Do you agree, or disagree?

[Jethro Bodine]

Something just doesn't sound right?

I get it, turnorburn. I understand what you're saying. But you just have to understand she is not a flippant go with the crowd kind of person. You just have to trust me on this. She's not a regular person. Not even close. She is very defensive and questioning and does not get taken in for anything. She is not some ding-a-ling who just decided she's going to have the gift of tongues like everybody else, and because she's supposed to have it. Trust me on this.

 

[turnorburn]

That's the evidence? speaking in tongues? where's the love of God? Does she "Know Jesus" I'd be looking for what she has to say about Jesus..

Just trying to help brother..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's the evidence? speaking in tongues? where's the love of God? Does she "Know Jesus" I'd be looking for what she has to say about Jesus..

Just trying to help brother..

I guess you're not following.
She does not believe anymore. Hasn't for years. She does not speak in tongues anymore. She did that when she believed.

 

[Eugene]

This is simple.
I'm curious. I want to know how many in this forum agree that the genuine believer who later stops believing is still saved despite them still being in unbelief on the day they died. Of course, there are probably an endless array of reasons why one would vote 'yes' or 'no', so just pick one and if you need to explain your answer, do that in a post.

QUESTION. You having a battle with the flesh?
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. The laws of our land are given by those God puts into power.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and THEY THAT RESIST SHALL RECEIVE TO THEMSELVES DAMNATION.
WHOSOEVER CONTINUES TO BREAK THE SPEEDLIMIT IS GOING TO HELL HUH?
They have resisted the ordinance of God. UNBELIEF thinking God is not going to get them? Oh my!

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. QUIT SPEEDING YOU ROTTEN PEOPLE!!!!!
Oh wait, I voted with the idea that once we’re born of God, we remain His child.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (As long as we keep believing, and no longer speed huh?) I’ve even heard of a husband becoming angry with their wife; is that really showing the love of God? Murder I tell you, and no

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Do you think that speeding is doing the will of God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

QUESTION. You having a battle with the flesh?
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. The laws of our land are given by those God puts into power.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and THEY THAT RESIST SHALL RECEIVE TO THEMSELVES DAMNATION.
WHOSOEVER CONTINUES TO BREAK THE SPEEDLIMIT IS GOING TO HELL HUH?
They have resisted the ordinance of God. UNBELIEF thinking God is not going to get them? Oh my!

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. QUIT SPEEDING YOU ROTTEN PEOPLE!!!!!
Oh wait, I voted with the idea that once we’re born of God, we remain His child.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (As long as we keep believing, and no longer speed huh?) I’ve even heard of a husband becoming angry with their wife; is that really showing the love of God? Murder I tell you, and no

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Do you think that speeding is doing the will of God?

Oh my God, Eugene, I've explained this to you several times.
Why don't you ever get it?

Why is it so hard for you to recognize the difference between sinning because you are afraid, or tired, or lonely, or just being plain stupid, and sinning because you do not believe in God's forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ?

 

[Eugene]

Oh my God, Eugene, I've explained this to you several times.
Why don't you ever get it?

Why is it so hard for you to recognize the difference between sinning because you are afraid, or tired, or lonely, or just being plain stupid, and sinning because you do not believe in God's forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ?

I reckon it's because I believe that God does the keeping, and not us: it is God's faithfulness that provided the sacrifice by grace, gave us faith to believe by grace, and has delivered us from death unto life by grace and that eternally.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's the evidence? speaking in tongues?

(I almost forgot to address this.)
Tongues was how the Apostles knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that God had accepted the gentiles and given them the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deborah13]

QUESTION. You having a battle with the flesh?
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. The laws of our land are given by those God puts into power.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and THEY THAT RESIST SHALL RECEIVE TO THEMSELVES DAMNATION.
WHOSOEVER CONTINUES TO BREAK THE SPEEDLIMIT IS GOING TO HELL HUH?
They have resisted the ordinance of God. UNBELIEF thinking God is not going to get them? Oh my!

