture has already happened, this view leaves every Christian after the supposed 70AD rapture event to await what? The judgment seat at the Great White Throne of God?

Also~ I would like to address some of your responses... Drew. I think it misrepresents the biblical text to say:
That the bible has no reference at all to a rapture. That there is no literal heaven outside of earth. (if I understood your comments correctly that is...)

Heaven is not “up there somewhere†– it is not a “place†in what we see around us as physical reality.

The Latin Vulgate bible defines this word as rapamere (sorry, I may be spelling this wrong) our English words rapt and rapture come from the Latin past participial. The English word is derived from that verb.

Then He says in my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would tell you. Heaven, this idiom teaches us that we will have a specially designed environment within the Fathers house. This world is not the Fathers house, and only in the “New Jerusalem†will the Father come to the earth, and we will dwell with Him there forever. :D

I do not believe I ever said the ratpure was not "literal" - I said it was not literally a "catching up of people in the air". As I hoped was clear, I am arguing that the real event to which the "catching up in the air" language corresponds is the transformation of the living at a future return of Christ.

Looking at your later clarification of your belief about rapture, you are still relating the two accounts from Paul's letter to the Thessalonians and Paul's letter to the Corinthians~ I believe... that Paul is using a mixed metaphore to relate the two concepts into one. :nod

You can indeed escape this conclusion if you know your Old Testament. Paul is employing a complex metaphor - he is not intending his readers to think in term of believers being literally snatched up into heaven.

I have some checked into some historical evidence and done a look at the use of grammtical wording to check your stance. this is what I found.


The ancient Jewish wedding traditions are not widely known today. However, the traditional themes in a Jewish wedding is a pattern of the biblical rapture description. The wedding opens with the betrothal, the perspective Bridegroom covenants and pays the price for His bride, and then he leaves and his bride is sanctified (set aside to wait).

While the Bridegroom is absent an indeterminate time, there is no preconditioned event that would have to take place before he will return to marry her. Sometimes it would be a yearlong separation. Meanwhile~ she would prepare her trousseau, making herself ready for their marriage. In Matthew 25 the brides are awaiting the bridegrooms return and this is a pattern of this Jewish tradition. The bride expects his return but does not know when it will come; even the groom does not know the day nor the hour that he will marry his bride. Only the father of the bridegroom can say when the wedding day will happen.

Also during his absence from his bride, the groom is working on the bridal chamber that he is adding to his father’s house. Then unexpectedly, the father would tell the bridegroom to go and get his bride, often it was in the middle of the night, at midnight, and the friends of the bridegroom would go with him. There was a shout given to make the bride aware that her bridegroom was coming. Then she and her bridesmaids would take their lamps into the street and meet the bridegroom and the wedding party there. The bridegroom would take his bride to the wedding chamber that he had prepared and consummate their marriage. Then the bride groom would appear to the waiting wedding party and announce that she was his wife to his father and the guests~ and the seven day wedding feast would begin.
:D

The rapture as it is detailed would have been literally known by the early Christians who were mostly Jews because this was their own wedding tradition. It is important to look into the historical customs of the Jewish nation to see why these kinds of references are made by paul in this text. :yes

If heaven is not a literal place (other than earth) then why does Jesus say He was "going" there?

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Further, Paul was explaining two separate aspects of the rapture event to two separate groups of Christians, who had different questions regarding it. The Thessalonians and the Corinthians each had their own concerns.

In the letter to the Thessalonians we look at the context to understand what Paul is explaining and why he is explaining it in this manner. In the three weeks Paul was with the Thessalonians, he emphasized the soon return of Jesus, and the Thessalonians believed it seriously, it is at least part of the reason that they were the kind of church Paul complimented so highly.

But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. 1 Thes 4:9

But after Paul left, they were obviously very concerned about those Christians who died before Jesus came back. They were sorrowing because of the idea that these Christians might miss out on the rapture event~ and that they might miss the victory and blessing of Jesus’ coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 1 Thes 4:13

I often admire Vic’s consistency in looking into the historical context of custom and language for proper interpretation of the word. Here is an excellent reason for using the historical understanding of this text to be able to discern the language being used.

Sleep was a common way to express death in the ancient world, but among unbelievers it was almost always seen as an eternal sleep. When my mom died eight years ago, I wanted to know for the same reasons these Christains had wanted to know, what happened to her. She believed in Jesus as these believers loved ones had.

Ancient philosophers reveal what the ancient unbelieving world thought of death…
“Of a man once dead there is no resurrection.†(Aeschylus)
“Hopes are among the living, the dead are without hope.†(Theocritus)
“Suns may set and rise again but we, when once our brief light goes down, must sleep an endless night.†(Catullus) From some recent history class studies.

Christians in Paul’s time called death sleep, but the emphasis was on the idea of rest. Christians later influenced by pagan rituals around death, began to call their burial places “cemeteries,†which means, “dormitories†or “sleeping places.†:nod

BUT NOTE the Bible never describes the death of the "unbeliever" as sleep, for there is no rest, peace or comfort for them in death. Yet is is also true that the Bible teaches directly that there is no resting place of death for the believer as well.

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8 :shades

For the Christian who dies in faith in Christ today… leaving this body is like laying down for a nap and waking in glory. :D It is moving, not dying. For these reasons, Christians should not sorrow as others who have no hope when their loved ones die. Because their loved ones in Jesus before death are in Jesus (presence) after death.

The great difference between the saved and unsaved is this:

When an unredeemed sinner dies, we mourn for them. When a believer dies we only mourn for ourselves, because they are with the Lord. :yes

Common on an ancient tombs in my history book was this sad inscription:
I was not
I became
I am not
I care not

BUT one of the most common Christian epitaphs from the catacombs was;
IN PEACE

But Paul was telling them (and us today) the dead IN CHRIST are at NO disadvantage to us. They will also be raised from the dead ~ to be raptured along with us ~ except they will raise up just before we do and we will all meet the Lord in the air.;)

This is a bit long to put into a single post ~ so I will include the rest in a second post. :shades

bonnie

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Drew~

Here is the second half of my biblical rebuttal to your contention that the scripture from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is a metaphor of what he wrote in Corinthians 15:51-54. I contend that both of Paul’s descriptions of the rapture and the resurrection that follows are literal. :D

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thes. 4:13-18

Paul stresses that this was an authoritative command, though we do not know whether Paul received this by direct revelation or if it was an unrecorded saying of Jesus before He died and was resurrected. BUT one way or another ~ this revelation came from Jesus ~ and did not originate with Paul.

I do not for a minute think that this momentous word from Christ to us is an [allusive description filled with mixed metaphor] as you assert. I receive this text as Paul gives it, an accounting of an event to come. If it is a metaphor then where does the metaphor begin Drew? Only after the Lord descends from heaven… ahem… BTW if there is no literal place for the Lord to descend from (no heaven other-worldly) then why is He descending? Do you believe that Jesus ascended to heaven? That He sits at the right hand of the Father as we live today? This kind of interpretation can cast doubt on every miraculous aspect of scripture. I can see how it becomes difficult for you to believe in a literal fulfillment of prophetic events when you can explain them away using erroneous grammatical thinking.

Also, why do you accept the trumpet to be literal, or perhaps that is only a metaphorical figure as well in your estimation. If so, then how are you able to compare in these verses? If you say it is a comparison to another text, by what authority of scripture do you draw that conclusion? Where does scripture reveal that these verses are to be compared?

