Do you agree, or disagree?

[Cygnus]

I suspect there's a difference between backsliding into drugs and alcohol versus backsliding into unbelief. I can struggle with my fleshly sins and still be a believer. The optimum word I used here is "struggle." It's one thing to struggle with sin and a totally different one to embrace sin.

Thanks for that.
I was simply pointing out how people often assign a topic to a verse that just isn't there.

 

[reba]

I have already explained it. They were never saved.

The classic line.. Walking the fence on this subject fora number of years now,,,, the repetition of the above line has been determining factor in getting off the fence..

 

[JLB]

And that proves what? Sounds like you got that from some feel good TV preacher.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:21

It proves that... you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The truth itself won't make you free, but knowing the truth shall make you free.

It is the knowledge of the truth, that leads us to being free of the corrupting pollutions of this world... for all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 1 John 2:16



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:21

It proves that... you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The truth itself won't make you free, but knowing the truth shall make you free.

It is the knowledge of the truth, that leads us to being free of the corrupting pollutions of this world... for all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 1 John 2:16



JLB

I know people who know the way to righteousness...but reject it. They remain unsaved.

No one can snatch you from Jesus' hand.

 

[Deborah13]

This being true, that we become unclean by being unequally yoked with unbelievers, Paul has to explain to the Corinthians that in marriage the unclean person, and the resulting unclean children of that marriage, are made clean insofar as them not making the believing spouse unclean by being yoked with them. God makes it so you are not made unclean in marriage because of your unbelieving spouse and as a result cut off from the promise of his blessing. So stay married to them and don't use their uncleanness as a reason to divorce them. God sanctifies them (makes them clean) in the case of marriage. He does not save them. He makes them clean in regard to you being bound to them in a way that, technically, is not allowed by God and which would make you unclean.

I think that there is another aspect to these verses.

1Co 7:14 for the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife, and the unbelieving wife hath been sanctified in the husband; otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Under the law some types of mixed marriages [Jewish faith with non-Jewish faith] - the marriage was not recognized as a legal marriage] and the children of that non-marriage would be considered illegitimate and would not be allowed into citizenship as natural born children of Israel, but would be outcasts. It is written in the OT scriptures.
Paul is saying that these marriages are, in God's eyes, sanctified marriages and therefore, the children are not illegitimate, they are holy/sanctified, and so are allowed to attend church, etc. because of the believing parent. Can anyone imagine going to church and not be allowed to put your child in Sunday school classes or Children's Church services because their other parent was not a believer! This would even keep believing children at eight, nine, ten, whatever, from being baptisted until they were fully adults, not under their parents.
[See the commentaries of Adam Clarke, John Gill and others on this matter.]
ie. Timothy

 

[JLB]

I know people who know the way to righteousness...but reject it. They remain unsaved.

No one can snatch you from Jesus' hand.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have already explained it. They were never saved.

But Peter says "escaped the defilements of the world" (2 Peter 2:20 NASB) means partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4 NASB). So how can you say they were never born again? And how can ezra agree with that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think that there is another aspect to these verses.

1Co 7:14 for the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife, and the unbelieving wife hath been sanctified in the husband; otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

Under the law some types of mixed marriages [Jewish faith with non-Jewish faith] - the marriage was not recognized as a legal marriage] and the children of that non-marriage would be considered illegitimate and would not be allowed into citizenship as natural born children of Israel, but would be outcasts. It is written in the OT scriptures.
Paul is saying that these marriages are, in God's eyes, sanctified marriages and therefore, the children are not illegitimate, they are holy/sanctified, and so are allowed to attend church, etc. because of the believing parent. Can anyone imagine going to church and not be allowed to put your child in Sunday school classes or Children's Church services because their other parent was not a believer! This would even keep believing children at eight, nine, ten, whatever, from being baptisted until they were fully adults, not under their parents.
[See the commentaries of Adam Clarke, John Gill and others on this matter.]
ie. Timothy

That's all well and good, but the context in which he is explaining this is the matter of legitimate divorce for the Christian, not citizenship, or whatever else. You don't have to, nor should you, divorce an unbelieving spouse on the grounds that they cause you to violate the promises of staying unbound to 'unclean' people spoken about in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASB. Paul is explaining God makes them clean (sanctified) for you in those circumstances. Stay with them, if they are willing to stay with you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here's my beef with you...You perform "works" to remain saved.

No, I perform works because I remain saved. My works are the manifestation of my ongoing faith. That's why my works assure me of my salvation. New teaching for you, I'm sure. But please listen with an open heart.

That is what you have posted in the past. The substitute death of Christ on the cross where all of your sins were imputed to Him isn't enough to save you....so your theology says.

This is the Lounge, so I'm going to cut loose with a big .
Here's what I believe about the matter:

"5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7 NASB)

The mistake you and many, many others make is thinking that to then do works after being justified/saved by God's mercy and grace is trying to justify/ save yourself out of your own righteous merit. Not realizing that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB), is the faith that can then be seen in the fulfilling of the law (Galatians 5:6 NASB, Galatians 5:14 NASB).

