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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you haft to be baptized?
- Thread starter EricTheBaptist
- Start date
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Yet another issue that we come to and oftentimes end letting how we FEELINGS determine for us what it is we will accept, believe, and even promote.
Now we are told that Jesus was baptised to "fulfill all righteousness." The problem is that we do not even know what that means. Apologists have tried to rationalize it for centuries, yet no definitive conclusion exists, so Jesus' baptism really isn't helpful in helping us in determining the necessity of baptism.
Secondly, the question that often doesn't get asked is this: What is/was the specific purpose of baptism for the individual and what, if any relationship does baptism have to life after death?
This is a good starting point and as you start remember to leave feelings and the dogma that influences your judgment at the door so that you can make the proper unbiased evaluations.
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In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, -Matthew 3:1
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. -Matthew 3:2
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, -Matthew 3:5
And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. -Matthew 3:6
Are you saying that all Judaea, and Jerusalem were Christians when they came out of Jordan after being baptized by John?
A
Asyncritus
Guest
Just a reminder of FC's point which really surprised me when he put it up.
It was to do with John 3.16, and if you can see the Greek or find somebody who can, it will be most helpful.
The correct translation is:
"...that whosoever believeth INTO Him shall not perish ..."
The Greek is definitely EIS which means INTO. The word is NOT 'EN' which just as definitely means IN.
So He that believeth INTO Him means he the believes and is baptised INTO Christ shall be saved.
The reason I say that, and FC did too, is Romans 6: as many of us as have been baptised INTO (EIS) Jesus Christ were baptised into (EIS) his death...'
So I can't see any way of escaping the obvious facts of the case.
Baptism IS essential to salvation.
Jethro Bodine
Member
We know Biblically and experientially that people can be put into Christ without water baptism. That shows us God did not intend water baptism to be a hard and fast ceremony through which a person must be born again.
Water baptism is commanded, but not because it's legalistically the way a person is saved, no more than a person is saved because they kept the command to not steal or commit adultery, etc. even though the Bible plainly says those who don't obey those commands will not be saved either. But in regard to those things few think that means keeping them in and of itself does save a person.
I honestly think the problem is we do not understand how baptism was synonymous with repentance. To the early church the command to be baptized meant 'repent'. The focus of understanding was on repentance, not on the ceremony as some kind of legalistic ceremony you did to get the Holy Spirit. Repentance solicits the Holy Spirit. God commands that we show our repentance through water baptism. The issue with the person who resists water baptism is not the water baptism itself, but whether or not they have truly repented and changed their mind about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come.
"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. (Acts 26:20 NIV1984)
This is the message that needs to be taught, not whether or not water baptism is how a person gets saved.
Water baptism is commanded, but not because it's legalistically the way a person is saved, no more than a person is saved because they kept the command to not steal or commit adultery, etc. even though the Bible plainly says those who don't obey those commands will not be saved either. But in regard to those things few think that means keeping them in and of itself does save a person.
I honestly think the problem is we do not understand how baptism was synonymous with repentance. To the early church the command to be baptized meant 'repent'. The focus of understanding was on repentance, not on the ceremony as some kind of legalistic ceremony you did to get the Holy Spirit. Repentance solicits the Holy Spirit. God commands that we show our repentance through water baptism. The issue with the person who resists water baptism is not the water baptism itself, but whether or not they have truly repented and changed their mind about sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come.
"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. (Acts 26:20 NIV1984)
This is the message that needs to be taught, not whether or not water baptism is how a person gets saved.
Jethro Bodine
Member
From the account of Cornelius and his family:
46 Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.†(Acts 10:46-47 NIV1984)
By virtue of being given the Holy Spirit they have been added to the body of Christ. There are countless testimonies in the church today of people receiving the Holy Spirit and being born again prior to their water baptism. I'm one of them.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Exactly! The Holy Spirit shows they received the gospel. The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and are saved, not to those who will be saved.
Where does it say the reason they were given the Holy Spirit ahead of time was to show they are included in the gospel too? It's not reasonable to suggest God had to give the Holy Spirit ahead of time to convince the Jews that the gospel is open to the gentiles. The gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit in water baptism would be sufficient to show that God accepts the gentile just as he does the Jew.
It's a man made teaching that God did it the way he did (before water baptism) to prove to Peter and the Jews that the gospel is open to them too. Cornelius has already told Peter that God said he will tell him how to be saved. Why would Peter preaching the gospel to them, baptizing them in water, and then them receiving the Holy Spirit not convince Peter that God accepts the gentiles that God has to give them the Spirit ahead of baptism in order to convince him?
The scriptures don't say the timing of the Spirit is what confirmed the acceptance of the gentiles. What it does say is the giving of the Holy Spirit itself is the evidence of God's acceptance of the gentile.
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A
Asyncritus
Guest
Jethro, it is perfectly clear that this was an exceptional event. Notice the surrounding circumstances which are all pretty unusual:
Event 1 Cornelius sees the angel
Acts 10.3 He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius.
Event 2 Peter is notified.
Peter went up upon the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour:
10 and he became hungry, and desired to eat: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance;
11 and he beholdeth the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth:
12 wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts and creeping things of the earth and fowls of the heaven.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat.
Event 3: Peter takes witnesses with him
And on the morrow he arose and went forth with them, and certain of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
Event 4: Peter declares that he's really not sure about all this
28 and he said unto them, Ye yourselves know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to join himself or come unto one of another nation; and yet unto me hath God shewed that I should not call any man common or unclean:
Event 5: The Holy Spirit falls on them and they speak with tongues
44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word...
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
EVENT 6: Peter baptises them
47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Event 7: Peter goes back to Joppa and tells them why he baptised them
17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?
That is shown very clearly above.