Was the account of Paul’s conversion only a metaphor as well, or did he actually see a light brighter than the sun with Jesus Christ’s presence before him? :hm

Metaphors are comparisons that show how two things that are not alike in most ways are similar in one important way. Metaphors are a way to describe something. Authors use them to make their writing more interesting or entertaining. Exactly what is Paul comparing, and for what purpose is he using a mixed metaphor? I do not see any metaphors at all in either text.
Here is an actual metaphor to show what I mean.

“His convicting words made me feel like laundry hanging on a line, all inside out, and flapping in the wind for all to see.â€Â

My example tells us that the convicting words are nothing like laundry normally, but that they are when compared to the way laundry is EXPOSED as my conscience is under convicting words. Notice how the comparison is made within the same sentence, or at least within the same thought? Metaphors do not skip from one chapter to a later one; nor as in this case, from one letter to one group of Christians to another letter addressing a completely different group of Christains.

So give us the explanation of how this scripture is metaphorical if you will. How is this scripture comparative? How is Paul’s metaphor developed, it obviously relates to the letter he wrote to the Corinthians, but no metaphor can be drawn from two separate letters to two different people groups. How could the Thessalonians recognize it as a metaphor if they had not read the other letter and made this “supposed connection�

You make a vague reference of this construction of Paul’s as alluding to

“the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.â€Â

What scripture is that? Why would Paul not give us ~ and the Thessalonians ~ the very scriptures in this text that you say he is comparing this “metaphor†to?

That is not the way metaphors work Drew. Metaphor’s explicitly detail the two things they compare within the metaphor sentence or at least within the same sentence or thought.
I agree with you on one point~ that Paul is describing the same event in the Corinthian passage; Futurists have been pointing to these two texts as proof of rapture for eons.

Clearly the the same scenario is being described in both texts – unless the dead in Christ will be raised twice. Note the structural parallels

1. Both accounts have a trumpet sounding.

2. Both accounts have the dead being raised.

The reason why many Preterists defunct the Thessalonian 4:13-18 scripture (as metaphor, allegory, spiritualized etcetera… is because is it is such a proof text.) Proof that there must be a resurrection of the believers, one that will happen in a violent manner, which is why it is often referred to as a snatching away. There are many examples in the Old Testament too, Enoch and Lot are prime ones, who were snatched out BEFORE the great destruction that came. Christ is the first resurrected and we will follow Him and be resurrected. If you think it through ~ and you believe that there is a resurrection ~ you must also believe in a rapture as well. . .:huh? If you believe it has already come, as many Preterists do, then where is the destruction that follows it so horrendously?

Because at some point, whether before, during, or after the tribulation all those who believe in Jesus Christ will receive their resurrected bodies.:yes I think “most†Christians agree with that.
Whenever that happens ~ there will be (some believers that have not died yet). Since there will be some believers that are still alive in their mortal bodies… at that point in which all believers will receive their new bodies ~ resurrection ~ IS the rapture...

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet . . . the dead will be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed 1 Cor. 15:50-54

By the words; “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Godâ€Â, Paul is not saying, “material things can not inherit the kingdom of God,†because Jesus’ resurrection body was a material body. :shock The word corruption does not mean moral or ethical corruption, but physical, material corruption. These bodies which are subject to sickness, disease, injury, and one-day decay, are unsuited to heaven. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

A mystery is simply a thing to be understood by spiritual, rather than by merely human understanding. Paul will tell the Corinthian Christians something they could not have known by reason or by research. God had to reveal it to them. . .

Since sleep is a softer way of describing the death of a believer who only momentarily dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord, Paul is telling us that not all Christians will die, but there will be a “final generation†who will be transformed into resurrection bodies at the return of Jesus before they ever face death.

This particular scripture is not changed into a metaphor or an allegory or spiritualized by many Preterists because they like to say that the words ~ we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed mean that Paul predicted Jesus would come in his lifetime. However it is just as easy to recognize that Paul is not necessarily referring to only believers of his day with the wordall; But is using this word ALL to correctly embrace all believers, over all time…

Also, it was right and proper for Paul to live as if the coming of Jesus was imminent, though he did not in fact know when Jesus would return. Most all Christians adhere to the word that says; NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR OF CHRISTS RETURN. When writing Scripture, Paul was not omniscient, if he had been his walk would not require faith! And ALL Christians walk by faith ~ not by sight.

The plain fact is that Paul did not know when these events would tke place, and nowhere does he claim to know. So when he says WE he means “we believersâ€Â.

A beautiful and hope filled scripture isn’t it?
Looking FORWARD to all the word promises… bonnie :eyebrow

 

[Osgiliath]

That was an excellent post bonnie.

 

[parousia70]

Was the account of Paul’s conversion only a metaphor as well, or did he actually see a light brighter than the sun with Jesus Christ’s presence before him? :hm

If it was Literal, it fulfilled Acts 1:11

Because at some point, whether before, during, or after the tribulation all those who believe in Jesus Christ will receive their resurrected bodies.:yes I think “most†Christians agree with that.
Whenever that happens ~ there will be (some believers that have not died yet). Since there will be some believers that are still alive in their mortal bodies… at that point in which all believers will receive their new bodies ~ resurrection ~ IS the rapture...

But Paul dosen't say "at that point (of the dead being raised) will the the living be caught up.
Rather, he says the dead shall be raised FIRST, AFTER THAT (at some undisclosed later time) the living shall be caught up.

BIG diference.

Also, it was right and proper for Paul to live as if the coming of Jesus was imminent, though he did not in fact know when Jesus would return.

Yet the futurist must assert Paul was in fact WRONG in his expectation.

I am very blessed to be the father of 3 beautiful kids.
In every instance of each pregnancy, my wife and I were COMPLETELY IGNORANT of the day and hour each Child would eventually be born, however we knew it would be sometime within 42 weeks of conception.

Futurists love to make ignorance of the day and hour into ignorance of the generation, but no scripture or actual human experience ( as I just demonstrated) mandates any such thing.

 

[westtexas]

I hope no-one minds a response from the new kid on the block. Parousia, if as you state, the dead are raised and then sometime in the future the living are caught up, what is your response to 1 Cor 15:52 where the dead are raised and we are changed at the last trumpet IN A FLASH, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE?

Your brother in Christ, Westtexas

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Hi Osgiliath!

It is GOOD to see you in here, and thanks for the encouragment.

I think I did better with this argument because am an English major at college and when we start talking grammar and metaphors at least I have "my own ball" in the game.

:waving Heya parousia~

How R you? :D

So~ are you saying that the ascension of Christ was fufilled in Jesus' appearance to paul then? If so~ give us a declarative statement from the word that makes it obvious. One like this one...

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.â€Â

Think about this particular ascension... of Christ. It is very unique.

First of all, why did Jesus ascend in this manner? He certainly could have simply “vanished†to appear in the Father’s presence in a secret manner. But Jesus had been appearing and reappearing during the last 40 days since His resurrection. He wanted His followers to know that He was gone for good. :yes

And THIS last ascension was specified to detail THE WAY He will return. :nod

The Bible testifies that Jesus ascended into heaven in full view of His disciples.

Where did He go? To His rightful palce next to the Father immediately...
Scripture provides further testimony of this fact. Stephen was the first believer put to death for his faith in Christ. As he was dying by stoning, he looked up into heaven and saw Jesus.

See Acts 7:55,56.

