Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[Hopeful 2]

Your flesh contains sin. We are instructed not to live our lives according to our flesh, but according to the Spirit who dwells in our spirit.

It isn't MY flesh anymore.
Like Paul in Gal 2:20..." I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Jesus won't live in a polluted temple.

If we should sin, then we confess our sin, and are cleansed, in which we continue walking in the light.

"""IF"""we sin, not When we sin.
If we are cleansed we can say we are clean !
I can't figure out why you can't see that.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Those walking in the light-God can say they have no sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:7 - 2:2

So which is true ?
Verse 7 which says all our sins can be washed away, or verse 8 which you say they can't be washed away?
They are both true, but verse 7is about those in Christ and verse 8 is about those not in Christ.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
God so loved the world.
God loves the church.
He has made a away for all of us to be forgiven.

Thanks be to God.
The forgiven are not still dragging all their past sin around with them.
They have been washed away by the blood of Christ !
Stay in the light-God, and you will be able to keep saying you have no sin !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here is the truth -

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

Here are Jesus' words on "truth"..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:32-34)
People committing sin are not free.

 

[JLB]

Here are Jesus' words on "truth"..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (John 8:32-34)
People committing sin are not free.

Amen.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. John 8:31-34


These believing Jews, like you, argued with Jesus because they thought they had no sin, and were not in bondage.

Jesus told them they way to become free from the bondage of the deception of sin was to continue in His doctrine.

Your claim rejects the counsel of Jesus Christ to continue in His doctrine, in favor of your man made theology that says you became "sinless" at water baptism.



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

 

[Tenchi]

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"If nobody is walking in the light-God, then everybody is walking in the darkness-sin.
And none shall be saved on the day of judgement."

As I've explained, this is a false dichotomy. There are more options than just the two you present here. And so, your remark is entirely faulty, resting on a false dichotomy as it does.

"What is mistaken about the idea that if folks are not in one place they must be in the other ?
There aren't any other alternate places."

As I've already explained to you in earlier posts, your either/or framing of things is false. As Scripture plainly indicates, born-again Christians sin - and sometimes very grossly and willfully. For you to say otherwise is, as the apostle John has declared, to be deceived and to have no truth within you.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[donadams]

There are a bunch of misconceptions that support these 11 words. The main two are...

First, the universal church is not an institution. It is a spiritual house incorporating under one Head (who is Christ) every person who is made holy (i.e., the holy ones, the saints) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The universal church is holy because the Holy One presides over it and only the holies are in it.

Second, the two sacraments that Jesus left us (baptism and the Lord's supper) do not confer salvation. They are only a shaddow of the real things that do confer salvation.

Baptism: Being sprinkled with water or being dunked in water, no matter how special that water is, doesn't do anything. But it pictures the real thing that happens when we first put our trust in Christ... that is, we died to sin together with Christ, were were burried together with Christ (dunked), and we were raise from the dead together with Christ, with the real effect that we now possess the eternal life that exists only in Him. Sprinkling doesn't even get the imagery right.​

​

Lord's Supper: Eating some crackers and drinking some wine, no matter how special they are, doesn't do anything. Jesus Himself pointed out that what a person eats goes in the mouth and comes out the other end. But what it pictures is the real thing that happened... Jesus gave His body and His blood for our sins. When we internalize His sacrifice of Himself for our sins, resting all our weight on His broad shoulders, He saves us from the penalties of our sins and comes to live in our hearts. Whenever we participate in the Lord's Supper in church (or elsewhere), it serves as a reminder of His death for our sins and our complete dependence on Him for our salvation.​

There is much to say about these verses you have referenced. But I don't have the patience to look them up individually, try to infer the meaning you are giving to them, then form a response. I will just say generally that baptism with the Holy Spirit (as opposed to baptism with water), which is the kind of baptism that only Jesus performs, is the real thing that confers eternal life. Thinking that being baptized with water confers eternal life misses the mark substantially.

If it’s not Christ his church And his sacraments then it is “faith alone”

Please answer these questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Faith alone?

1 Timothy 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
(Sound like faith alone?)
(Why a great amount of grace, don’t we just each need a tiny bit?)

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism
Not called to faith alone Phil 1:29

Three things faith, hope and charity!
Not faith alone! Greatest not faith, if salvation depended on faith alone faith would be the greatest! 1 cor 13:13

Phil 1:29 not only called to believe

Scripture does not support “faith alone”!

