Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[donadams]

Lol, "saved by grace through faith" does not refer to salvation?

It says saved cos it’s part of the process of salvation

Notice it’s is already done past tense and does not refer to our conversion in Christ
Not of yourselves
And we must abide in Christ and endure to the end to have salvation

Thks


A short catechism!

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in no no Christ & grace))

 

[JLB]

It is not hard to understand that we can love the things of God. What is hard to understand is why some people think loving God is a work that merits salvation, as if obeying the commandment to "love the Lord your God with all your heart" (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, and Luke 10:27) leads to salvation.

Only those who obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved.

We can not earn salvation.

We can only believe and therefore obey the Gospel.


After we are regenerated then the process of transformation begins.

As God sheds abroad His love in our heart by the Holy Spirit, we can begin to love... by His grace.


Grace is the God given divine ability, granted to us so we can do what we could never do on own own.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

The power to live according to God's will; according to the Spirit, and not according to the sinful desires of the flesh.

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14




JLB

 

[JLB]

Sacrifice / sacraments Jn 1:16-17 Jn 1:29

No "sacraments" mentioned in these verses.

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:16-17


Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But this is demonstrably false, as I've already explained.

Brother, I have given scripture after scripture that shows us His word is referred to as "the Truth" in scripture.


We are born again by obeying the Gospel, the truth.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


The Truth is both the person of Jesus Christ, and His words:

His Gospel
His doctrine
His commandments


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Jesus Christ is the truth. His words are the truth.






JLB

 

[JLB]

None of these verses indicate salvation by works, and none of these verses co-mingle the meaning of "faith" and "obedience".

I have never said or implied "salvation by works".


Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


Surely you see the phrase "obey the Gospel" in these scriptures, right?

Do you believe people are saved by "disobeying the Gospel" ?

Obeying His Gospel, obeying His commandments, or obeying His doctrine, is in fact obeying the Lord Jesus.

Why would you believe obeying Jesus as your Lord is "salvation by works'?

If you don't obey Jesus, He is not your Lord.

Here, I will let Him speak for Himself, concerning this matter -

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is a pretty cut and dry statement, but it is hard to follow to its logical conclusion. We give evidence that we hate God every time we sin?

So true.
Jesus said we can't serve two master, and that we will love the one and hate the other...in Matt 6:24.
The cure ?
Obey God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

This post has a bunch of red flags. Can you explain how making "belief in Christ" synonymous with "obedience to Christ" is not turning faith into works?

The only "works" written against in the bible are the "works" of the Mosaic Law.
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc., will save no one.
Faith begets deeds !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Lol, "saved by grace through faith" does not refer to salvation?

What does it refer to ?
Please differentiate between "been saved" and "have salvation" .

 

[JLB]

Timothy - I have done a good fight, I have finished the race and kept the faith.

Amen.

Truth.

 

[JLB]

The third word is "ὑπακούω". According to Louw Nida, it can mean, "a) obey, or b) answer door. The writer of Hebrews used it when he wrote, "He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him". The etymology of this word is interesting to me. It's root word is "ἀκούω", which means, "to hear". According to Strongs, the primary definition is, "1 to listen, to harken. 1A of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter) [Strong, J. (1995). In Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon]. I would say the writer of Hebrews chose that word because he wanted to convey the sense that we must answer the door to Him when He knocks... and if we don't answer the door when He knocks, He is not the the author of eternal salvation to us.

Thank you for sharing a deeper understanding of the Greek.

 

[Tenchi]

Brother, I have given scripture after scripture that shows us His word is referred to as "the Truth" in scripture.

Yes, but of what sort? Very obviously, the truth-propositions that issue from The Truth cannot, simply by virtue of having come from God, from Christ, be identical to him. Jesus does not issue forth himself; he does not come from himself, as the truth propositions he gives to us do. Here, then, is one obvious difference between The Truth and the truths that arise from him. But truth propositions are also mere statements; they aren't personal, conscious entities, as is The Truth, who is Christ. So, here, again there is a distinct difference between Jesus, The Truth, and the truth propositions that he delivers to us. Statements of truth also have no causal power; they're just statements. Write one down on a piece of paper and then sit back and wait for the truth statement to act upon something else. You'll be waiting for a very, very long time for that written-down truth proposition to do anything causative. It's inert, devoid of personal agency and the power to cause anything. Christ, in contrast, is the First Cause, the Creator of all things. And so on.

It seems to me that you're purposefully conflating The Truth, a Person, with the truth, which are statements that express truth. To what end, I don't know; but as the Law of the Indiscernability of Identicals dictates, if there is even the slightest difference between two things, they can't be called identical, or the same thing.

We are born again by obeying the Gospel, the truth.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

We are not saved by obeying the truth. Our obeying the Gospel simply puts us in the place where the Savior may save us.

I go to my dentist to get my teeth cleaned and repaired; I "obey" the truth that, if I want a tooth cavity fixed, I must visit my dentist. But, my going to the dentist and sitting in his chair doesn't fix my tooth. I could sit in the dentist's chair for a month, or six months, or a year, but if the dentist doesn't ever work on my tooth to fix it, my going to his dental office and sitting in his chair will not help my tooth one bit.