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. QUIT SPEEDING YOU ROTTEN PEOPLE!!!!!
Oh wait, I voted with the idea that once we’re born of God, we remain His child.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (As long as we keep believing, and no longer speed huh?) I’ve even heard of a husband becoming angry with their wife; is that really showing the love of God? Murder I tell you, and no

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Do you think that speeding is doing the will of God?

Which always brings up the question, when speaking of keeping one's account in the black, how much not doing the will of God does it take to lose one's salvation?
I clearly remember keeping one's account paid up from my Assemblies of God days.
Good works of faith are not about proving anything to God about ourselves, He already knows, good works are about proving to the world how good God is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I reckon it's because I believe that God does the keeping, and not us: it is God's faithfulness that provided the sacrifice by grace, gave us faith to believe by grace, and has delivered us from death unto life by grace and that eternally.

You honestly can not see the difference between sinning because someone doesn't believe in Christ anymore, and sinning because they believe in God's forgiveness but are weak and are having a bad day? Really?

Having a bad day, while all the while believing in God's forgiveness, will not condemn you as an unbeliever. But sinning because you no longer believe in, or care about the forgiveness of God is quite different and will most certainly condemn the ex-believer to the fate of the unbelieving. This is a difference in sinning that I saw that the church is very ignorant about. They categorize all sin as unbelief in God's forgiveness, and since that sinning doesn't end their relationship with God they conclude unbelief must not result in losing one's salvation. That's a very distorted and uneducated conclusion. This erroneous conclusion derived from thinking that all sin by Christians is the sin of unbelief in the forgiveness of God is just one of many that fuels the spread of false doctrines in the church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which always brings up the question, when speaking of keeping one's account in the black, how much not doing the will of God does it take to lose one's salvation?
I clearly remember keeping one's account paid up from my Assemblies of God days. Good works of faith are not about proving anything to God about ourselves, He already knows, good works are about proving to the world how good God is.

See? Just more stupid, misguided, Spirit-less doctrine and reasoning in the church that has ruined the church and opened the door wide open to false doctrines. This really makes me mad. The church has been destroyed by the swell of unabated false teachings ruling God's people during this time of famine of the real truth of God's word. We are no different than ancient Israel when Baal worship captured all but the faithful remnant. And it took a drastic move of God to expel the grip of that falseness from the land. This time, however, the move of God that will do that is the final Judgment, IMO.

 

[Eugene]

You honestly can not see the difference between sinning because someone doesn't believe in Christ anymore, and sinning because they believe in God's forgiveness but are weak and are having a bad day? Really?

Having a bad day, while all the while believing in God's forgiveness, will not condemn you as an unbeliever. But sinning because you no longer believe in, or care about the forgiveness of God is quite different and will most certainly condemn the ex-believer to the fate of the unbelieving. This is a difference in sinning that I saw that the church is very ignorant about. They categorize all sin as unbelief in God's forgiveness, and since that sinning doesn't end their relationship with God they conclude unbelief must not result in losing one's salvation. That's a very distorted and uneducated conclusion. This erroneous conclusion derived from thinking that all sin by Christians is the sin of unbelief in the forgiveness of God is just one of many that fuels the spread of false doctrines in the church.

Why would you go out and kill 100 people tomorrow, and pretend you continue to believe in God? Does simply saying you believe and not doing the will of God, or as I brought up before in Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
With your teachings of condemnation, do you really believe you can go around killing everyone, or speeding, and confess you still believe in God?

 

[evenifigoalone]

(I almost forgot to address this.)
Tongues was how the Apostles knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that God had accepted the gentiles and given them the Holy Spirit.

Possibly a can of worms, but do you believe salvation is possible without tongues?
The denomination I grew up in typically rejects the idea of tongues entirely. I've only ever heard of it referenced, in testimonies, as speaking in languages you don't actually know in order to witness to people. (Specifically a guy was giving a testimony about how he was witnessing to this guy in Spanish when he didn't even know Spanish.)

 

[Corn Pop]

I thought the disciples spoke in there own native language. That's all I know about tounges, and the verse that says its one of a few gifts the Spirit can give.