Thks

 

[donadams]

There are a bunch of misconceptions that support these 11 words. The main two are...

First, the universal church is not an institution. It is a spiritual house incorporating under one Head (who is Christ) every person who is made holy (i.e., the holy ones, the saints) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The universal church is holy because the Holy One presides over it and only the holies are in it.

Second, the two sacraments that Jesus left us (baptism and the Lord's supper) do not confer salvation. They are only a shaddow of the real things that do confer salvation.

Baptism: Being sprinkled with water or being dunked in water, no matter how special that water is, doesn't do anything. But it pictures the real thing that happens when we first put our trust in Christ... that is, we died to sin together with Christ, were were burried together with Christ (dunked), and we were raise from the dead together with Christ, with the real effect that we now possess the eternal life that exists only in Him. Sprinkling doesn't even get the imagery right.​

​

Lord's Supper: Eating some crackers and drinking some wine, no matter how special they are, doesn't do anything. Jesus Himself pointed out that what a person eats goes in the mouth and comes out the other end. But what it pictures is the real thing that happened... Jesus gave His body and His blood for our sins. When we internalize His sacrifice of Himself for our sins, resting all our weight on His broad shoulders, He saves us from the penalties of our sins and comes to live in our hearts. Whenever we participate in the Lord's Supper in church (or elsewhere), it serves as a reminder of His death for our sins and our complete dependence on Him for our salvation.​

There is much to say about these verses you have referenced. But I don't have the patience to look them up individually, try to infer the meaning you are giving to them, then form a response. I will just say generally that baptism with the Holy Spirit (as opposed to baptism with water), which is the kind of baptism that only Jesus performs, is the real thing that confers eternal life. Thinking that being baptized with water confers eternal life misses the mark substantially.

Are we born again by faith alone?

 

[donadams]

There are a bunch of misconceptions that support these 11 words. The main two are...

First, the universal church is not an institution. It is a spiritual house incorporating under one Head (who is Christ) every person who is made holy (i.e., the holy ones, the saints) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The universal church is holy because the Holy One presides over it and only the holies are in it.

Second, the two sacraments that Jesus left us (baptism and the Lord's supper) do not confer salvation. They are only a shaddow of the real things that do confer salvation.

Baptism: Being sprinkled with water or being dunked in water, no matter how special that water is, doesn't do anything. But it pictures the real thing that happens when we first put our trust in Christ... that is, we died to sin together with Christ, were were burried together with Christ (dunked), and we were raise from the dead together with Christ, with the real effect that we now possess the eternal life that exists only in Him. Sprinkling doesn't even get the imagery right.​

​

Lord's Supper: Eating some crackers and drinking some wine, no matter how special they are, doesn't do anything. Jesus Himself pointed out that what a person eats goes in the mouth and comes out the other end. But what it pictures is the real thing that happened... Jesus gave His body and His blood for our sins. When we internalize His sacrifice of Himself for our sins, resting all our weight on His broad shoulders, He saves us from the penalties of our sins and comes to live in our hearts. Whenever we participate in the Lord's Supper in church (or elsewhere), it serves as a reminder of His death for our sins and our complete dependence on Him for our salvation.​

There is much to say about these verses you have referenced. But I don't have the patience to look them up individually, try to infer the meaning you are giving to them, then form a response. I will just say generally that baptism with the Holy Spirit (as opposed to baptism with water), which is the kind of baptism that only Jesus performs, is the real thing that confers eternal life. Thinking that being baptized with water confers eternal life misses the mark substantially.

Christ requires baptism
Mk 16:16
Matt 28:19
Jn 3:5

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)
John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Act 2:38-41
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Justified by baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(((Life))) Jn 1:16-17 Jn 3:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 life of God by His grace!

Thks

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You're accusing me of believing in sinless perfection.

I didn't accuse you, I was asking a question. Here is what I wrote:

But now that I know there are really people like Hopeful 2 who deny that they commit any sins, I do concede that your comments could be in line with the false doctrine of sinless perfection. Maybe you could clarify.​

​

I'm sorry you've understood this.
You're also misunderstanding everything else I write.

Your copied and pasted commentary is also incorrect as to what is being stated in the NT and is using its own understanding of verses. I refuse to play commentary ping pong and leave it up to you to read through all commentaries AND CHOOSE the one you like best that fits your theological paradigm.

