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Do you agree, or disagree?

Does a genuine believer who stops believing and dies in that unbelief remain saved?

  • Total voters
    20
Cygnus said:
Salvation is a gift from God.....there are no conditions required to receive a gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Click to expand...
Back to the beginning...
When you can't go forward,
Go backward...
 
wondering said:
They had the KNOWLEDGE of what exactly?
What does KNOWLEDGE mean anyway?

Back in Genesis God told Adam not to eat of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
So knowledge must mean knowing something and the effect it causes. Genesis 2:17

Adam knew only good. Then he ate of the fruit, now he KNEW evil too. He gained the KNOWLEDGE of good AND evil. And evil became real.

If one has the knowledge of the gospel and ESCAPED THE DEFILEMENT OF THE WORLD by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then are AGAIN entangled in them -
I'd say the person was had the knowledge of the gospel, escaped the defilement of the world, and then became lost again when they went back into the world. This might be called backsliding today.

2 Peter 2:21
If would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness. Who is righteous? The unsaved?

Interesting that Peter wrote this letter to warn of the danger of false teachers. And what was the false teaching?:
LAWLESSNESS that came from false teachings. Antinomianism - the HERESY that states that a Christian does not have to be moral. Today we call this hyper grace.

By the very writings in Peter we see that LAWFULNESS is necessary to be a Christian and one must also be moral.

Why do some have such a problem with this?
They'll say that they do not mean that one can sin - so then why debate this matter so much?
To my understanding, one debates this and believes in eternal salvation so as not to feel guilt because of a deep rooted desire to NOT adhere to the commandments which God set forth.

I can see no other reason.

Wondering
Click to expand...

Yes, christians must be "moral"...it is a result of their salvation. Not a means of receiving it.
If there is no change in a person that calls themself a christian....then one should question if they are really a christian. They may have the knowledge of the gospel....but they don't have the gospel.
 
Cygnus said:
Yes, christians must be "moral"...it is a result of their salvation. Not a means of receiving it.
If there is no change in a person that calls themself a christian....then one should question if they are really a christian. They may have the knowledge of the gospel....but they don't have the gospel.
Click to expand...
circle back round and round
 
Are there Christians in this man's camp?


0.jpg
 
Cygnus said:
Yes, christians must be "moral"...it is a result of their salvation. Not a means of receiving it.
If there is no change in a person that calls themself a christian....then one should question if they are really a christian. They may have the knowledge of the gospel....but they don't have the gospel.
Click to expand...
Some posters here like to have the knowledge of who is saved and who isn't saved.
I find this to be incredible.
Moral is a RESULT and not a MEANS.

Fine.

So exactly what is it that we're arguing here?

I see myself, JLB, Jethro and others arguing for morals, keeping the commandments, and a change of our life. Then I see some posters fighting this all the way, and then those posters say there must be a change in a person if they are saved.

So then WHY are you debating us if we're saying the same thing??

A very confusing situation indeed.

W
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Grace does it all.
Grace means God does it all.
Click to expand...

Grace
She takes the blame
She covers the shame
Removes the stain
It could be her name

Grace
It's a name for a girl
It's also a thought that
Changed the world
...
Because grace makes beauty
Out of ugly things

Grace finds beauty
In everything

Grace finds goodness in everything

U2
Grace
 
wondering said:
Some posters here like to have the knowledge of who is saved and who isn't saved.
I find this to be incredible.
Moral is a RESULT and not a MEANS.

Fine.

So exactly what is it that we're arguing here?

I see myself, JLB, Jethro and others arguing for morals, keeping the commandments, and a change of our life. Then I see some posters fighting this all the way, and then those posters say there must be a change in a person if they are saved.

So then WHY are you debating us if we're saying the same thing??

A very confusing situation indeed.

W
Click to expand...
It is confusing and to be honest it will be until Christ returns then the truth will be revealed and our works tested.
I do agree that it is incredible that some seem to have the knowledge of those who are saved an those that are not.

You are right that moral is a result and not a means. To me the change happens because they are saved and not to be saved. I think the confusion arises because we don't see change straight away. We still see people walking in the flesh and question yet we don't allow room for sanctification, progressive change as we grow more in the knowledge of Christ.
 
wondering said:
Grace
She takes the blame
She covers the shame
Removes the stain
It could be her name

Grace
It's a name for a girl
It's also a thought that
Changed the world
...
Because grace makes beauty
Out of ugly things

Grace finds beauty
In everything

Grace finds goodness in everything

U2
Grace
Click to expand...
So beautifully said.
 
"wondering, said this

Some posters here like to have the knowledge of who is saved and who isn't saved.
I find this to be incredible.
Moral is a RESULT and not a MEANS.

Fine.

So exactly what is it that we're arguing here?

I see myself, JLB, Jethro and others arguing for morals, keeping the commandments, and a change of our life. Then I see some posters fighting this all the way, and then those posters say there must be a change in a person if they are saved.

So then WHY are you debating us if we're saying the same thing??

A very confusing situation indeed.


Very good post .
 
reba said:
this teaches a licence to sin.. So Jim Bakker not a bad guy nor is Swaggart there are no false teachers .. .we are all saved
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-
Romans 4:8 is a fact of salvation and it teaches that God holds Jesus accountable for our sins, and not us after we are born again.
Listen, God created salvation so that its all about what Jesus did and not about what we do.
Its not the "atoning" its the atonement......Jesus didnt say, work to finish what i started, He said, its is FINISHED.

Now, we are talking about God not charging a person with their sins.....In other words, No Judgement for them AFTER YOU DIE, because Jesus has died for them all already.
However, Paul when talking about this LIBERTY, this sinless condition we are now become....Paul says, "dont use this liberty, for sinning".
"dont use this knowledge of what Christ did for you, as a license to enjoy your FLESHLY LUSTS"...
And then the bible tells you that if a person gets into habitual sinning, then they get Hebrews 12:6.
They get corrected down here by God, but they dont get cast away from the family.
So, they can lose everything on the earth ......family, health, money, ministry, ...they will pay on the earth for their sinning, as the law of "sowing and reaping" is still in effect, even tho the eternal consequence for sinning have been nullified by the Blood of Christ.
Paul even says, that if you continue in a sinful lifestyle, after you are saved, then you will die.
So, there is consequence for sinning, but not after you die., as Jesus has already been judged for your sins.
 
Kidron said:
-
Romans 4:8 is a fact of salvation and it teaches that God holds Jesus accountable for our sins, and not us after we are born again.
Listen, God created salvation so that its all about what Jesus did and not about what we do.
Its not the "atoning" its the atonement......Jesus didnt say, work to finish what i started, He said, its is FINISHED.

Now, we are talking about God not charging a person with their sins.....In other words, No Judgement for them AFTER YOU DIE, because Jesus has died for them all already.
However, Paul when talking about this LIBERTY, this sinless condition we are now become....Paul says, "dont use this liberty, for sinning".
"dont use this knowledge of what Christ did for you, as a license to enjoy your FLESHLY LUSTS"...
And then the bible tells you that if a person gets into habitual sinning, then they get Hebrews 12:6.
They get corrected down here by God, but they dont get cast away from the family.
So, they can lose everything on the earth ......family, health, money, ministry, ...they will pay on the earth for their sinning, as the law of "sowing and reaping" is still in effect, even tho the eternal consequence for sinning have been nullified by the Blood of Christ.
Paul even says, that if you continue in a sinful lifestyle, after you are saved, then you will die.
So, there is consequence for sinning, but not after you die., as Jesus has already been judged for your sins.
Click to expand...
IT IS FINISHED.

The Sacrifical Plan is finished.
That's all.
 
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