Also~ the apostle John has Christ predicting His ascension saying;

What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where he was before?" John 6:62

So the disciples should have been expecting that they would witness visibly Jesus' return to heaven.

Jesus could not have "returned" to only Paul this was a specialappearance of Christ obviously meant for a single man's conversion which is what the Bible says it was intended to do, which Paul reports by the Holy Spirit as part of his testimony at least three times in Acts.

Jesus will return just as He left ~ physically, visibly, and to the Mount of Olives. Not the Damascus road. He will recieve the beliving Body of Christ who "remain" at that time... Golly~ You are NOT saying or even hinting that Paul was left behind? :crazy

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, for the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zech 14:3-5

Just when it seems that all hope is gone for Jerusalem and the Lord's people, Israel, then the Lord will RETURN and fight for His people! This speaks of the Lord ~ Jesus, as God the Son ~physically returning to physical earth and setting His feet on the Mount of Olives. At that time a great split will cut the Mount of Olives in two halves, and the persecuted people of Jerusalem will flee through the valley made by that split. :D

Jesus will touch His feet to the Mount of Olives when He returns in glory with all the saints, the armies of heaven described in Revelation 19:14. OH YEAH!

It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one day which is known to the Lord; neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be; “The Lord is one,†and His name one. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king’s winepresses. The people shall dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zech 14:6-11 :shades

See~ the glory of Jerusalem in the Messiah’s kingdom. The lights we guide our lives by will diminish, but God will bring His own light. Jerusalem will no longer be a dry city, but a glorious river will flow from the city and branch off both east and west, and it will be a never ending flow ~in both summer and winter it will be~ . God will gloriously save and restore Jerusalem, making it the capital city of the millennial earth. :biglol Look at God's Mighty protection of His children Isreal...Since the mountains around Jerusalem are no longer needed as a defense, they can be flattened into a plain. And my prayers for the peace of jerusalem will be answered, for they will SURELY live in peace. :heart


GOD KEEPS ALL HIS PROMISES... or should we say that you or I or the backslidding of the Jewish nation will somehow THWART the SVOEREIGN POWER of GOD? Oh no my dear brother, God will see to it, for He has decalred it in His word.

WHEN did this promise to Israel happen, tell me when "in the past history" have we seen the world ruled from Jerusalem with the Lord Jesus Christ as it's KING?

Okay this post is SO long..........

In the marveling wonder of our God... bonnie :infinity

 

[Matthew24:34]

:waving Drew~

Here is the second half of my biblical rebuttal to your contention that the scripture from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is a metaphor of what he wrote in Corinthians 15:51-54. I contend that both of Paul’s descriptions of the rapture and the resurrection that follows are literal. :D

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thes. 4:13-18

Paul stresses that this was an authoritative command, though we do not know whether Paul received this by direct revelation or if it was an unrecorded saying of Jesus before He died and was resurrected. BUT one way or another ~ this revelation came from Jesus ~ and did not originate with Paul.

I do not for a minute think that this momentous word from Christ to us is an [allusive description filled with mixed metaphor] as you assert. I receive this text as Paul gives it, an accounting of an event to come. If it is a metaphor then where does the metaphor begin Drew? Only after the Lord descends from heaven… ahem… BTW if there is no literal place for the Lord to descend from (no heaven other-worldly) then why is He descending? Do you believe that Jesus ascended to heaven? That He sits at the right hand of the Father as we live today? This kind of interpretation can cast doubt on every miraculous aspect of scripture. I can see how it becomes difficult for you to believe in a literal fulfillment of prophetic events when you can explain them away using erroneous grammatical thinking.

Also, why do you accept the trumpet to be literal, or perhaps that is only a metaphorical figure as well in your estimation. If so, then how are you able to compare in these verses? If you say it is a comparison to another text, by what authority of scripture do you draw that conclusion? Where does scripture reveal that these verses are to be compared?

Was the account of Paul’s conversion only a metaphor as well, or did he actually see a light brighter than the sun with Jesus Christ’s presence before him? :hm

Metaphors are comparisons that show how two things that are not alike in most ways are similar in one important way. Metaphors are a way to describe something. Authors use them to make their writing more interesting or entertaining. Exactly what is Paul comparing, and for what purpose is he using a mixed metaphor? I do not see any metaphors at all in either text.
Here is an actual metaphor to show what I mean.

“His convicting words made me feel like laundry hanging on a line, all inside out, and flapping in the wind for all to see.â€Â

My example tells us that the convicting words are nothing like laundry normally, but that they are when compared to the way laundry is EXPOSED as my conscience is under convicting words. Notice how the comparison is made within the same sentence, or at least within the same thought? Metaphors do not skip from one chapter to a later one; nor as in this case, from one letter to one group of Christians to another letter addressing a completely different group of Christains.

So give us the explanation of how this scripture is metaphorical if you will. How is this scripture comparative? How is Paul’s metaphor developed, it obviously relates to the letter he wrote to the Corinthians, but no metaphor can be drawn from two separate letters to two different people groups. How could the Thessalonians recognize it as a metaphor if they had not read the other letter and made this “supposed connection�

You make a vague reference of this construction of Paul’s as alluding to [quote:4hmfyj9y] “the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.â€Â

What scripture is that? Why would Paul not give us ~ and the Thessalonians ~ the very scriptures in this text that you say he is comparing this “metaphor†to?

That is not the way metaphors work Drew. Metaphor’s explicitly detail the two things they compare within the metaphor sentence or at least within the same sentence or thought.
I agree with you on one point~ that Paul is describing the same event in the Corinthian passage; Futurists have been pointing to these two texts as proof of rapture for eons.

Clearly the the same scenario is being described in both texts – unless the dead in Christ will be raised twice. Note the structural parallels

1. Both accounts have a trumpet sounding.

2. Both accounts have the dead being raised.

The reason why many Preterists defunct the Thessalonian 4:13-18 scripture (as metaphor, allegory, spiritualized etcetera… is because is it is such a proof text.) Proof that there must be a resurrection of the believers, one that will happen in a violent manner, which is why it is often referred to as a snatching away. There are many examples in the Old Testament too, Enoch and Lot are prime ones, who were snatched out BEFORE the great destruction that came. Christ is the first resurrected and we will follow Him and be resurrected. If you think it through ~ and you believe that there is a resurrection ~ you must also believe in a rapture as well. . .:huh? If you believe it has already come, as many Preterists do, then where is the destruction that follows it so horrendously?

Because at some point, whether before, during, or after the tribulation all those who believe in Jesus Christ will receive their resurrected bodies.:yes I think “most†Christians agree with that.
Whenever that happens ~ there will be (some believers that have not died yet). Since there will be some believers that are still alive in their mortal bodies… at that point in which all believers will receive their new bodies ~ resurrection ~ IS the rapture...

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet . . . the dead will be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed 1 Cor. 15:50-54

By the words; “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Godâ€Â, Paul is not saying, “material things can not inherit the kingdom of God,†because Jesus’ resurrection body was a material body. :shock The word corruption does not mean moral or ethical corruption, but physical, material corruption. These bodies which are subject to sickness, disease, injury, and one-day decay, are unsuited to heaven. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

A mystery is simply a thing to be understood by spiritual, rather than by merely human understanding. Paul will tell the Corinthian Christians something they could not have known by reason or by research. God had to reveal it to them. . .

Since sleep is a softer way of describing the death of a believer who only momentarily dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord, Paul is telling us that not all Christians will die, but there will be a “final generation†who will be transformed into resurrection bodies at the return of Jesus before they ever face death.