Is there much clarity in scripture of what tounges actually is and does and is for?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

With your teachings of condemnation, do you really believe you can go around killing everyone, or speeding, and confess you still believe in God?

'My teachings of condemnation'.

Sinning for reasons other than unbelief in the blood of Christ can, obviously, be atoned for by your faith in Christ. But sinning because you do not believe in the blood of Christ can't, obviously, be atoned for by a faith in the blood you no longer have. So you can see it's very important to distinguish between the reasons why you're sinning before deciding 'condemnation' for speeding, or manslaughter, or walking on the grass is the second death.

Sinning because you do not believe in the blood of Christ has no blood of Christ to cover that sin. Obviously, sinning because of the growing pains of the trials and temptations that accompany your faith in the blood does have the blood of Christ to cover that sin. Any teaching of second death condemnation I have is directed toward those who don't have the blood of Christ available to them because of outright unbelief and/or contempt for the free gift to cover their sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Possibly a can of worms, but do you believe salvation is possible without tongues?

No question about it. As kiwidan says, it's only one of several gifts distributed as Christ sees fit (1 Corinthians 12:11 NIV).
I'm born again, Spirit filled and I have never uttered so much as a grunt of an unknown Spiritual language. Ultimately, the sign of the Holy Spirit in a person is the fruit of the Spirit. Tongues was/is useful as an immediate sign of receiving the Holy Spirit in salvation because, well, it's immediate. Peter didn't have to wait 20 years to see the righteous fruit of the Spirit brought to fruition in Cornelius' family to know they'd received the Holy Spirit and had been accepted by God (Acts 15:8 NIV). He says the gift of speaking in an unknown tongue was the evidence they had the Holy Spirit.

The denomination I grew up in typically rejects the idea of tongues entirely.

....and people who do speak in tongues know how entirely misguided they are. I'm not condemning you because I know how it works that we believe what we've been taught. The blame lies somewhere down the line in leadership with the person who decided that the gift of tongues has 'passed away' and taught that to the people of God.

I've only ever heard of it referenced, in testimonies, as speaking in languages you don't actually know in order to witness to people. (Specifically a guy was giving a testimony about how he was witnessing to this guy in Spanish when he didn't even know Spanish.)

I've heard that too, and I believe that (remember, I'm talking as an outsider to the gift).
I fellowshipped in a small Full Gospel church where we used to scrutinize the charismatic movement, which we were all a part of. We learned from the scriptures themselves that tongues is essentially "declaring the wonders of God" (Acts 2:11 NIV). It's primarily an ecstatic praise language. It's an instant praise and worship service with God by and through the Holy Spirit to build up and edify the believer. And I'm going to stop there and defer to those who actually talk in tongues. They know best the gift of tongues and how it works in the church.

Is there much clarity in scripture of what tounges actually is and does and is for?

What tongues is (bold part):

4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:4,9-11 NIV bold mine)

What it does and is for:

"4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves" (1 Corinthians 14:4 NIV)

But when a person hearing the tongues being spoken has the interpretation of the tongues being spoken, as happened on the Day of Pentecost, the hearer is also edified:

"unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5 NIV)

And if anyone tries to tell you the gifts are not for today, remind them what Peter said to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost when the gifts of the Spirit were poured out on the disciples:

"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”" (Acts 2:38-39 NIV bold and underline mine)

 

[Cygnus]

Snatched no ... jump out yup .
the case always comes back to 'well s/he wasn't really saved"

So you can "jump out" of salvation? I was under the impression the "no one" in the verse included yourself.

A side note, I think if an individual could lose their salvation then Jesus would have talked about it in great detail and not hide it within a parable or a passage where one has to read between the lines to make it appear as if one could lose their salvation. The book of Romans would be a chapter longer as Paul would have written about it in great detail.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Like Cygnus said you can't snatch someone from Jesus' hand. That's Biblically impossible. If this is true unbelief then the person wasn't really saved to begin with. If this is just some temporary crisis of unbelief the person is going through then they will go to heaven because Jesus forgives them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Like Cygnus said you can't snatch someone from Jesus' hand. That's Biblically impossible. If this is true unbelief then the person wasn't really saved to begin with. If this is just some temporary crisis of unbelief the person is going through then they will go to heaven because Jesus forgives them.