Actually, I have not read or referenced a commentary in many years, maybe decades. But I do use several theological dictionaries and lexicons to better understand the original languages of the NT. In my Logos Bible software I have the difinitive Greek dictionary titled "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament". It can get very wordy because it goes into a great deal of detail. So sometimes I rely on the Louw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon that I referenced in the post you are objecting to. In case you don't know, a Lexicon is not a commentary. Wikipedia says that a lexicon is "essentially a catalogue of a language's words (its wordstock)". So, what I gave you was not someone's commentary, but an explanation of what the Greek words in John 3:36 mean. I quoted the experts ver batim to make it easy to see that my opinions were in line.

You might want to study the word BELIEVE....
It implies OBEYING.

You have no idea to what extent I have studied the word. To give you a flavor for it, I wrote this a decade ago...

Through faith, we accept and treasure His communications. Through faith, we speak back to Him knowing that He hears us. Through faith, we know His will. Through faith, we discern whether we are in rebellion against Him. Through faith, we know what it feels like to experience His correction. Through faith, we know the peaceable fruit of righteousness that comes from being trained by Him. Through faith, we know these things and experience these things in spite of the fact that we can’t see Him with our eyes, hear Him with our ears, or touch Him with our hands (Heb. 11:27).​

​

But what exactly is faith? To find out, let’s consider the Greek word in the New Testament that we translate faith. That word is πιστις. Don’t worry if you can’t read it. Just look at the first four letters, πιστ-. This is the stem, and it carries the meaning of the word. In this case, the stem means “faith”. The last two letters, -ις, form the ending. Greek endings differentiate parts of speech. In this case, the ending tells us that Πιστις is a noun. The same stem with the ending, -ευω, is a verb. With -ος as its ending, it is an adjective. In Greek, to form the negative of a word they may add an alpha-prefix (α-). This is like our word atypical, which means “not typical.”​

​

​	​ Basic Form​	​ Negative Form​
​ Noun​	​ πιστ-ις: “confidence,” “trust,” “faith”​	​ α-πιστ-ια: “unfaithfulness,” “distrust,” “doubt”​
​ Verb​	​ πιστ-ευω: “to trust,” “to rely on,” “to believe”​	​ α-πιστ-εω: “to refuse to believe,” “to be distrustful,” “to be unbelieving”​
​ Adjective​	​ πιστ-ος: “trusting,” “faithful,” “trustworthy”​	​ α-πιστ-ος: “distrustful,” “unfaithful,” “unreliable”​

Look at the noun, verb, and adjectival forms of the Greek word for faith in the table above.https://christianforums.net/#_edn1 Notice that the stem (πιστ-) is the same in each instance, and that the negative forms all have the alpha-prefix (α-).​

I am showing this table, in spite of the fact that most readers probably do not know the Greek language, in order to help clarify the meaning of faith. Faith can be mysterious and hard to understand, or twisted, and made even harder to understand. But this table makes it clear that if a person has faith, it simply means that he has confidence or trust in someone or something. To be without faith means that he lacks confidence or that he refuses to believe. And a faithful person is someone who trusts someone or something, or one who is trustworthy. He is the opposite of one who is distrustful or unreliable.​

---

https://christianforums.net/#_ednref1 Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964–c1976. Vols. 5–9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin. (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (6:174). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.​

However, you are free to understand the NT however it serves your beliefs best.....

Thanks for the translations (I couldn't keep them becusause of length). Please note that every translation you gave translates "πιστεύω" the same way, and in the manner that I showed above (i.e., “to trust,” “to rely on,” “to believe”). But they are not consistant in their translation of "οὐκ ἀπειθέω". Translations vary... "does not obey", "rejects", "does not believe", and "refues to believe". All of the translations, however, are consistent with what I said in my post (repeated here for convenience):

The second instance of "believe" is "ἀπειθέω". In a general sense, it can mean "unwillingness or refusal to comply with the demands of some authority—‘to disobey, disobedience’" [Louw-Nida]. But, simply applying the general sense of the word does not do justice in this context because in the NT the word specifically means, "to refuse to believe the Christian message—‘to refuse to be a believer, to reject the Christian message, to refuse to believe’" [Louw Nida].​

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Are we born again by faith alone?

Not exactly. We are born again when the Spirit of God gives birth to us. The question is, what action(s) on our parts, if any, influence God's decision to give birth to us? I find the answer in 1 Corinthians 1:21... "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." This verse gives us insight into God's decsion-making. He decided on His own, with no counsel from man, that He would save those people who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. I know this verse does not mention being "born again", but from my point of view, being "born again" is part and parcel with salvation. If you need a reference to God choosing to give birth to people who believe...