This particular scripture is not changed into a metaphor or an allegory or spiritualized by many Preterists because they like to say that the words ~ we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed mean that Paul predicted Jesus would come in his lifetime. However it is just as easy to recognize that Paul is not necessarily referring to only believers of his day with the wordall; But is using this word ALL to correctly embrace all believers, over all time…

Also, it was right and proper for Paul to live as if the coming of Jesus was imminent, though he did not in fact know when Jesus would return. Most all Christians adhere to the word that says; NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR OF CHRISTS RETURN. When writing Scripture, Paul was not omniscient, if he had been his walk would not require faith! And ALL Christians walk by faith ~ not by sight.

The plain fact is that Paul did not know when these events would take place, and nowhere does he claim to know. So when he says WE he means “we believersâ€Â.

A beautiful and hope filled scripture isn’t it?
Looking FORWARD to all the word promises… bonnie :eyebrow[/quote:4hmfyj9y]

Sheshisown: You and all believers should know the day and the hour now since it occurred in the very generation Jesus predicted it would! By looking back to A.D. 70, we can NOW know the day and the hour. It is an impotent argument to say that Jesus did not know when He would return simply because while He was on this earth, He didn't know the DAY or the HOUR. How much clearer could He have made it--He knew the generation--"THIS generation!" As for Paul--of course he knew the general time frame when the Lord would return. He spoke of their salvation being nearer than when they first believed (Romans 13:11). How do you suppose he knew the many doctrines he knew--doctrines he expounded in his epistles? He was given special revelation. Why would he not also know the timing of the Lord's return? He wrote--"The night is far spent; the day is at hand" (Romans 13:12).

Furthermore, when Paul said "WE" he meant first of all himself and those of his day. He was writing to specific people about things concerning THEM personally. When you read Thessalonians and Corinthians, you are reading someone else's mail! THEY expected those things Paul wrote to happen to THEM. We see the "trumpet" in both the Thessalonian and Corinthian passages. This is the same trumpet of Matthew 24 which was to be fulfilled in THAT generation. We see the gathering together of the elect from the four winds and the catching up to Christ of the dead and living in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. These are depictions of the same event--an event that Jesus clearly indicated was to happen in THAT generation in which He was then living.

Also, I don't know what preterists you talk to, but there are many who do not spiritualize the things of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. I believe those things happened to THOSE first-century saints just as Paul said they would. THEY were the first-fruits of the promises made. THEY were changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. THEY who were alive and remained were caught up together with the dead in Christ and met the Lord in the air. That was the blessed hope and they comforted one another with those words through the trials and the tribulations until the Lord came for THEM in A. D. 70. Jesus told those of His day, those disciples right there with Him--"I will come again to receive YOU unto Myself that where I am there YOU may be also"--"Let not YOUR hearts be troubled!" (John 14).

Believers are still given resurrection bodies at death--individually. But we were not the first.

Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

:waving Heya parousia~

How R you? :D

I am Blessed, thank you for asking! How are you?

So~ are you saying that the ascension of Christ was fufilled in Jesus' appearance to paul then? If so~ give us a declarative statement from the word that makes it obvious. One like this one...

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.â€Â

Think about this particular ascension... of Christ. It is very unique.

Yes it was.

First of all, why did Jesus ascend in this manner? He certainly could have simply “vanished†to appear in the Father’s presence in a secret manner. But Jesus had been appearing and reappearing during the last 40 days since His resurrection. He wanted His followers to know that He was gone for good. :yes

And THIS last ascension was specified to detail THE WAY He will return. :nod

The Bible testifies that Jesus ascended into heaven in full view of His disciples.

And ONLY His Disciples.
The Futurist expectation of a globally visible return is in no way in "like manner" as this "very unique" (as you put it) ascension.

Stephen was the first believer put to death for his faith in Christ. As he was dying by stoning, he looked up into heaven and saw Jesus.

Another fulfillment of Acts 1:11

Jesus will return just as He left ~ physically, visibly, and to the Mount of Olives.

JUST as He left?
.. as a humble servant? visible only to His disciples? without trumpets and armies of angels?
Just as He left?

 

[Matthew24:34]

:waving Drew~

Here is the second half of my biblical rebuttal to your contention that the scripture from 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is a metaphor of what he wrote in Corinthians 15:51-54. I contend that both of Paul’s descriptions of the rapture and the resurrection that follows are literal. :D

Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thes. 4:13-18

Paul stresses that this was an authoritative command, though we do not know whether Paul received this by direct revelation or if it was an unrecorded saying of Jesus before He died and was resurrected. BUT one way or another ~ this revelation came from Jesus ~ and did not originate with Paul.

I do not for a minute think that this momentous word from Christ to us is an [allusive description filled with mixed metaphor] as you assert. I receive this text as Paul gives it, an accounting of an event to come. If it is a metaphor then where does the metaphor begin Drew? Only after the Lord descends from heaven… ahem… BTW if there is no literal place for the Lord to descend from (no heaven other-worldly) then why is He descending? Do you believe that Jesus ascended to heaven? That He sits at the right hand of the Father as we live today? This kind of interpretation can cast doubt on every miraculous aspect of scripture. I can see how it becomes difficult for you to believe in a literal fulfillment of prophetic events when you can explain them away using erroneous grammatical thinking.

Also, why do you accept the trumpet to be literal, or perhaps that is only a metaphorical figure as well in your estimation. If so, then how are you able to compare in these verses? If you say it is a comparison to another text, by what authority of scripture do you draw that conclusion? Where does scripture reveal that these verses are to be compared?

Was the account of Paul’s conversion only a metaphor as well, or did he actually see a light brighter than the sun with Jesus Christ’s presence before him? :hm

Metaphors are comparisons that show how two things that are not alike in most ways are similar in one important way. Metaphors are a way to describe something. Authors use them to make their writing more interesting or entertaining. Exactly what is Paul comparing, and for what purpose is he using a mixed metaphor? I do not see any metaphors at all in either text.
Here is an actual metaphor to show what I mean.

“His convicting words made me feel like laundry hanging on a line, all inside out, and flapping in the wind for all to see.â€Â

My example tells us that the convicting words are nothing like laundry normally, but that they are when compared to the way laundry is EXPOSED as my conscience is under convicting words. Notice how the comparison is made within the same sentence, or at least within the same thought? Metaphors do not skip from one chapter to a later one; nor as in this case, from one letter to one group of Christians to another letter addressing a completely different group of Christains.

So give us the explanation of how this scripture is metaphorical if you will. How is this scripture comparative? How is Paul’s metaphor developed, it obviously relates to the letter he wrote to the Corinthians, but no metaphor can be drawn from two separate letters to two different people groups. How could the Thessalonians recognize it as a metaphor if they had not read the other letter and made this “supposed connection�

You make a vague reference of this construction of Paul’s as alluding to [quote:25oodsrf] “the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.â€Â

What scripture is that? Why would Paul not give us ~ and the Thessalonians ~ the very scriptures in this text that you say he is comparing this “metaphor†to?