Interesting concept.
"the person wasn't really saved to begin with."

I find this very disturbing indeed.

How does a Calvinist rest in his faith in God if he can never be too sure if he's saved or not because what if he falls away and was never really saved to begin with.

This question alone would not allow me to be a Calvinist.

I believe I could lose my salvation.

But right now, my dear brother in Christ, I'M SURE that I'm saved.
YOU, OTOH, cannot be sure.

Wondering

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

No question about it. As kiwidan says, it's only one of several gifts distributed as Christ sees fit (1 Corinthians 12:11 NIV).
I'm born again, Spirit filled and I have never uttered so much as a grunt of an unknown Spiritual language. Ultimately, the sign of the Holy Spirit in a person is the fruit of the Spirit. Tongues was/is useful as an immediate sign of receiving the Holy Spirit in salvation because, well, it's immediate. Peter didn't have to wait 20 years to see the righteous fruit of the Spirit brought to fruition in Cornelius' family to know they'd received the Holy Spirit and had been accepted by God (Acts 15:8 NIV). He says the gift of speaking in an unknown tongue was the evidence they had the Holy Spirit.


....and people who do speak in tongues know how entirely misguided they are. I'm not condemning you because I know how it works that we believe what we've been taught. The blame lies somewhere down the line in leadership with the person who decided that the gift of tongues has 'passed away' and taught that to the people of God.


I've heard that too, and I believe that (remember, I'm talking as an outsider to the gift).
I fellowshipped in a small Full Gospel church where we used to scrutinize the charismatic movement, which we were all a part of. We learned from the scriptures themselves that tongues is essentially "declaring the wonders of God" (Acts 2:11 NIV). It's primarily an ecstatic praise language. It's an instant praise and worship service with God by and through the Holy Spirit to build up and edify the believer. And I'm going to stop there and defer to those who actually talk in tongues. They know best the gift of tongues and how it works in the church.


What tongues is (bold part):

4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:4,9-11 NIV bold mine)

What it does and is for:

"4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves" (1 Corinthians 14:4 NIV)

But when a person hearing the tongues being spoken has the interpretation of the tongues being spoken, as happened on the Day of Pentecost, the hearer is also edified:

"unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified." (1 Corinthians 14:5 NIV)

And if anyone tries to tell you the gifts are not for today, remind them what Peter said to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost when the gifts of the Spirit were poured out on the disciples:

"38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”" (Acts 2:38-39 NIV bold and underline mine)

I believe in speaking in tongues and I don't believe that the gifts of the Spirit are gone. However, I don't believe that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation. Galatians 5:22-23 says, "But the great of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law." If you have none of those qualities you aren't filled with the Holy Spirit. I used to work with mentally ill people who were filled with demons and they spoke in tongues. Tongues has a use in the church but that gift isn't the only sign of salvation.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Interesting concept.
"the person wasn't really saved to begin with."

I find this very disturbing indeed.

How does a Calvinist rest in his faith in God if he can never be too sure if he's saved or not because what if he falls away and was never really saved to begin with.

This question alone would not allow me to be a Calvinist.

I believe I could lose my salvation.

But right now, my dear brother in Christ, I'M SURE that I'm saved.
YOU, OTOH, cannot be sure.

Wondering

I'm very sure I'm saved. You confuse me. You quote the very scripture that Calvinists do to prove their theology, yet you don't really believe it to be true. There are many scriptures that prove that people were not really saved even though they acted like it. Matthew 7:22-23 says, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your nam, and done many wonder in Your name? And then I will declare to the, I never knew you; depart from me, you practice lawlessness." In Luke 8 Jesus talks about the sower. Some heard and received the word and because of temptation they fell away because the root wasn't strong enough.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of Calvinism. Calvinists are sure of their salvation. Arminians aren't. They are the ones that believe we can lose our salvation. I believe the Lord pursued me my whole life, He saved me, and I can't ever be unsaved.