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Do you agree, or disagree?

Does a genuine believer who stops believing and dies in that unbelief remain saved?


  • Total voters
    20
If you can lose salvation through "unbelief"...that is if you once were a true believer then the bible is wrong and you can be snatched from Jesus' hand.
It seems to come to the question, at what point can I be assured that I am a "true believer?" How can I know without doubt that I am a true believer when I continue to live in the flesh willfully. In other words, today I can say I believe and in that very moment I might even believe that I believe and yet a week later I will go on living the way I was, partying and carousing, cussing, cheating on my taxes, being selfish and living for number one (ergo, me), engaging in sexual promiscuity and adultery, being abusive when I get angry, and basically continuing my sinful lifestyle as though nothing has changed.

If I am truly saved, it would seem to me that my heart's desire would be to please God in any and every way I can. My whole life would be devoted to serving Him, worshiping Him, admiring Him, loving Him and that love would manifest itself in the way I treat others. If I still desire to live in the flesh then I must not yet be saved.
 
I've not heard the term "Hyper-Grace" before but I have heard the term Antinomianism.

Antinomianism (based on the Greek word for Lawlessness) is the polar opposite of legalism. But are we surprised to find that there are ditches on both sides of the road? Such a false teaching works (through false permissions) to empty the value of His Grace to the point that Christians can no longer call Him "Father" in truth.


Timothy gives us the middle road with the little word, "and":
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity."
 
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In fact, it would have been better had they never believed in the first place.

That's exactly what the scriptures teach us.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21


JLB
 
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I've not heard the term "Hyper-Grace" before but I have heard the term Antinomianism.

Antinomianism (based on the Greek word for Lawlessness) is the polar opposite of legalism. But are we surprised to find that there are ditches on both sides of the road? Such a false teaching works (through false permissions) to empty the value of His Grace to the point that Christians can no longer call Him, "Father" in truth.


Timothy gives us the middle road with the little word, "and":

Yes sir! Well said. :salute

Not looking to the left hand, or to the right hand [ditch], but walking with Him who is the perfect balance of grace and truth.

That is why we need Him to lead us in the paths of righteousness, for if we knew the way, we wouldn't need to be led.

He will lead us in the perfect balance between [the ditch's of] legalism and lawlessness.


JLB
 
So you can "jump out" of salvation? I was under the impression the "no one" in the verse included yourself.

A side note, I think if an individual could lose their salvation then Jesus would have talked about it in great detail and not hide it within a parable or a passage where one has to read between the lines to make it appear as if one could lose their salvation. The book of Romans would be a chapter longer as Paul would have written about it in great detail.

If God doesn't violate a person's free will, to choose to be saved [reconciled to Him], why would he do so, to keep someone saved?

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

...if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of our soul, which we receive at the end of our faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


In this life we will surely have trials, and the testing of our faith, for it is those who endure to the end that are saved.



JLB
 
What I learned out of it, kiwidan, is that the fruit of the Spirit is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit that matters.

Okay. We can ALL agree on this statement right here.

There are a couple scriptures that give me warnings about losing the Holy Spirit, but I think they are to the true believers.........so that we don't take the Holy Spirit for granted.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Like I stated before, genuine believers will know 100% like the air we need to breathe........listen to the Holy Spirit and the warnings.
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed - not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence - continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

The parable of the sower talks about different believers, but like I said.....the genuine ones have the good soil and you already know that.
The other believers stated in the parable believe in "something", but not the gospel and Christ coming in flesh.

Jethro, these scriptures were for everyone. So maybe we can all get on the same page with salvation for once? Why would an unbeliever or a "maybe believer" care about warnings about losing the Holy Spirit? I don't think they would care. A true believer would listen to the warnings. They would and they do.

Let God's grace and mercy flow through "us" as believers. Give God the benefit of the doubt and don't write off your wife as having the Holy Spirit and losing it. I'm not going to write off my husband as a forever unbeliever. And even if that may be the case, we have this:

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband.
 
I don't believe that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation.
It was a sign that they received the Holy Spirit and were accepted by God to Peter:

"45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." (Acts 10:45-48 NASB)

"8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." (Acts 15:8-9 NASB)

I used to work with mentally ill people who were filled with demons and they spoke in tongues.
Well, if my wife's tongues were really just demonic tongues and not Holy Spirit inspired tongues then why did they stop after becoming an unbeliever?


Calvinists are sure of their salvation. Arminians aren't. They are the ones that believe we can lose our salvation.
What am I then? I have complete confidence in my salvation, because I have faith. Faith is what secures the sure gift of justification/salvation. I am absolutely sure of my salvation. Yet I know that if I stop believing I forfeit the surety of that salvation.