In the same way, my obeying the truth of the Gospel and seeking the Savior for salvation doesn't save me. There is only one Savior and only he can save me (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). No amount of my knowing, believing and waiting for him to save me is what saves me. Just as my dentist fixes my cavity-fouled tooth, rather than my belief that he can, so, too, Jesus fixes my sin-fouled heart, not my belief that he can.

And so, by way of the Gospel, I come to the place where Jesus can fix me, where he will save me from my sinful self. And when he does, I am redeemed, justified and sanctified in him (1 Corinthians 1:30), the Holy Spirit conferring upon me the life of Christ (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-16; 1 John 4:13).

The Truth is both the person of Jesus Christ, and His words:

His Gospel
His doctrine
His commandments

Simply repeating this doesn't actually deal with what I've pointed out about how the Person who is The Truth and propositions that express truth cannot be - and are not - identical.

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

This doesn't contradict or negate what I've explained about the differences between The Truth and the truth.

Jesus Christ is the truth. His words are the truth.

Yes, but they are not one-and-the-same thing. See above.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Only those who obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved.

We can not earn salvation.

We can only believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

"Obey the gospel" occurs in 3 places in the NT. Romans 10:13-16 gives the most context as to what it means:

13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

​

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:​

​

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,​

Who bring glad tidings of good things!”​

​

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

​

[The New King James Version (Ro 10:13–17). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

This passage provides a great deal of context for what it means to "obey the gospel", which is to hear the good news about Jesus, believe the good news about Jesus, and call on Jesus to save you per the good news.

After we are regenerated then the process of transformation begins.

Regeneration is the transformation.

As God sheds abroad His love in our heart by the Holy Spirit, we can begin to love... by His grace.

With God in our hearts, we love Him with all our hearts, we love our brethren in whom He lives, and we even love those in whom He does not live. Same is true for all His laws, because He brought them with us when He came into our hearts.

Grace is the God given divine ability, granted to us so we can do what we could never do on own own.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

The power to live according to God's will; according to the Spirit, and not according to the sinful desires of the flesh.

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

JLB

You left out the introduction...

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Ro 8:9–11)​

and the explanation...

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Ro 8:14–17)​

You may not have meant to imply that a person in whom Christ lives and who is being led around by the Spirit of God (and is therefore a child of God and a joint heir with Christ) may also be living according to the flesh and will die an eternal death. But it seems as though you were.

The bottom line is that we are alive in Christ if He lives in us. We have not just been given the ability to overcome the sinful desires of the flesh and the condemnation that it brings, but being led around by the Spirit, we put to death the sinful desires of the flesh. In other words, we do not gain or maintain life as the result of putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we put to death the deeds of the flesh because we are alive to God.

 

[JLB]

Yes, but of what sort?

I don’t know what this means.

“Yes”. Means you agree.

“but of what sort”?

What sort of the truth?

Is that what you are asking?

Regeneration is the transformation.

Being born again doesn’t mean we are fully developed, fully matured… fully transformed into the image of the Son.


We all must “grow up” into Him; into full stature sonship.



And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-13



JLB

 

[JLB]

So, here, again there is a distinct difference between Jesus, The Truth, and the truth propositions that he delivers to us.

Truth propositions? What is that?

Brother, If Jesus Christ is the Truth and He is also the Word, why would you believe His words are not the truth?



JLB

 

[JLB]

This passage provides a great deal of context for what it means to "obey the gospel", which is to hear the good news about Jesus, believe the good news about Jesus, and call on Jesus to save you per the good news.

To obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus as LORD.


Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we are saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9.10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Obeying Him as LORD is how we remain in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24






JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

It says saved cos it’s part of the process of salvation

Notice it’s is already done past tense and does not refer to our conversion in Christ
Not of yourselves
And we must abide in Christ and endure to the end to have salvation

Thks

Actually, it is not past tense.

For​

by

grace​

•​

you​

have​

been​

saved​

through​

faith​

γὰρ​

→

τῇ χάριτί​

ἐστε​

→​

→​

→​

σεσωσμένοι​

διὰ​

τῆς πίστεως​

CLX​

DDSF NDSF​

VPAI2P​

​

​

​

VRPP-PNM​

P​

DGSF NGSF​

The New King James Version (Eph 2:8). (1982). Thomas Nelson.​

Notice the word "ἐστε" is a verb (V) in the present tense (P), active voice (A), indicative mood (I), second person (2), and plural number (P). The word is a form of "be", and translated it means, "you (pl) are". In the South, we'd say "Y'all are". This is the main verb in the phrase (and in the sentence).

The supporting verb, "σεσωσμένοι", is actually a Greek participle which has characteristics of a verb and an adjective. Declined, it is a verb (V), perfect tense (R), passive voice (P), participle (P), plural number (P), nominative case (N), and masculine gender (M). Having perfect tense and being a participle, it reflects completed action that has abiding results in the present, with the emphasis on the resulting state of being. As an adjective in the nominative case, it indicates the subject of the sentence. The word means, therefore, "the ones who have been and are currently saved". In other words, their salvation occured in the past and they stand saved.