I know this is probably new teaching for you. I only ask that you consider it with an honest, open heart. This truth has been almost utterly cast out of the Protestant church by the swell of leaven of bad teaching about OSAS. Don't be deceived just because so many respected scholars and teachers and leaders of the church don't know these truths and have filled the congregation up with the falseness of what they teach. This is not the first time the people of God have been led astray on a wholesale scale into falseness.

 

[Cygnus]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

If we abide in Christ and bear fruit we can know that we are truly His. Some are cut off because they are not His — they try to attach themselves to Christ without abiding in Him through faith. But those who bear fruit are His, and they have been cleansed by Him (15:3). They will not be cut off. Those who bear no fruit are just dead wood and were never truly a part of the vine to begin with. ref

 

[Cygnus]

Once more John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

If you can lose your salvation...you can be snatched. Guess what? The bible says you can't be snatched.

 

[Deborah13]

That's all well and good, but the context in which he is explaining this is the matter of legitimate divorce for the Christian, not citizenship, or whatever else. You don't have to, nor should you, divorce an unbelieving spouse on the grounds that they cause you to violate the promises of staying unbound to 'unclean' people spoken about in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASB. Paul is explaining God makes them clean (sanctified) for you in those circumstances. Stay with them, if they are willing to stay with you.

I was not disagreeing with you, sheesh...just adding to what you said.

 

[Wrg1405]

I suspect there's a difference between backsliding into drugs and alcohol versus backsliding into unbelief. I can struggle with my fleshly sins and still be a believer. The optimum word I used here is "struggle." It's one thing to struggle with sin and a totally different one to embrace sin.

I agree with you. I would like to add a different dimension. Jesus said that he must go back to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of its sin and the worlds sin is unbelief in him.

Now if a person who having placed his faith in Jesus struggles with a particular sin/character trait like addiction, anger, pornography or gluttony yet hates it and wants rid of it because they want to be like Jesus to be the person God wants them to be then I would say they are saved but also have an element of unbelief.

Not an unbelief that Jesus is the Son of God who died and rose again but an unbelief that Jesus can heal them and set them free. People can have deep rooted learned patterns of behaviour, psychological problems that cause these character traits which they cannot break. Which as I said is not due to an unbelief in Jesus but his promises.

Most people in this situation will lack belief that God so much loves them that he died for them as they are and not when they break these traits. If they go one day without getting angry God loves them but if the next day they get angry then God does not love them. They have a twisted concept of grace and God's love which leads to works based theology/salvation.

They don't embrace sin but neither do they embrace the promises of Jesus and the power of Holy Spirit to help them and release them, set them free. Satan has a foothold and has caused barriers to build up against the grace and love of God which further paralyses them.

Those that are mature in the faith should be able to discerne this. Jesus himself said that the only work God requires is for you to beleive in me. When a person does that we need to remind them of that and remind them that Jesus also said you shall know the truth and the truth will set YOU FREE.

I had to remind someone the other day who was struggling that a man came to Jesus and said I beleive but help me overcome my unbelief. (Mar 9:21-27) Jesus healed the son.

A person can also have a twisted concept of Gods love and grace, this manifests itself as I can do what I don't want and it does not matter, if I sin more then it's covered. We know that Paul addressed this in Romans. So when we come across those people like Paul addressed in Romans we need to teach them that Jesus did not die so you can sin without consequences, then we need to explain what the Gospel is all about and that Jesus does expect a response that wants to be more like him and to die to sin and love God with all our heart and our soul and love our neighbours like God loves us.

If such a person refuses to change then they embrace sin, to me they are not saved and we can as Jesus says "Do not throw pearls to pigs cause they are just gonna trample over them"

 

[JLB]

Once more John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

If you can lose your salvation...you can be snatched. Guess what? The bible says you can't be snatched.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

The context is to His disciples. However those sheep of His, that meet the conditions of verse 27, He gave, which are:

• hear His voice = Give heed to, or consider; understand - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:29
• know Him, He knows them = Relationship; Eternal life
• follow Me = Obedience

Great Scripture.



JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is simple.
I'm curious. I want to know how many in this forum agree that the genuine believer who later stops believing is still saved despite them still being in unbelief on the day they died. Of course, there are probably an endless array of reasons why one would vote 'yes' or 'no', so just pick one and if you need to explain your answer, do that in a post.

You're curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
I say yes.
Why?
Because I believe you say no.

 

[reba]

Once more John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

If you can lose your salvation...you can be snatched. Guess what? The bible says you can't be snatched.

What about jumping out on your own?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What about jumping out on your own?

If you promote leaving God permanently, how does that edify the church?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You're curious.
Curiosity killed the cat.
I say yes.
Why?
Because I believe you say no.

Oh, Jethro Bodine, did you refer to me as Casanova?
Why?

 

[reba]

I do not promote such

If you promote leaving God permanently, how does that edify the church?

 

[Kidron]

I have looked for your post with questions i do not see them in post #33
Posts # 95 and #106 are directed to WIP i did not see questions..
Post #119 was directed to Wrg 1405 and also not a question

Post #121 is directed at me i do not see a question

And i n Post #125 you ask me about 3 questions ... where are they ? Did skip a post?

They are found in the thread....:

"How does the Blood of Christ save you".