I think the fundamental problem is people don't understand what the Biblical basis for surety is. Biblical surety comes from having a high Priest who can never, ever fail in his duties, and having an absolutely perfect and efficacious Sacrifice, both successfully interceding for you in the True Temple in heaven before the Father, and which secures a life and place for you in a kingdom that will never cease. But people make Biblical surety out to mean they are sure they have the kingdom to come no matter what. See the difference?
 
Why would an unbeliever or a "maybe believer" care about warnings about losing the Holy Spirit? I don't think they would care. A true believer would listen to the warnings. They would and they do.
Well, that's certainly one form of OSAS that there is. Which I used to subscribe to. But then I realized I can't ignore Hebrews 10:29 NASB which talks about people sanctified by the blood of Jesus trampling on the blood of Christ and, as a result, being condemned with the unbelievers.

Give God the benefit of the doubt and don't write off your wife as having the Holy Spirit and losing it. I'm not going to write off my husband as a forever unbeliever.
I'm not writing her or anyone else off as irretrievable who has fallen into unbelief. The point is, they are unsaved while in their state of unbelief. And if they die in that state they will be lost in the Judgment, not saved.

And even if that may be the case, we have this:

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband.
This doesn't mean our unbelieving spouses are saved because we are saved. Paul is explaining that we are not guilty of being in contact with unclean people when we are unequally yoked in marriage with an unbeliever, and therefore, we do not have to divorce them in order to be clean. Paul himself forbids contact with unclean people quoting the OT to make the point.

" 14Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

17Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord.
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.

18“And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty."
(2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASB caps in original, bold mine)

This being true, that we become unclean by being unequally yoked with unbelievers, Paul has to explain to the Corinthians that in marriage the unclean person, and the resulting unclean children of that marriage, are made clean insofar as them not making the believing spouse unclean by being yoked with them. God makes it so you are not made unclean in marriage because of your unbelieving spouse and as a result cut off from the promise of his blessing. So stay married to them and don't use their uncleanness as a reason to divorce them. God sanctifies them (makes them clean) in the case of marriage. He does not save them. He makes them clean in regard to you being bound to them in a way that, technically, is not allowed by God and which would make you unclean.
 
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Interesting concept.
"the person wasn't really saved to begin with."

I find this very disturbing indeed.

Perhaps you ought to learn where that "very disturbing" concept came from.

1st John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

How does a Calvinist rest in his faith in God if he can never be too sure if he's saved or not because what if he falls away and was never really saved to begin with.

Even Calvinist have the ability to play church.

This question alone would not allow me to be a Calvinist.

Then be something else.

I believe I could lose my salvation.

If that's a possibility...you already have.

But right now, my dear brother in Christ, I'M SURE that I'm saved.

Good for you.

YOU, OTOH, cannot be sure.

Wondering

Your logic appearsto have failed.
 
Your logic appearsto have failed.
No, her logic is spot on.
If you say that the person who fails in their faith was never saved to begin with, then your potential failure of faith tomorrow will mean the surety of salvation you had today wasn't really that at all. You were deceived. And you can never really know if you're truly saved until you stand before God after you leave the body and all opportunities for falling from the faith have been exhausted. Understand?

And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of security????

If that's a possibility...you already have.
This is some of the most convoluted logic I have ever heard.
If a person has faith in Christ they are saved. They presently have the sure ministry of Christ in salvation.
If a person abandons that faith they cease to be saved. They presently do NOT have the sure ministry of Christ in salvation.
Simply knowing this does not make it so you presently do not have faith and, therefore, are not saved. That's absurd.
 
God sanctifies them (makes them clean) in the case of marriage. He does not save them. He makes them clean in regard to you being bound to them in a way that, technically, is not allowed by God and which makes you unclean.

I just don't agree with what you stated.

I will put my trust in God's word to have my spouse sanctified through my belief. He knows everything I know about Christ. I don't know for sure what is going to happen with him at judgement, but I will rely on that sanctification for him. Cause I can't do anything else at this point.
 
1st John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Oh, I was curious how this means they were never saved to begin with. Where do you get that this means they never believed the truth to begin with? It says that at some point in time they were not of them and because of that left their ministry.
 
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I just don't agree with what you stated.

