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Do you agree, or disagree?

Does a genuine believer who stops believing and dies in that unbelief remain saved?

  • Total voters
    20
reba said:
What about jumping out on your own?
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I have heard this. That we can jump out of the hand of God that Jesus promises that no one can snatch them out of
his hand.

To me that's saying that Gods grip ain't that strong. So let's suppose it isn't and we decide to prize open his fingers and go on our way. What does Jesus say? Those that have gone astray I seek out, I will seek them out and I wil carry them back on my shoulders.
 
JLB said:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

The context is to His disciples. However those sheep of His, that meet the conditions of verse 27, He gave, which are:
  • hear His voice = Give heed to, or consider; understand - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” Matthew 13:29
  • know Him, He knows them = Relationship; Eternal life
  • follow Me = Obedience

Great Scripture.



JLB
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You failed again...you see, it is talking about those saved...in Jesus hand...So, now you need a way to write between the lines and allow people to be snatched from Jesus hands. So you throw in the "follow me" condition. The verse is about salvation. Not losing it. The losing part you word smithed into the scripture. You turned the verse into a contradiction. Which is pretty bad hermeneutics if I must say so myself.
You take away the words "eternal life" and "never perish". By making the verse say what it doesn't you allow someone to be snatched from Jesus hand, losing eternal life...and perishing....despite the verse saying it can't happen.
 
Wrg1405 said:
I have heard this. That we can jump out of the hand of God that Jesus promises that no one can snatch them out of
his hand.

To me that's saying that Gods grip ain't that strong. So let's suppose it isn't and we decide to prize open his fingers and go on our way. What does Jesus say? Those that have gone astray I seek out, I will seek them out and I wil carry them back on my shoulders.
Click to expand...
I can not disagree.. So it comes back to never being saved in the first place..

Sin no longer matters ?
 
reba said:
What about jumping out on your own?
Click to expand...

The verse says "no one" That no one would also include you.

Secondly, if you did....stop following...as some suggest then that would mean you were deceived from the truth of Jesus and the Gospel. That deception then could be said as to snatching you from Jesus' hand...which the bible says can't happen.
 
Cygnus said:
The verse says "no one" That no one would also include you.

Secondly, if you did....stop following...as some suggest then that would mean you were deceived from the truth of Jesus and the Gospel. That deception then could be said as to snatching you from Jesus' hand...which the bible says can't happen.
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That is uaverslim and i have spell check.
 
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this teaches a licence to sin.. So Jim Bakker not a bad guy nor is Swaggart there are no false teachers .. .we are all saved
 
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reba said:
this teaches a licence to sin.. So Jim Bakker not a bad guy nor is Swaggart there are no false teachers .. .we are all saved
Click to expand...

Have you never read Romans 6:1?

1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?

Paul says we don't have a license to sin.
 
reba said:
I can not disagree.. So it comes back to never being saved in the first place..

Sin no longer matters ?
Click to expand...

I don't think we should question never being saved in the first place, if we do so then maybe we are playing God.
We have no idea what's in a persons heart, only God does. We could look at David as an example.

Sin does matter that's why Jesus died and that is why David had to suffer the consequences of his sin.
But God said of David he is a man after my own heart. His heart was to please God and be like him
 
Cygnus said:
You failed again...you see, it is talking about those saved...in Jesus hand...So, now you need a way to write between the lines and allow people to be snatched from Jesus hands. So you throw in the "follow me" condition. The verse is about salvation. Not losing it. The losing part you word smithed into the scripture. You turned the verse into a contradiction. Which is pretty bad hermeneutics if I must say so myself.
You take away the words "eternal life" and "never perish". By making the verse say what it doesn't you allow someone to be snatched from Jesus hand, losing eternal life...and perishing....despite the verse saying it can't happen.
Click to expand...


Your going to have to do better than attack me with remarks, and state opinion with no scripture.

Please go ahead and post the scriptures that prove His sheep that He gives eternal life to, are not required to meet the conditions of He set forth, in John 10:27

Eternal life and not be snatched out of His hand is given to His sheep who:

...hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27

The result of meeting the conditions of hearing His Voice, and following Him is:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28


JLB



 
Cygnus said:
It says they had the KNOWLEDGE. It doesn't say they were saved then lost it.

They simply made a profession of the truth but never possessing the new life of Christ....later rejecting the truth.
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They had the KNOWLEDGE of what exactly?
What does KNOWLEDGE mean anyway?