Peter would not have baptised them, indeed he makes it clear that he would not even have gone into their house, if he hadn't had the vision.
And he wouldn't have baptized them if they hadn't received the Holy Spirit:
47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
The HSp was given BEFORE water baptism, not during, or after.
In those verses above, it says exactly that.
Jethro Bodine
Member
For as exceptional as you say it was, it is still happening this way to this very day in the church. There are countless testimonies in the church today of people being born again before they were water baptized. I'm one of them.
We see Peter faithfully obeying God to preach the gospel to the household of Cornelius, and you think he would not have told them to repent and be baptized as part of that message? That's unreasonable.
You've got two glaring problems on your hands in regard to this argument. 1) Many people to this day receive the Holy Spirit and are saved before and apart from water baptism. And 2) it can't be argued that there is no Biblical precedent that that can happen, for there surely is an example of that happening in the Bible.
The best thing to do is just accept the Bible for what it clearly shows us and not read bias into what the Bible itself says about water baptism.
As I explained, the real question is not 'do you haft to be baptized?' The real question is 'why do you ask?' The reason a person is not baptized determines if that disobedience, like all other disobediences, will keep them from being saved.
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Asyncritus
Guest
No Jethro, that's not the question at all.
The question is: are we going to obey the blindingly clear commandment given by Jesus, or not?
And as to disobediences which will keep them from being saved, what about disobedience of this one:
He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.
The like figure whereby baptism doth now also save us.
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Asyncritus
Guest
Tell you where I'm coming from, Jethro.
If scripture gives me precedent, I believe it, and I do it.
If it doesn't, I forget it.
Now I want you to give me precedent from scripture, that says ANYBODY AT ALL (and Cornelius is the sole exception for reasons given above) received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptised.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
So he preached remission of sins to them.
How were they to receive that?
That same Peter, at Pentecost, told everybody listening, exactly how it was going to happen, and who knows, Cornelius may have heard it even then:
Acts 2.38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and (1) be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and (2) ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Notice the order:
1 Be baptised FOR THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS
2 receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
So what's this you're trying to tell me: that you know better than the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter? That you received the Holy Spirit BEFORE you were baptised?
If you are, then you'll have to do better than just give me your opinion. Scripture is what I want, and scripture is what you need.
I don't know what you're talking about - from scripture.
Those people at Pentecost were 'cut to the heart':
37 ¶ Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” ESV
Is that what you mean by 'receiving the Holy Spirit'? How do you and they know that that is what is happening? Certainly you don't get it from scripture: if you do, please show me.
If you don't, then a drastic re-think of your position is definitely in order. Have you the courage to do it?
Jethro Bodine
Member
The precedent in scripture is Cornelius and his family were given the Holy Spirit before their water baptism with no explanation given why, just that it happened.
What the Bible does plainly explain is the giving of the Holy Spirit itself was the sign that the gentiles were included in the promise of the gospel, not the timing of the giving. The only way to make the scriptures say the timing was a special, one-time sign to Peter and the Jews that the gentiles were included in the gospel is to decide in your own reasoning what the meaning of the timing means. Because it simply does not say that.
The precedent is there. So if someone receives the Holy Spirit when they believe the gospel message before their water baptism, don't fight it. Like Peter, who are we to resist God who alone determines who he gives his Holy Spirit to and when. The glorious truth is that God gives his Holy Spirit to all who believe. And that glorious truth is sometimes fulfilled before and apart from water baptism. Accept it. It has clear Biblical support. Don't cloud what is important about all this (God gives his Holy Spirit) with what is not important about it (the exact moment he does that).
The mistake you're making is insisting Peter's sermon is a hard and fast, legalistic sequence of events on how to be born again through a ceremony rather than understanding it as the totality of a born-again experience. If one doesn't ignore or rationalize Cornelius' experience away by reading meanings into it that aren't written there, that is the only honest and reasonable conclusion to come to.
I quite plainly and undeniably had the same experience as Cornelius when I believed the gospel. It's impossible for you to say it's against scripture for me to have had the same experience. Impossible.
No.
I did not receive the Holy Spirit in salvation when I did not know what to do about my guilt and separation from God. Like Cornelius, I received the Holy Spirit when I heard and believed the gospel that "everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name” (Acts 10: NIV1984)...before my water baptism. For me, I did not 'haft' to be baptized for that to happen.
I know the exact moment when the Spirit of God came into my body and made me a son of God. The Bible says the presence of the Holy Spirit in salvation is self evident. It teaches us that it is not a reality that can only be accepted as true purely on faith. The Bible teaches us the Spirit himself confirms our adoption as children of God:
"16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." (Romans 8:16 NIV1984)
"...this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:24 NIV1984)
I had this confirmation of the Spirit immediately upon asking forgiveness for my sins and falling on the mercy of God, before my water baptism. And it's impossible to say that's Biblically impossible and unprecedented. Impossible.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
What is subjective about Cornelius and his family being saved as evidenced by the receiving of the Holy Spirit before their water baptism?
Don't misunderstand the resistance to the 'salvation at water baptism' argument as meaning 'you can ignore water baptism'. It is commanded and it should be done, like all the other things God commands. What's wrong with the baptism argument is not allowing God to give his Holy Spirit when and where and how he wants to when the gospel message is preached and people are baptized.
In a church that is baptizing it's members (with a couple of denominational exceptions) it's utterly meaningless to insist people were/are only saved at the moment of their baptism. If people are indeed getting baptized (and they are), isn't it a little misguided to dogmatically argue about when they actually got saved? Even worse, create an entire denomination to defend that one thing that even scripture itself shows is not a hard and fast formula or ceremony for how to be saved.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I don't know. I'm new to the forum and want to examine that option and any advantage it might offer before I decide. Also, I'm not sure I can commit to that kind of discussion.