I will put my trust in God's word to have my spouse sanctified through my belief. He knows everything I know about Christ. I don't know for sure what is going to happen with him at judgement, but I will rely on that sanctification for him. Cause I can't do anything else at this point.
That's fine, I'm not going to argue with you or discourage you in your faith concerning your husband's salvation. But please don't ignore that the context in which Paul is speaking is grounds for divorce, not the salvation of our spouses. But by all means, continue to believe that God will bring your unbelieving spouse to a knowledge of the truth. He is certainly entitled to a special avenue of God's grace because you, as his wife, believe and are interceding on his behalf. It's just that the passage is not a guarantee that he will in fact be saved. I wish it was. I really do.
 
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That's fine, I'm not going to argue with you or discourage you in your faith concerning your husband's salvation. But please don't ignore that the context in which Paul is speaking is grounds for divorce, not the salvation of our spouses. But by all means, continue to believe that God will bring your unbelieving spouse to a knowledge of the truth. He is certainly entitled to a special avenue of God's grace because you, as his wife, believe.

I know. And this special avenue is definitely because us as believers are salt and light. :)
 
I If I still desire to live in the flesh then I must not yet be saved.
-
Your salvation is not based on how you feel.
Your salvation is based on what Christ has done for you on a Cross, that God accepts on your behalf.
So, if after this happens and time goes on, you are not as perfect in your behavior as you feel you should be, then this is the proof that you are saved, and not that you come to exist within a profoundly spiritual dimension where all your thoughts and words and deeds are perfect in holiness, as that will never happen in your lifetime.
You will "grow in grace and be changed from glory to glory", and you will look back on 10 years and then 20 and then 30 years of your Christian walk and say..."wow, i use to be like THAT, but now im like THIS"...."look at what has happened"....as only GOD and Christ in my life changing me could have brought me HERE"..

So, WIP... its the feeling of wanting to please God, of wanting to know more of Christ, of wanting to study the word and share the gospel......its the FEELING of wanting to be more like Jesus and hating it when you are not that motivates you to continue to try...is the feeling you should have if you are saved.
So, if you have THAT feeling, while realizing you are still quite far from it, then you are certainly on track.
 
Read my new thread about the horrors of the hyper-grace movement.

I am not a hyper-grace protagonist per-se. However I do have to say that 4 years ago when I wanted to come back to church (I didn't go for 10 years or so as mentioned in a previous post) I googled Grace of God and I stumble upon their website. I have to be honest and say that some of their teaching really helped break down barriers that I had, misconceptions that I had that caused me to shy away from God.

That being said there are some of their teachings that I do not go along with and reject and would not encourage at all.

Further I will still read the e-mails I get from them.

I know one of your worries is that it encourages Antinomianism, which I don't quite get because I'm not that way. I take my sin seriously, I hate it with a passion and desire to be holy just as God is holy.

The trouble is that there horrors in any demoninational theology.

I was once told that because I did not speak in tongues then I wasn't saved, I was taught works save.

Some teach if your not baptised you are not saved (this is true, when I asked about the thief on the cross the response was that they would have been baptised because it states in the bible that the whole land flocked to John the Baptist to be baptised, I thought really, a man who is hanging on a cross because of his crimes, would he really even thought about being baptised let alone being baptised)

When I was younger I went to and Anglican Church where baptism was a sprinkling of water. Anyway I asked to be baptised. About a week before at youth group I did or said something stupid as teenagers do and was told "That's why we are not sure about baptising you" that broke my heart, I was baptised/sprinkled but there's was no joy in it all.

I was once told that a serious knee injury I suffered that ruined a professional football career that was on the cards was a punishment from God because I played football on Sunday morning (even though I went to church in the evening).

Finally to cap it when I got married to my beautiful wife I invited people from a place I used to live a few hundred miles away. I was engaged to girl in the church that I went to but broke it off cause I knew it was not right and subsequently went off the rails. Anyway one of the people I invited to my wedding said to my soon to be mother in law "I thought the next time we would see him would be in jail" when I heard that I was devastated, why o why did they not come alongside me when I went off the rails and love me, encourage me. I would now say if they did I'm not sure I would want them to have come alongside me.

Anyway what i am trying to say that there are horrors of teaching in most denominations/movements/teachings.

I am certainly a Berean and always will be. I don't take lightly what I'm taught (well I don't now) I think we are responsible to test what we have been taught with scripture and not be led like blind fools.

Further more we are called to love each other, talk to each other in love, respond to each other in love and preach Jesus.

John 12:47-48
And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Let us not judge let the word judge and the word is Jesus. Let us all ensure we preach Jesus.
 
No, her logic is spot on.
If you say that the person who fails in their faith was never saved to begin with, then your potential failure of faith tomorrow will mean the surety of salvation you had today wasn't really that at all. You were deceived. And you can never really know if you're truly saved until you stand before God after you leave the body and all opportunities for falling from the faith have been exhausted. Understand?