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Jn 1:12–13).​

 

[donadams]

If nobody is walking in the light-God, then everybody is walking in the darkness-sin.
And none shall be saved on the day of judgement.

Unless we repent and confess

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Christ requires baptism
Mk 16:16
Matt 28:19
Jn 3:5

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)
John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Act 2:38-41
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Justified by baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(((Life))) Jn 1:16-17 Jn 3:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 life of God by His grace!

Thks

I first encountered "Salvation by water baptism" almost 40 years ago when a Church of Christ disciple objected to the idea that baptism by water is only symbolic of the real thing that happened when Jesus raised us from the dead. I thought I had heard every argument about water baptism saving us until yesterday when I read your post and remarked...

This is a new twist that I have never considered before. Is it possible that you are saying salvation comes, not by trusting in Christ that all your sins are forgiven, but by trusting in the institution He created plus participation in its sacraments? If so, this opens up a whole new world to me.​

​

Can you answer my question?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Amen.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. John 8:31-34

Thanks for repeating my post.

These believing Jews, like you, argued with Jesus because they thought they had no sin, and were not in bondage.

I wish I knew what you based that on.
How do you know they thought they had no sin ?
I would think that if they were indeed believers that they would be well aware of their sins.
In fact, in verse 37, Jesus accuses them of wanting to kill Him.

Jesus told them they way to become free from the bondage of the deception of sin was to continue in His doctrine.

I agree, that is what was written in verse 31.

Your claim rejects the counsel of Jesus Christ to continue in His doctrine, in favor of your man made theology that says you became "sinless" at water baptism.

That is indeed what Peter said on the day of Pentecost...Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."
Ananias also said it to Paul in Damascus...Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Were they not continuing in the Lord's doctrine ?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If your "we" are those walking in darkness-sin, sinners can't honestly say they have no sin.
Had they been walking in the light-God, and as there is no sin in God, they could have honestly said they had no sin.
I walk in the light-God, in Whom is no sin.
If you want to walk in God, you must confess your past sins and be washed of your old sins by the blood of Christ.
Then you too will be cleansed of ALL sin !
And can say it out loud !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"If nobody is walking in the light-God, then everybody is walking in the darkness-sin.
And none shall be saved on the day of judgement."

As I've explained, this is a false dichotomy. There are more options than just the two you present here. And so, your remark is entirely faulty, resting on a false dichotomy as it does.

Illustrate any other option besides light or darkness...God or sin.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:5,7..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those who are or are, or about to, walk in the light-God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness-sin.

Sinners can't say they have no sin.
There are no sinners in God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Unless we repent and confess

That is right: but don't forget about the washing away of past sins by the blood of Christ. (1 John 1:7)

 

[Hopeful 2]

I first encountered "Salvation by water baptism" almost 40 years ago when a Church of Christ disciple objected to the idea that baptism by water is only symbolic of the real thing that happened when Jesus raised us from the dead. I thought I had heard every argument about water baptism saving us until yesterday when I read your post and remarked...

This is a new twist that I have never considered before. Is it possible that you are saying salvation comes, not by trusting in Christ that all your sins are forgiven, but by trusting in the institution He created plus participation in its sacraments? If so, this opens up a whole new world to me.​

​

Can you answer my question?

When were you raised from the dead ?
It is written..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Rom 6:4-5)
We were raised with Christ, from death with Him, at our resurrection with Him, at our water baptism into Him and into His death and burial !
Baptism though, is just a bath, if your trust in Christ is false.

The only institution Christ founded was His church.

 

[donadams]

Not exactly. We are born again when the Spirit of God gives birth to us. The question is, what action(s) on our parts, if any, influence God's decision to give birth to us? I find the answer in 1 Corinthians 1:21... "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." This verse gives us insight into God's decsion-making. He decided on His own, with no counsel from man, that He would save those people who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. I know this verse does not mention being "born again", but from my point of view, being "born again" is part and parcel with salvation. If you need a reference to God choosing to give birth to people who believe...

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Jn 1:12–13).​

Jn 3:5 what is the water for?