That is not the way metaphors work Drew. Metaphor’s explicitly detail the two things they compare within the metaphor sentence or at least within the same sentence or thought.
I agree with you on one point~ that Paul is describing the same event in the Corinthian passage; Futurists have been pointing to these two texts as proof of rapture for eons.
[quote:25oodsrf] Clearly the the same scenario is being described in both texts – unless the dead in Christ will be raised twice. Note the structural parallels

1. Both accounts have a trumpet sounding.

2. Both accounts have the dead being raised.

The reason why many Preterists defunct the Thessalonian 4:13-18 scripture (as metaphor, allegory, spiritualized etcetera… is because is it is such a proof text.) Proof that there must be a resurrection of the believers, one that will happen in a violent manner, which is why it is often referred to as a snatching away. There are many examples in the Old Testament too, Enoch and Lot are prime ones, who were snatched out BEFORE the great destruction that came. Christ is the first resurrected and we will follow Him and be resurrected. If you think it through ~ and you believe that there is a resurrection ~ you must also believe in a rapture as well. . .:huh? If you believe it has already come, as many Preterists do, then where is the destruction that follows it so horrendously?

Because at some point, whether before, during, or after the tribulation all those who believe in Jesus Christ will receive their resurrected bodies.:yes I think “most†Christians agree with that.
Whenever that happens ~ there will be (some believers that have not died yet). Since there will be some believers that are still alive in their mortal bodies… at that point in which all believers will receive their new bodies ~ resurrection ~ IS the rapture...

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet . . . the dead will be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed 1 Cor. 15:50-54

By the words; “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Godâ€Â, Paul is not saying, “material things can not inherit the kingdom of God,†because Jesus’ resurrection body was a material body. :shock The word corruption does not mean moral or ethical corruption, but physical, material corruption. These bodies which are subject to sickness, disease, injury, and one-day decay, are unsuited to heaven. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

A mystery is simply a thing to be understood by spiritual, rather than by merely human understanding. Paul will tell the Corinthian Christians something they could not have known by reason or by research. God had to reveal it to them. . .

Since sleep is a softer way of describing the death of a believer who only momentarily dies and is immediately in the presence of the Lord, Paul is telling us that not all Christians will die, but there will be a “final generation†who will be transformed into resurrection bodies at the return of Jesus before they ever face death.

This particular scripture is not changed into a metaphor or an allegory or spiritualized by many Preterists because they like to say that the words ~ we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed mean that Paul predicted Jesus would come in his lifetime. However it is just as easy to recognize that Paul is not necessarily referring to only believers of his day with the wordall; But is using this word ALL to correctly embrace all believers, over all time…

Also, it was right and proper for Paul to live as if the coming of Jesus was imminent, though he did not in fact know when Jesus would return. Most all Christians adhere to the word that says; NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR OF CHRISTS RETURN. When writing Scripture, Paul was not omniscient, if he had been his walk would not require faith! And ALL Christians walk by faith ~ not by sight.

The plain fact is that Paul did not know when these events would take place, and nowhere does he claim to know. So when he says WE he means “we believersâ€Â.

A beautiful and hope filled scripture isn’t it?
Looking FORWARD to all the word promises… bonnie :eyebrow[/quote:25oodsrf]

Sheshisown: You and all believers should know the day and the hour now since it occurred in the very generation Jesus predicted it would! By looking back to A.D. 70, we can NOW know the day and the hour. It is an impotent argument to say that Jesus did not know when He would return simply because while He was on this earth, He didn't know the DAY or the HOUR. How much clearer could He have made it--He knew the generation--"THIS generation!" As for Paul--of course he knew the general time frame when the Lord would return. He spoke of their salvation being nearer than when they first believed (Romans 13:11). How do you suppose he knew the many doctrines he knew--doctrines he expounded in his epistles? He was given special revelation. Why would he not also know the timing of the Lord's return? He wrote--"The night is far spent; the day is at hand" (Romans 13:12).

Furthermore, when Paul said "WE" he meant first of all himself and those of his day. He was writing to specific people about things concerning THEM personally. When you read Thessalonians and Corinthians, you are reading someone else's mail! THEY expected those things Paul wrote to happen to THEM. We see the "trumpet" in both the Thessalonian and Corinthian passages. This is the same trumpet of Matthew 24 which was to be fulfilled in THAT generation. We see the gathering together of the elect from the four winds and the catching up to Christ of the dead and living in both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. These are depictions of the same event--an event that Jesus clearly indicated was to happen in THAT generation in which He was then living.

Also, I don't know what preterists you talk to, but there are many who do not spiritualize the things of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. I believe those things happened to THOSE first-century saints just as Paul said they would. THEY were the first-fruits of the promises made. THEY were changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. THEY who were alive and remained were caught up together with the dead in Christ and met the Lord in the air. That was the blessed hope and they comforted one another with those words through the trials and the tribulations until the Lord came for THEM in A. D. 70. Jesus told those of His day, those disciples right there with Him--"I will come again to receive YOU unto Myself that where I am there YOU may be also"--"Let not YOUR hearts be troubled!" (John 14).

Believers are still given resurrection bodies at death--individually. But we were not the first.

Matthew24:34[/quote:25oodsrf]

:waving Hi Osgiliath!

It is GOOD to see you in here, and thanks for the encouragment.

I think I did better with this argument because am an English major at college and when we start talking grammar and metaphors at least I have "my own ball" in the game.

:waving Heya parousia~

How R you? :D

So~ are you saying that the ascension of Christ was fufilled in Jesus' appearance to paul then? If so~ give us a declarative statement from the word that makes it obvious. One like this one...

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.â€Â

Think about this particular ascension... of Christ. It is very unique.

First of all, why did Jesus ascend in this manner? He certainly could have simply “vanished†to appear in the Father’s presence in a secret manner. But Jesus had been appearing and reappearing during the last 40 days since His resurrection. He wanted His followers to know that He was gone for good. :yes

And THIS last ascension was specified to detail THE WAY He will return. :nod

The Bible testifies that Jesus ascended into heaven in full view of His disciples.

Where did He go? To His rightful palce next to the Father immediately...
Scripture provides further testimony of this fact. Stephen was the first believer put to death for his faith in Christ. As he was dying by stoning, he looked up into heaven and saw Jesus.

See Acts 7:55,56.

Also~ the apostle John has Christ predicting His ascension saying;

What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where he was before?" John 6:62

So the disciples should have been expecting that they would witness visibly Jesus' return to heaven.

Jesus could not have "returned" to only Paul this was a specialappearance of Christ obviously meant for a single man's conversion which is what the Bible says it was intended to do, which Paul reports by the Holy Spirit as part of his testimony at least three times in Acts.

Jesus will return just as He left ~ physically, visibly, and to the Mount of Olives. Not the Damascus road. He will recieve the beliving Body of Christ who "remain" at that time... Golly~ You are NOT saying or even hinting that Paul was left behind? :crazy

Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, for the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zech 14:3-5

Just when it seems that all hope is gone for Jerusalem and the Lord's people, Israel, then the Lord will RETURN and fight for His people! This speaks of the Lord ~ Jesus, as God the Son ~physically returning to physical earth and setting His feet on the Mount of Olives. At that time a great split will cut the Mount of Olives in two halves, and the persecuted people of Jerusalem will flee through the valley made by that split. :D

Jesus will touch His feet to the Mount of Olives when He returns in glory with all the saints, the armies of heaven described in Revelation 19:14. OH YEAH!