Back in Genesis God told Adam not to eat of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
So knowledge must mean knowing something and the effect it causes. Genesis 2:17

Adam knew only good. Then he ate of the fruit, now he KNEW evil too. He gained the KNOWLEDGE of good AND evil. And evil became real.

If one has the knowledge of the gospel and ESCAPED THE DEFILEMENT OF THE WORLD by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then are AGAIN entangled in them -
I'd say the person was had the knowledge of the gospel, escaped the defilement of the world, and then became lost again when they went back into the world. This might be called backsliding today.

2 Peter 2:21
If would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness. Who is righteous? The unsaved?

Interesting that Peter wrote this letter to warn of the danger of false teachers. And what was the false teaching?:
LAWLESSNESS that came from false teachings. Antinomianism - the HERESY that states that a Christian does not have to be moral. Today we call this hyper grace.

By the very writings in Peter we see that LAWFULNESS is necessary to be a Christian and one must also be moral.

Why do some have such a problem with this?
They'll say that they do not mean that one can sin - so then why debate this matter so much?
To my understanding, one debates this and believes in eternal salvation so as not to feel guilt because of a deep rooted desire to NOT adhere to the commandments which God set forth.

I can see no other reason.

Wondering
 
wondering said:
They had the KNOWLEDGE of what exactly?
What does KNOWLEDGE mean anyway?

Back in Genesis God told Adam not to eat of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
So knowledge must mean knowing something and the effect it causes. Genesis 2:17

Adam knew only good. Then he ate of the fruit, now he KNEW evil too. He gained the KNOWLEDGE of good AND evil. And evil became real.

If one has the knowledge of the gospel and ESCAPED THE DEFILEMENT OF THE WORLD by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then are AGAIN entangled in them -
I'd say the person was had the knowledge of the gospel, escaped the defilement of the world, and then became lost again when they went back into the world. This might be called backsliding today.

2 Peter 2:21
If would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness. Who is righteous? The unsaved?

Interesting that Peter wrote this letter to warn of the danger of false teachers. And what was the false teaching?:
LAWLESSNESS that came from false teachings. Antinomianism - the HERESY that states that a Christian does not have to be moral. Today we call this hyper grace.

By the very writings in Peter we see that LAWFULNESS is necessary to be a Christian and one must also be moral.

Why do some have such a problem with this?
They'll say that they do not mean that one can sin - so then why debate this matter so much?
To my understanding, one debates this and believes in eternal salvation so as not to feel guilt because of a deep rooted desire to NOT adhere to the commandments which God set forth.

I can see no other reason.

Wondering
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Being saved is only one foot away.
From the head to the heart.
Which one do you have?
 
Cygnus said:
1st John 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony God has given about His Son. 11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Learn more on the assurance of salvation.

Above you said "In your doctrine, you know that you are genuinely saved by whether or not your faith eventually gets exposed as having been fake all along by a failure of that faith. Which you can not know until you die. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security? Really?"

What in the world are you talking about? Your point appears to be very strawmanish.
Click to expand...
How do YOU know you are really saved?
You might wander away one day and realize you were never saved to begin with!
What assurance do you REALLY have if being saved is not up to you?
If it does not depend on your faith in Christ, but on the fact that God chose you?
HOW can you be sure God REALLY chose you and this feeling you have is not just some wishful thinking on your part?

I'd be worried if I were you.

Wondering
 
JLB said:
Your going to have to do better than attack me with remarks, and state opinion with no scripture.

Please go ahead and post the scriptures that prove His sheep that He gives eternal life to, are not required to meet the conditions of He set forth, in John 10:27

Eternal life and not be snatched out of His hand is given to His sheep who:

...hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27

The result of meeting the conditions of hearing His Voice, and following Him is:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28


JLB


I'm not not dissing what you say but what about the dumb sheep who goes astray, wandered of the path that Jesus goes and seeks out and carries back? As I said not getting at you.
Click to expand...
 
JLB said:
Your going to have to do better than attack me with remarks, and state opinion with no scripture.

Please go ahead and post the scriptures that prove His sheep that He gives eternal life to, are not required to meet the conditions of He set forth, in John 10:27

Eternal life and not be snatched out of His hand is given to His sheep who:

...hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27

The result of meeting the conditions of hearing His Voice, and following Him is:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28


JLB
Click to expand...

Salvation is a gift from God.....there are no conditions required to receive a gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
 
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