 

[donadams]

Not exactly. We are born again when the Spirit of God gives birth to us. The question is, what action(s) on our parts, if any, influence God's decision to give birth to us? I find the answer in 1 Corinthians 1:21... "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." This verse gives us insight into God's decsion-making. He decided on His own, with no counsel from man, that He would save those people who believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. I know this verse does not mention being "born again", but from my point of view, being "born again" is part and parcel with salvation. If you need a reference to God choosing to give birth to people who believe...

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Jn 1:12–13).​

Please explain

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

 

[Tenchi]

Illustrate any other option besides light or darkness...God or sin.

You're not actually comprehending what I've written to you. I've already done exactly as you've asked here in past posts. Please read them. Carefully.

1 John 1:5,7..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Verses 5, 7, and 9 address those who are or are, or about to, walk in the light-God.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness-sin.

Sinners can't say they have no sin.
There are no sinners in God.

1 John 1:5-10
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

What does the term "walk" imply? A mere step into darkness? No. To "walk" is to be in an ongoing course of living that is "in darkness." This is what John clarified in chapter 3 when he wrote of one who "practices sinning" (1 John 3:4-9). The idea conveyed in "practices" is of a persistent, unchanging course of living, a regular, unaltering habit of doing what is sinful, not a single instance of sin, or even a season of stumbling into sin while one learns to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit. What is much more revealing of the true nature of one's relationship to God is whether or not the "Spirit has borne witness" with one's spirit that one is a child of God (Romans 8:16). If a person has never had any evident work of the Spirit within their mind and heart, they have far greater cause for doubt about their salvation than they do from the mere presence of sin in their life. Good deeds prove nothing, really, about one's heart toward God - as the professionally-obedient Pharisees demonstrated. One can be very careful to obey God's law and yet have a heart that has no love for Him whatsoever. Such a "Christian" is actually in constant disobedience to God, all their obedience spiritually useless, as far as God is concerned. See: Matthew 22:36-38, 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Why does John write "cleanses" (present progressive tense) in this verse rather than "has cleansed" (past tense)? Why would Christ's blood need to continue to cleanse those who are saved and thus sinlessly-perfect, as you believe Hopeful 2? Only if those who were walking in the light were sinning in the present would they require cleansing in the present. This rather puts a serious crimp in your sinless-perfection contortion of John's words, though, it seems to me...

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here, John makes explicit the implication of verse 7 that those "walking in the light" continue to require cleansing from sin so that no one reading his letter would miss it, or miscontrue his words in the way you've done, Hopeful 2.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If there was still any doubt in his readers that John meant that those "walking in the light" were still sinning, his explanation in this verse that such cleansing happened only as conscious, explicit confession of the sin was made, totally prevents any sinless-perfection construction on his words. No sinlessly-perfect person would ever have to make such a confession. But, as John has taken pains to explain, this is NOT what he ever intended to suggest in verse 6.

10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

All along throughout the last five verses, John has included himself in his remarks, using the pronouns "us" and "we" over and over so that his words are always self-referential, describing himself both as one "walking in the light" but also in need of present cleansing of sin (vs.7), who could not say he had no sin in the present (vs. 8), and who would make himself a self-deceived liar if he did (vs. 10).

This all synthesizes perfectly with rest of the New Testament throughout which sinning saints are described. See: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 14, James 4, Revelation 2-3.

By the way, I'm writing all I am, not to convince you to a different perspective, but to demonstrate that there is an entirely-sound biblical understanding of Scripture that does a far better job of handling God's word than your sinless-perfection perspective does. This I am demonstrating, not just to you, of course, Hopeful 2, but to those readers of this thread who follow our exchange.

 

[JLB]

It isn't MY flesh anymore.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Paul admonishing these baptized Christians to not let the sin in their mortal reign over them.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You're not actually comprehending what I've written to you. I've already done exactly as you've asked here in past posts. Please read them. Carefully.

You are either "in" Christ or you are not.
There are no other options.
One either walks in the light-God, or they walk in darkness-sin.
We are talking about sane folks of age who use their consciences to determine good from bad.
What other options are there ?

1 John 1:5-10
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

What does the term "walk" imply?

Live, reside, act, exist.
To walk in the light is to walk in God.
To walk in darkness is to commit a sin.

A mere step into darkness? No. To "walk" is to be in an ongoing course of living that is "in darkness."

There are no 'steps into darkness'.
One sin manifests where the heart is based.
One sin illustrates from whom we are born...Adam or God.