So, the nuances of this phrase can be best understood as, "For by grace you are (at this very moment) those who have been saved (and stand saved) through faith". The wording indicates salvation happened, was complete, and the results stand. It does not indicate a process that is ongoing. The same is true for the sentence which preceeds the one in question:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:4–7).​

He made those of us who have been saved and stand saved (perfect passive participle) alive together with Christ (simple action in past time), raised us up together with Christ (simple action in past time), and made us sit together with Christ (simple action in past time) so that in the future He might make show (simple action in past time) to all creation just how good and kind of a God He is in His sacrifice of His Son for our sins. In other words, we have been saved, we stand saved, and in the future we will be an object lesson for all creation to observe just how good a God He is.

A short catechism!

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in no no Christ & grace))

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

To obey the Gospel is to confess Jesus as LORD.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we are saved.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9.10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Obeying Him as LORD is how we remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

Maybe you could explain how you think it works. Let's take, for example, the testimony of a preacher, one of your fellow Texans. In a sermon a couple years ago he said he had gone as many as 3 days in a row without sinning.

I don't judge the man when I say he must have a different definition of sin than I do. But I know the flesh and I know its desires are evil. I also know that all unrighteousness is sin. So, I conclude that sin is present in me, even when I don't carry out the evil desires of the flesh.

But that is not how you react to the preacher's comment, right? If a person commits one sin every three days of his life, he is a habitual sinner right? He doesn't remain in Him because his failure to obey Him means his commitment to follow Jesus as Lord was not worth the paper it was written on. Is that what you're saying?

In your explanation, if you commend the pastor, please make sure you state how the Lordship status of Christ is maintained when he sins once every 3 days of his life. And if you do not commend the pastor, please make sure you explain how anyone could live up to your standard.

 

[donadams]

Only those who obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be saved.

We can not earn salvation.

We can only believe and therefore obey the Gospel.


After we are regenerated then the process of transformation begins.

As God sheds abroad His love in our heart by the Holy Spirit, we can begin to love... by His grace.


Grace is the God given divine ability, granted to us so we can do what we could never do on own own.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

The power to live according to God's will; according to the Spirit, and not according to the sinful desires of the flesh.

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14




JLB

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema
The opposite of anathema is salvation
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrowis the way, which leadeth unto life…

 

[donadams]

No "sacraments" mentioned in these verses.

And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:16-17


Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


JLB

Sacraments are the fruit of Christ’s sacrifice, the means of grace!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, but of what sort? Very obviously, the truth-propositions that issue from The Truth cannot, simply by virtue of having come from God, from Christ, be identical to him.

JLB made it clear from the very first post..."First and foremost we need to understand that the truth is both something as well as Someone."

Jesus does not issue forth himself; he does not come from himself, as the truth propositions he gives to us do. Here, then, is one obvious difference between The Truth and the truths that arise from him. But truth propositions are also mere statements; they aren't personal, conscious entities, as is The Truth, who is Christ. So, here, again there is a distinct difference between Jesus, The Truth, and the truth propositions that he delivers to us. Statements of truth also have no causal power; they're just statements. Write one down on a piece of paper and then sit back and wait for the truth statement to act upon something else. You'll be waiting for a very, very long time for that written-down truth proposition to do anything causative. It's inert, devoid of personal agency and the power to cause anything. Christ, in contrast, is the First Cause, the Creator of all things. And so on.

It seems to me that you're purposefully conflating The Truth, a Person, with the truth, which are statements that express truth. To what end, I don't know; but as the Law of the Indiscernability of Identicals dictates, if there is even the slightest difference between two things, they can't be called identical, or the same thing.



We are not saved by obeying the truth. Our obeying the Gospel simply puts us in the place where the Savior may save us.

I go to my dentist to get my teeth cleaned and repaired; I "obey" the truth that, if I want a tooth cavity fixed, I must visit my dentist. But, my going to the dentist and sitting in his chair doesn't fix my tooth. I could sit in the dentist's chair for a month, or six months, or a year, but if the dentist doesn't ever work on my tooth to fix it, my going to his dental office and sitting in his chair will not help my tooth one bit.

In the same way, my obeying the truth of the Gospel and seeking the Savior for salvation doesn't save me. There is only one Savior and only he can save me (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). No amount of my knowing, believing and waiting for him to save me is what saves me. Just as my dentist fixes my cavity-fouled tooth, rather than my belief that he can, so, too, Jesus fixes my sin-fouled heart, not my belief that he can.

And so, by way of the Gospel, I come to the place where Jesus can fix me, where he will save me from my sinful self. And when he does, I am redeemed, justified and sanctified in him (1 Corinthians 1:30), the Holy Spirit conferring upon me the life of Christ (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-16; 1 John 4:13).



Simply repeating this doesn't actually deal with what I've pointed out about how the Person who is The Truth and propositions that express truth cannot be - and are not - identical.



This doesn't contradict or negate what I've explained about the differences between The Truth and the truth.



Yes, but they are not one-and-the-same thing. See above.