It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one day which is known to the Lord; neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be; “The Lord is one,†and His name one. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king’s winepresses. The people shall dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zech 14:6-11 :shades

See~ the glory of Jerusalem in the Messiah’s kingdom. The lights we guide our lives by will diminish, but God will bring His own light. Jerusalem will no longer be a dry city, but a glorious river will flow from the city and branch off both east and west, and it will be a never ending flow ~in both summer and winter it will be~ . God will gloriously save and restore Jerusalem, making it the capital city of the millennial earth. :biglol Look at God's Mighty protection of His children Isreal...Since the mountains around Jerusalem are no longer needed as a defense, they can be flattened into a plain. And my prayers for the peace of jerusalem will be answered, for they will SURELY live in peace. :heart


GOD KEEPS ALL HIS PROMISES... or should we say that you or I or the backslidding of the Jewish nation will somehow THWART the SVOEREIGN POWER of GOD? Oh no my dear brother, God will see to it, for He has decalred it in His word.

WHEN did this promise to Israel happen, tell me when "in the past history" have we seen the world ruled from Jerusalem with the Lord Jesus Christ as it's KING?

Okay this post is SO long..........

In the marveling wonder of our God... bonnie :infinity

sheshisown: Where does it say in Zechariah 14 that the Lord will return and that He will descend to the Mount of Olives? He is simply pictured as standing on the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14 is a post-exilic book--what was the first time following that during which the city was taken, the houses rifled and the women ravished? Was it not in A. D. 70? Why do you look beyond that? Did not Jesus tell His disciples standing right there with Him that THEY were to flee when THEY saw the abomination of desolation? Did He not warn THEM ahead of time of these things (Matthew 24)? According to Josephus, not one Christian remained in the city when Titus and his armies converged upon it! They saw the signs and they escaped--many to Pella. They escaped through His mountain valley (Zech. 14) when He figuratively split the Mount of Olives in two!

Futurists love to string passages together and create a system of eschatology from them--oftentimes without ever ascertaining whether they are speaking of the same thing! We must be careful that we are understanding those OT passages before we use them to form a doctrine! You make a connection between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19. Where does it say in Revelation 19 that His feet touch the Mount of Olives? It doesn't. He is riding a white horse! Furthermore, if you want to make a connection between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19, you must acknowledge that the time frame is still that which was clearly given to John. He was shown those things which were in his day to SHORTLY take place. By the way, I also make a connection between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19--they both deal with Jesus' coming in A. D. 70! Jesus said "I am coming SOON!"

Matthew24:34

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Matthew~

It looks like we are at an impasse, if you insist that my view is distorted and unfounded~ and that all Futurists simply are wrong. How can any discussion continue?

When people debate an issue they usually have a ground they can meet at in the middle, when they do not, their words tend to become defensive and they start "slinging mud". The problem with this is the more mud they sling the less ground they have to stand upon. :nod

I am not interested in wrangling with accusations. Can we simply talk about the escatology?
Also~ I do not consider our discussions doctrinal. None of our views can be literally proven, therefore, no DOCTRINE may be formed from them. That is why we call them "views". End times theology is good for stirring up bible discussions and discovering what is in the text the best we can. Hopefully, we can accomplish that much.

Zechariah 14 has been discussed many times in end times threads... The only real arguments I can see that you present is that the scripture references do not note that Jesus FEET are on the Mount of Olives. Yet it DOES tell us that He is standing on it~ that usually means that the persons feet are touching it. 2

(Also~ these references do not say that Jesus descended to the Mount~ I give you that.)

Would you mind giving me your Josephus source that details this particular historical event? If I read it myself I may see your understanding better. Usually sources are shared to offer credibility to a persons escatology. :yes

There is one very important portion of the Zechariah scripture that you do not develop at all into your view, even with the Josephus account. The fact that it says:

It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one day which is known to the Lord; neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be; “The Lord is one,†and His name one. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king’s winepresses. The people shall dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zech 14:6-11

I do not think we will find (anything from history) that resembles Christ reign over the earth which is given here, where the Lord is the light of the earth, where the valleys and mountains are leveled and Jerusalem is the capitol city from which He rules as King. What about the peace that they live in, where NO LONGER will there be complete destruction and the inhabitants will live there safely... I do not think we can even PRETEND that there is safety in Jerusalem. :nod We ought to see it ALL fulfilled since it is written that way in the word. :D

This particular scripture has a great deal more to say than your Josephus account is telling, would a historian like him, FORGET to tell the rest of the events?

Get back to me... and let's talk escatology like the great Christain men do. :shades bonnie

 

[Matthew24:34]

:waving Matthew~

It looks like we are at an impasse, if you insist that my view is distorted and unfounded~ and that all Futurists simply are wrong. How can any discussion continue?

When people debate an issue they usually have a ground they can meet at in the middle, when they do not, their words tend to become defensive and they start "slinging mud". The problem with this is the more mud they sling the less ground they have to stand upon. :nod

I am not interested in wrangling with accusations. Can we simply talk about the escatology?
Also~ I do not consider our discussions doctrinal. None of our views can be literally proven, therefore, no DOCTRINE may be formed from them. That is why we call them "views". End times theology is good for stirring up bible discussions and discovering what is in the text the best we can. Hopefully, we can accomplish that much.

Zechariah 14 has been discussed many times in end times threads... The only real arguments I can see that you present is that the scripture references do not note that Jesus FEET are on the Mount of Olives. Yet it DOES tell us that He is standing on it~ that usually means that the persons feet are touching it. 2

(Also~ these references do not say that Jesus descended to the Mount~ I give you that.)

Would you mind giving me your Josephus source that details this particular historical event? If I read it myself I may see your understanding better. Usually sources are shared to offer credibility to a persons escatology. :yes

There is one very important portion of the Zechariah scripture that you do not develop at all into your view, even with the Josephus account. The fact that it says:

It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one day which is known to the Lord; neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be; “The Lord is one,†and His name one. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king’s winepresses. The people shall dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zech 14:6-11

I do not think we will find (anything from history) that resembles Christ reign over the earth which is given here, where the Lord is the light of the earth, where the valleys and mountains are leveled and Jerusalem is the capitol city from which He rules as King. What about the peace that they live in, where NO LONGER will there be complete destruction and the inhabitants will live there safely... I do not think we can even PRETEND that there is safety in Jerusalem. :nod We ought to see it ALL fulfilled since it is written that way in the word. :D

This particular scripture has a great deal more to say than your Josephus account is telling, would a historian like him, FORGET to tell the rest of the events?

Get back to me... and let's talk escatology like the great Christain men do. :shades bonnie

Greetings, sheshisown: I will not recant anything I said in my previous post. I am sorry that you were offended and that you wrongly took it as mudslinging, but the fact remains that most futurists I deal with do not know their OT Scriptures. They simply use them to their own ends as they have been taught to do. I know. I was once one of them.

I further vehemently disagree with you that we cannot know doctrine concerning eschatology. Eschatology has been muddled by those who refuse to see what the Scriptures clearly say. Yes, there are things hard to discern, but most can be reasonably figured out if we are willing to lay aside any preconceived ideas and look at them objectively.

I WAS talking eschatology, sheshisown. I don't know what your accusation means! "Great" Christian men hold other Christian men accountable for proper biblical interpretation. I DO consider these discussions matters of doctrine. And I DO believe we can attain wisdom in this area!

As for Josephus, I will be glad to give you any reference you would like since I own and have read his works (The New Complete Works of Josephus, translated by William Whiston. It contains The Antiquities of the Jews and The Wars of the Jews. It would be good for futurists to read this before they throw out that worn-out question--"when did that happen?" Josephus is not infallible--I'm not saying he is--but I believe he was greatly used of God to provide these eyewitness accounts! You seemed to have been accusing me of simply getting my information elsewhere. I DO NOT do that! I am well-read. What I quote, I have studied for myself. I do not copy and paste the works of others. If I cannot put it into my own words, I do not use it (unless, of course, it is a small quote)!