This is what John clarified in chapter 3 when he wrote of one who "practices sinning" (1 John 3:4-9). The idea conveyed in "practices" is of a persistent, unchanging course of living, a regular, unaltering habit of doing what is sinful, not a single instance of sin, or even a season of stumbling into sin while one learns to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The word 'practice' was added by the devilish to accommodate sin in supposed believers.
It opens the door for satanic actions-sin.
Besides, there are no 'one-time sinners.

What is much more revealing of the true nature of one's relationship to God is whether or not the "Spirit has borne witness" with one's spirit that one is a child of God (Romans 8:16).

Whose spirit is revealed by sinning ?
The devil's.

If a person has never had any evident work of the Spirit within their mind and heart, they have far greater cause for doubt about their salvation than they do from the mere presence of sin in their life.

Sin cancels out any work of the Spirit, as sin is of the devil.

Good deeds prove nothing, really, about one's heart toward God - as the professionally-obedient Pharisees demonstrated. One can be very careful to obey God's law and yet have a heart that has no love for Him whatsoever.

True !
So does sin prove ?
It proves one's heat is not 'towards' God.

Such a "Christian" is actually in constant disobedience to God, all their obedience spiritually useless, as far as God is concerned. See: Matthew 22:36-38, 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

If they are disobedient to God, they are not Christians.
They are still children of Adam, and servants of sin.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Why does John write "cleanses" (present progressive tense) in this verse rather than "has cleansed" (past tense)?

John is simply stating a fact.
The blood of Christ Jesus cleanses the repentant/baptized's past sin.

Why would Christ's blood need to continue to cleanse those who are saved and thus sinlessly-perfect, as you believe Hopeful 2?

Christ's blood doesn't need to continually cleanse the clean.
But it is available to all those who have yet to confess and be washed.

Only if those who were walking in the light were sinning in the present would they require cleansing in the present. This rather puts a serious crimp in your sinless-perfection contortion of John's words, though, it seems to me...

Nobody walking in God commits sin.
They would have to be in darkness to commit sin.
Darkness IS sin. (Pro 4:19)

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So true...for those walking in sin.
We who walk in God, have an Advocate for them.

Here, John makes explicit the implication of verse 7 that those "walking in the light" continue to require cleansing from sin so that no one reading his letter would miss it, or miscontrue his words in the way you've done, Hopeful 2.

No, that implication is based on a false circumstance.
Verses 7, and verses 5 and 9, address those walking, or about to start walking, in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10, address those walking in darkness-sin.
John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B, style of writing...a style also used by Paul, in Romans 8

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If all our unrighteousness can be cleansed, why can't the cleansed say they have no sin ?
They can.

If there was still any doubt in his readers that John meant that those "walking in the light" were still sinning, his explanation in this verse that such cleansing happened only as conscious, explicit confession of the sin was made, totally prevents any sinless-perfection construction on his words. No sinlessly-perfect person would ever have to make such a confession. But, as John has taken pains to explain, this is NOT what he ever intended to suggest in verse 6.

Your short sightedness led you down the wrong path.
You have based this entire post on a word added by evil, accommodators of sin.
You say nobody can say they have no sin, and then show how their sin can be washed away...thanks.
Having used the Advocate, and been cleansed by the blood of Christ myself, I can now rejoice in my walk in God...wherein is no sin !

10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Perfectly apt for those who have yet to be cleansed.

All along throughout the last five verses, John has included himself in his remarks, using the pronouns "us" and "we" over and over so that his words are always self-referential, describing himself both as one "walking in the light" but also in need of present cleansing of sin (vs.7), who could not say he had no sin in the present (vs. 8), and who would make himself a self-deceived liar if he did (vs. 10).

He also used the word "IF".
Using alternating verses, he has illustrated both the walks in the light-God, and the walks in darkness sin.

This all synthesizes perfectly with rest of the New Testament throughout which sinning saints are described. See: 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 14, James 4, Revelation 2-3.

I guess it is because you believe those in God commit sin, that you continue to refer to sinners as Christians.
I don't make that mistake.

By the way, I'm writing all I am, not to convince you to a different perspective, but to demonstrate that there is an entirely-sound biblical understanding of Scripture that does a far better job of handling God's word than your sinless-perfection perspective does. This I am demonstrating, not just to you, of course, Hopeful 2, but to those readers of this thread who follow our exchange.

Your accommodations for sinning are unsound.
And not of God who desires all me to be as holy as He is holy. (Lev 11:44, 1 Peter 1:16)

We have been born with the ability to choose whether or not to follow God.
Choose wisely.