And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of security????


This is some of the most convoluted logic I have ever heard.
If a person has faith in Christ they are saved. They presently have the sure ministry of Christ in salvation.
If a person abandons that faith they cease to be saved. They presently do NOT have the sure ministry of Christ in salvation.
Simply knowing this does not make it so you presently do not have faith and, therefore, are not saved. That's absurd.

You seem to be moving the goal post. I never said they failed in their faith in the way you repositioned the goal post.
 
Oh, I was curious how this means they were never saved to begin with. Where do you get that this means they never believed the truth to begin with? It says that at some point in time they were not of them and because of that left their ministry.

That could be true...but I'm unwilling to write those words into the text like you have done.
 
That could be true...but I'm unwilling to write those words into the text like you have done.
No, I didn't write any words into the text. That is quite literally what the verse says. What it does not say, or indicate, is whether or not these who left were always not of them and that's why they left. Check it out for yourself.

You seem to be moving the goal post. I never said they failed in their faith in the way you repositioned the goal post.
I'm aware that the so-called failure in faith in that particular version of OSAS does not mean they actually had faith to begin with. I'm just pointing out that for those who believe that the eventual outward, conscious display of having no faith means that person never had it in the first place means no one can be sure that what they think they have today really is saving faith, for tomorrow may be the day it gets revealed that it is not and, therefore, never has been. You can never know for sure if you're saved, or not while still in the body.

That's hardly a security or sureness of salvation that would give me comfort. But knowing that as long as I'm clinging to Christ for the forgiveness of sins at any one point in time that I possess the sure promise of salvation and eternal life, that is comforting and assuring and removes all doubt about whether I'm saved or not.
 
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I have to be honest and say that some of their teaching really helped break down barriers that I had, misconceptions that I had that caused me to shy away from God.

That being said there are some of their teachings that I do not go along with and reject and would not encourage at all.
I'm with you.
I have learned from, for example, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, and Worldwide Church of God, and prosperity teachings. Even atheists! Just because someone doesn't possess all the truth and is actively disseminating untruth doesn't mean they are completely and utterly wrong in everything. In regard to hyper-grace theology, the value of being distanced from 'religion' (in every negative sense of the word) is a valuable teaching, no matter who's mouth it comes out of. I'm saved because of the truth about that.

The trouble is that there horrors in any demoninational theology.

I was once told that because I did not speak in tongues then I wasn't saved, I was taught works save.
Ah, yes....old school Pentecostalism, right?

Some teach if your not baptised you are not saved (this is true, when I asked about the thief on the cross the response was that they would have been baptised because it states in the bible that the whole land flocked to John the Baptist to be baptised, I thought really, a man who is hanging on a cross because of his crimes, would he really even thought about being baptised let alone being baptised)

When I was younger I went to and Anglican Church where baptism was a sprinkling of water. Anyway I asked to be baptised. About a week before at youth group I did or said something stupid as teenagers do and was told "That's why we are not sure about baptising you" that broke my heart, I was baptised/sprinkled but there's was no joy in it all.

I was once told that a serious knee injury I suffered that ruined a professional football career that was on the cards was a punishment from God because I played football on Sunday morning (even though I went to church in the evening).

Finally to cap it when I got married to my beautiful wife I invited people from a place I used to live a few hundred miles away. I was engaged to girl in the church that I went to but broke it off cause I knew it was not right and subsequently went off the rails. Anyway one of the people I invited to my wedding said to my soon to be mother in law "I thought the next time we would see him would be in jail" when I heard that I was devastated, why o why did they not come alongside me when I went off the rails and love me, encourage me. I would now say if they did I'm not sure I would want them to have come alongside me.

Anyway what i am trying to say that there are horrors of teaching in most denominations/movements/teachings.
Yes, isn't the 'church of the world' wonderful!
My heart aches for us to cast off this misguided, Spirit-less foolishness and have REAL church. But let's not get on that soap box here. :lol

Anyway what i am trying to say that there are horrors of teaching in most denominations/movements/teachings.

I am certainly a Berean and always will be. I don't take lightly what I'm taught (well I don't now) I think we are responsible to test what we have been taught with scripture and not be led like blind fools.
And I'm confident if more Christians would be like this, false doctrines would be relegated to isolated sects out of the mainstream. But until then, and if, that happens false doctrines will continue to work through and be represented in the whole in what I like to call the 'church of the world'--misguided, devoid of the Spirit, worldly.

Further more we are called to love each other, talk to each other in love, respond to each other in love and preach Jesus.
It's entirely possible to do this and still call out false doctrines when we see them. In fact, that's what love does.
 
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