Josephus as an eyewitness goes into great detail describing the plight of the JEWS. The Christian sect is not mentioned. In chapter 20, Josephus relates the account of Cestius' retreat and the pursuit of him by the Jews. During this time, many fled the city "as from a ship when it was going to sink" (p. 633). Again, one would have to read the entire Wars of the Jews (and I suggest you and others do) to see that in all the numerous detailed accounts of the horrors within the walls of Jerusalem, Josephus says nothing concerning Christians. Much is made of the Jewish insurrections within the walls and the atrocities committed by the Jews upon each other. Mention is made of the desecrations within the Temple and the Holy of Holies and the murder of priests and many, many others by the Idumeans and the Zealots. Again, one cannot read the entire Wars of the Jews and find anything concerning believers in Christ. All that is related concerns the Jews and the Jews alone. IF futurists would read these works by Josephus, they would never again wonder how this time could have been the worst of times ever! Absolutely NOTHING compares to it!

The following statement by Josephus strongly coincides with Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24:21--"It is, therefore, impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall, therefore, speak my mind here at once briefly:--That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world" (The Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 10, Paragraph 5, p. 720). Also, according to Josephus, 1,100,000 JEWS (those of the "same nation") died in the siege of Jerusalem and 97,000 were taken into captivity. Nothing is mentioned of any other deaths or any other captives than those belonging to the "same nation"--the Jews! The Christians were simply not there!

Eusebius (A. D. 263-339) corroborates Josephus' account of many fleeing the city. In his book (which I have and from which I am now typing out the quote), Ecclesiastical History, he states: "The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city and lived at a certain town beyond the Jordan called Pella. Here, those who believed in Christ removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself and the whole land of Judea" (p.70).

So, yes, I have added these sources (which I have personally read) to add credibility to BIBLICAL eschatology.

So, let's continue in Zechariah 14 since you have not really commented on what I posted about the first 5 verses! It was my premise, based upon the very words of Zechariah concerning the city being taken, the houses being rifled and the women being ravished, that the very first time such things happened since that post-exilic time was A. D. 70! Why do we skip that and jump far into the distant future from that time? Considering what I just posted concerning Josephus' statement that 1,100,000 Jews were killed during that time and 97,000 were taken into captivity, Zechariah's statement fits quite nicely with that time frame--"Half of the city shall go into captivity [97,000?]. The remnant (the true Jews) were not cut off. They escaped--through His mountain valley!

Verse 6 continues this same time frame with "in that day." This is the same type of symbolic, figurative language as is used in Matthew 24:29--"The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven." All this was to happen in THAT generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived (THIS generation). And did not Jesus come as the living water? Did He not tell that to the Samaritan woman (John 4)? Did not that living water flow beyond Jerusalem to all nations--the Gentiles--through the Gospel? Did He not bring a kingdom? Was He not a king?

As for Jesus' feet--I did NOT say that Jesus feet were not touching. I said there is nothing that says how His feet got there! There is nothing about His descending. That is read into the text by futurists. And again, in Revelation He is on a horse!

How is my calling out futurists for quoting passages of Scripture (especially from the OT) out context "slinging mud." I was not slinging mud, sheshisown--I was making an observation and a justifiable criticism. Something which the "great" men of God often do! I am sorry that you feel that you cannot prove your view. But if many futurists would indeed consider the texts in the best way they can, as you rightly admonish, by giving due attention to audience relevance and context and taking time statements at face value, perhaps they could prove their views. I have personally dealt with many dispensationalists (I once was one) and the majority of them do not know their Bibles. They jump around in the OT and grab out passages that they have not studied. They do not know when the book was written, why it was written, by whom it was written. They do not know the passages that come before the one they are using and they don't know the passages following. Am I putting them down for not knowing, for being unlearned? No! We have all been there at one point or another. My point was and remains without apology--IF we do not know the basic historical setting of a book and the life and times of its author, we should simply leave it alone! Most dispensationalists with which I deal are immature in their Bible knowledge and are guilty of what you were falsely accusing me--of quoting others and of gleaning their knowledge from the prominent teachers of their persuasion.

My words were and continue to be words of encouragement and exhortation--not mudslinging! You may see it that way. I can't help that. But I say these things as a reminder to all of us--be very careful how you use God's Word. We're not doing a book synopsis in literature class in which everyone can have his own opinion as to what the author meant--we are studying God's Word. I am not immune from misusing it--but nothing is more on my mind as I study it! I was in error for over twenty years and I taught that error to others. I repent of that and pray that God has undone in those lives the damage I caused!

This is getting much too long. I will deal with the remainder of Zechariah 14 (in its context) soon! And I really mean "soon!" :yes

Sincerely and in Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur.

What OT prophesy of the arrival of "Rivers of Living Water" did Jesus claim to have already fulfilled here??:

John 7:38

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."

 

[sheshisown]

:waving Matthew~

When you are ready to discuss the rest of the Zechariah account that's cool~ I will wait.

Otherwise, I think we understand where we each stand on the rest of it. You on one side of the debate, me on the other... and neither of us able to prove that their doctrine is absolute. Contention is not my interest here~ it is difficult to converse with a harsh word dear brother.

So~ Parousia~

Are you wanting to go thru these scriptures? Or do you only want to look into a single sentence I quoted from scripture? I cannot really tell what you are asking I'm afraid. That is not your usual through manner in discussion.

:shades bonnie

 

[westtexas]

Matt.24, Can you please tell me where Zech 14:11 fits in with your point of view? You stated many times that A.D.70 was the FIRST post-exilic destruction of Jerusalem. I'll agree with that, it happened again A.D.132(or there about). However, if we apply this verse, the first destruction has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Nor does A.D.132. Verse 11 states "never again will it be destroyed, Jerusalem will be secure." It is the LAST destruction that is being discussed and THAT DAY has yet to come.

Tell me what you think,
Your brother in Christ,
Westtexas

 

[Matthew24:34]

:waving Matthew~

When you are ready to discuss the rest of the Zechariah account that's cool~ I will wait.

Otherwise, I think we understand where we each stand on the rest of it. You on one side of the debate, me on the other... and neither of us able to prove that their doctrine is absolute. Contention is not my interest here~ it is difficult to converse with a harsh word dear brother.

So~ Parousia~

Are you wanting to go thru these scriptures? Or do you only want to look into a single sentence I quoted from scripture? I cannot really tell what you are asking I'm afraid. That is not your usual through manner in discussion.

:shades bonnie

Again, it CAN be proven. Your saying it can't does not make it so, sheshisown! What is harsh! The truth? Sometimes it is! What is so special about eschatology that places it outside the realm of absolutes? Such vagueness is a given for futurists because nothing they say has happened. THEY can't prove their view. How can they be dogmatic? It is difficult if not impossible to be absolute in the framework of nonoccurrence. That is why you say that your view cannot be proven. But because your yet future views cannot be proven does mean that the preterists' fulfilled views cannot!

If contention is not your interest, sheshisown, perhaps you should stay away from certain topics. As long as futurists refuse to accept the plain words of our Lord and the inspired words of His apostles in the area of eschatology, there will always be contention.

Furthermore, I find it terribly annoying that preterists are the ones who are always being told to exegete things when futurists often do not return the favor. I have explained Zechariah 14 at least 3 times now on these threads yet few if any have even attempted to address the 101 time statements that parousia posted. They are ignored by futurists who turn around and immediately refer to their pet passages (e.g. Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38) that they feel trip up and annihilate the entire preterist biblical approach. You yourself have not addressed the 101 time statements. I guess Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38 simply make them all go away! Strange isn't it, how Jesus was very familiar with those passages when He said "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." Funny how Paul, a Pharisee among Pharisees, and John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, who also were very immersed in the OT Scriptures, taught that Jesus was returning in their lifetime!

The sad thing, sheshisown, is that there really have been very few debates here. It has been mostly one-sided. Preterists ask a question. It is answered with a question. Preterists answer the question. Futurists don't like the answer and ask another question, ad infinitum !

So to get back to the question in view here: Many preterists believe in a rapture as found in 1 Thessalonians 4. I will point out that Paul, in using the plural, first-person pronoun WE, clearly meant himself and those of his day. After all, he was writing a personal letter to the Thessalonians concerning their situation in that first-century world. Preterists point this out and they point out that there is really no comfort to those Thessalonians unless the thing of which Paul spoke affected them personally. Ignoring all the context and the audience relevance, futurists will retaliate with "When did that happen?" And you wonder why we sometimes get contentious? To dispensationalists, every WE in the Bible that deals with eschatology refers to US today! Every YOU is ultimate about US. Every time word in an eschatological passage is meaningless because after all "with the Lord . . . . . . .! What would futurists do without 2 Peter 3:8? They would actually have to believe that near means near and soon means soon! May it never be!

The expectation on the part of those believers of that first-century generation is so thick and obvious one could cut it with the proverbial knife. Yet they all hoped and waited and watched and prayed in vain--their Lord never came. They were deceived by Jesus and the Apostles! The NT becomes the most unclear writing in all of history--near means far, soon means later, Jesus was coming to them but He didn't, Peter thought the end of all things was at hand, but it wasn't, James thought the coming of the Lord was at hand, but it wasn't, John actually thought he was seeing and recording things which were to shortly take place, but they weren't. How the angel deceived him! He was told the time was near, but it still hasn't arrived! Jesus said "I am coming SOON," but He didn't--stil hasn't! This is exactly why, sheshisown, that you cannot prove your "view." It does not square with the Scriptures. You are trying to establish as fact a fairy tale!

Paul clearly taught those Thessalonians that "the dead in Christ would rise first," and then THEY, he and his fellow saints, would join them and meet the Lord in the air. How did that "rapture" happen exactly? I don't know. But Paul said it would happen to THEM. I believe him!

My friend, Bonnie, I understand your questions. I really do. I have asked them myself in the twenty some years I remained a dispensationalist. I, like you, loved the Lord and thought I was understanding the Word. But I grew more and more disturbed by the hermeneutical calisthenics I forced to execute in order to remain one. I wish you only the best, Bonnie. I wish for you the same growing discomfort I endured when dealing with time statements and the expectations on the part of those first-century believers. Every time you see a YOU or a WE or a SOON or a NEAR, I pray they will trouble you. As a dispensationalist, I had become so trained to overlook the force of those words, that I don't think I ever really saw them until someone annoyed me and pointed them out. That is perhaps why I sound harsh to you. The Scriptures can be understood, but we must always be willing to re-evaluate in light of further light. There are many things, even as a preterist, that I have not settled in cement in my mind. I am relatively sure that I am properly dividing the word of truth, but I force myself to come again to every passage as though I have never seen it before. Is there something I missed? Does this really say what I think it says? Am I reading something into it that simply is not there? I constantly ask these questions. I do not want to be wrong! I am sure you agree that God's Word demands our utmost respect and diligence. I think such an attitude is reflected in your heart from the posts I read. Keep an open mind. Do not judge us by what others have said. Remember, most preterists were once futurists! Some attacks against preterism are simply unfounded and reflective of misunderstanding. Keep studying, my friend!

Love, in Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Matt.24, Can you please tell me where Zech 14:11 fits in with your point of view? You stated many times that A.D.70 was the FIRST post-exilic destruction of Jerusalem. I'll agree with that, it happened again A.D.132(or there about). However, if we apply this verse, the first destruction has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Nor does A.D.132. Verse 11 states "never again will it be destroyed, Jerusalem will be secure." It is the LAST destruction that is being discussed and THAT DAY has yet to come.

Tell me what you think,
Your brother in Christ,
Westtexas

Greetings, westtexas: That is a very good question. The answer is that there is an Old Jerusalem which involved the OT physical Jews and a New Jerusalem which involves the NT, spiritual Jews. That is the Jerusalem that will never be destroyed. It is found in the kingdom which is not of this world! There is no crying and no pain and no need of light in the New Jerusalem. There is perfect peace in the New Jerusalem, etc. The first destruction which shattered the power of the holy people (Dan. 12) and brought an end to that physical Jerusalem (the city was taken, the houses were rifled, the women were ravished, and half the people were taken into captivity--Zechariah 14), brought about the establishment of the New Jerusalem, the remnant (Zech. 14) who were not destroyed!

Sincerely, in Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Sinthesis]

The ancient Jewish wedding traditions are not widely known today. However, the traditional themes in a Jewish wedding is a pattern of the biblical rapture description. The wedding opens with the betrothal, the perspective Bridegroom covenants and pays the price for His bride, and then he leaves and his bride is sanctified (set aside to wait).

While the Bridegroom is absent an indeterminate time, there is no preconditioned event that would have to take place before he will return to marry her. Sometimes it would be a yearlong separation. Meanwhile~ she would prepare her trousseau, making herself ready for their marriage. In Matthew 25 the brides are awaiting the bridegrooms return and this is a pattern of this Jewish tradition. The bride expects his return but does not know when it will come; even the groom does not know the day nor the hour that he will marry his bride. Only the father of the bridegroom can say when the wedding day will happen.

Also during his absence from his bride, the groom is working on the bridal chamber that he is adding to his father’s house. Then unexpectedly, the father would tell the bridegroom to go and get his bride, often it was in the middle of the night, at midnight, and the friends of the bridegroom would go with him. There was a shout given to make the bride aware that her bridegroom was coming. Then she and her bridesmaids would take their lamps into the street and meet the bridegroom and the wedding party there. The bridegroom would take his bride to the wedding chamber that he had prepared and consummate their marriage. Then the bride groom would appear to the waiting wedding party and announce that she was his wife to his father and the guests~ and the seven day wedding feast would begin.
:D

Thanks for this info.
To a partial preterist it really helps clear up the "Day of the unknown hour?" as posted in that thread. :amen

 

[parousia70]

Verse 11 states "never again will it be destroyed, Jerusalem will be secure." It is the LAST destruction that is being discussed and THAT DAY has yet to come.

Tell me what you think,
Your brother in Christ,
Westtexas

Wes, a couple things here if I may.

First, God said after the flood He would never again destroy the earth:

Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

If that is LITERALLY true, how do you account for your belief that God will again destroy the world?

Second, there is a myriad of Biblical evidence for the hyperbole being employed in the terms "never again, ever shall be, etc...

This same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2).

The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future.

If that is LITERALLY true, how do you account for your belief that there indeed WILL be a greater judgement upon the nation of Israel (or any nation) in our future than the one in Ezekiel 5:9 that was supposed to be the GREATEST EVER?