Do you haft to be baptized?

[Asyncritus]

The precedent in scripture is Cornelius and his family were given the Holy Spirit before their water baptism with no explanation given why, just that it happened.

What the Bible does plainly explain is the giving of the Holy Spirit itself was the sign that the gentiles were included in the promise of the gospel, not the timing of the giving. The only way to make the scriptures say the timing was a special, one-time sign to Peter and the Jews that the gentiles were included in the gospel is to decide in your own reasoning what the meaning of the timing means. Because it simply does not say that.

You've answered your own question in the highlighted bit above.

The precedent is there. So if someone receives the Holy Spirit when they believe the gospel message before their water baptism, don't fight it.

You can't be serious. Do you mean that someone who receives the Holy Spirit before their baptism

1 has got an apostle present

2 Speaks in tongues

3 testifies to the Jews that the Gentiles are accepted by God into Christ?

Really? Permit me to be skeptical, won't you?

Like Peter, who are we to resist God who alone determines who he gives his Holy Spirit to and when. The glorious truth is that God gives his Holy Spirit to all who believe.

I wonder if you've noticed the number of times is says that XYZ, being filled with the spirit, does ABC?

Here's a listing for you:

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Ac 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Spirit, set his eyes on him,

In every case, it is obvious that up to that point in time, they WERE NOT filled with the spirit.

So I don't quite know where you get this from:

And that glorious truth is sometimes fulfilled before and apart from water baptism. Accept it. It has clear Biblical support. Don't cloud what is important about all this (God gives his Holy Spirit) with what is not important about it (the exact moment he does that).

The mistake you're making is insisting Peter's sermon is a hard and fast, legalistic sequence of events on how to be born again through a ceremony rather than understanding it as the totality of a born-again experience.

Why is it a mistake? Because it conflicts with your idea about the matter?

Well, I'd rather conflict with your opinion than with scripture, as you are now doing.

If one doesn't ignore or rationalize Cornelius' experience away by reading meanings into it that aren't written there, that is the only honest and reasonable conclusion to come to.

Ignore? Rationalise? Who was it that said this:

"the timing was a special, one-time sign..."

I quite plainly and undeniably had the same experience as Cornelius when I believed the gospel. It's impossible for you to say it's against scripture for me to have had the same experience. Impossible.

Permit me to be skeptical. You don't meet ANY of the 3 criteria abovementioned in the Acts record:

1 has got an apostle present

2 Speaks in tongues

3 testifies to the Jews that the Gentiles are accepted by God into Christ?

Did you?

I did not receive the Holy Spirit in salvation when I did not know what to do about my guilt and separation from God. Like Cornelius, I received the Holy Spirit when I heard and believed the gospel that "everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name” (Acts 10: NIV1984)...before my water baptism. For me, I did not 'have' to be baptized for that to happen.

But for everyone else in the Acts, it was the other way round. Paul and Peter are adamant about it:

Peter:

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Paul

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I see no deviation from this practice, and you really ought not to be encouraging others to disobey what is the very plain commandment and practice of the Lord and the apostles.

I know the exact moment when the Spirit of God came into my body and made me a son of God. The Bible says the presence of the Holy Spirit in salvation is self evident. It teaches us that it is not a reality that can only be accepted as true purely on faith. The Bible teaches us the Spirit himself confirms our adoption as children of God:

"16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." (Romans 8:16 NIV1984)

"...this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:24 NIV1984)

Please notice that Paul and John are writing to baptized believers, and the words need to be understood in that context.

The Romans 8 quote comes almost immediately after Romans ch 6 which is all about baptism in water.

I had this confirmation of the Spirit immediately upon asking forgiveness for my sins and falling on the mercy of God, before my water baptism. And it's impossible to say that's Biblically impossible and unprecedented. Impossible.

I have no wish to belittle what you claim happened to you. But you really haven't got much scriptural support for it, have you?

 

[kjb1769]

Why do people always want to add water every time they see the word baptise?

 

[jasoncran]

being baptised with the holy ghost doesnt have anything to do with water.

 

[francisdesales]

Why do people always want to add water every time they see the word baptise?

Is this a trick question?

Baptism, in Scriptures, means to immerse in water...

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said (high light by you):
"The only way to make the scriptures say the timing was a special, one-time sign to Peter and the Jews that the gentiles were included in the gospel is to decide in your own reasoning what the meaning of the timing means. Because it simply does not say that."

You've answered your own question in the highlighted bit above.

How is reiterating the popular argument I'm resisting answering my own question? What are you talking about?

This is the part you should have highlighted in my quote:

"The only way to make the scriptures say the timing was a special, one-time sign to Peter and the Jews that the gentiles were included in the gospel is to decide in your own reasoning what the meaning of the timing means. Because it simply does not say that."

To hold the argument you highlighted in my quote is to add to scripture, plain and simple. You have not provided where in the Bible it says that the timing of the giving of the Holy Spirit was the sign, and that it was a special one-time event only. What the scriptures do plainly say is the giving of the Holy Spirit was the sign. Opinions are fine. We're all entitled to them. But to insist they are dogmatic fact where the Bible does not say they are fact is very wrong to do...even dishonest.

You can't be serious. Do you mean that someone who receives the Holy Spirit before their baptism

1 has got an apostle present

2 Speaks in tongues

3 testifies to the Jews that the Gentiles are accepted by God into Christ?

Really? Permit me to be skeptical, won't you?

You left out the phase of the moon present at that time.

I wonder if you've noticed the number of times is says that XYZ, being filled with the spirit, does ABC?

Here's a listing for you:

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Ac 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Spirit, set his eyes on him,

In every case, it is obvious that up to that point in time, they WERE NOT filled with the spirit.

So I don't quite know where you get this from:

Why is it a mistake? Because it conflicts with your idea about the matter?

Well, I'd rather conflict with your opinion than with scripture, as you are now doing.

I wonder if you notice you left out the times "that XYZ, being filled with the spirit, does ABC?"

Was that a mistake, or "because it conflicts with your idea about the matter?"

Ignore? Rationalise? Who was it that said this:

"the timing was a special, one-time sign..."

Who says this?...everyone who is dead set on rationalizing away the Biblical fact that God gave his Holy Spirit to people before and apart from water baptism. So you know I definitely do not defend that argument. Hey, I know it happens...sometimes we misunderstand what someone was trying to say in their post. You just didn't get what I was saying in that part of my post.

Permit me to be skeptical. You don't meet ANY of the 3 criteria abovementioned in the Acts record:

1 has got an apostle present

2 Speaks in tongues

3 testifies to the Jews that the Gentiles are accepted by God into Christ?

Did you?

You are entitled to be as skeptical as you want, even in the face of plain scripture. But you still have yet to show where the Bible says that the timing of the giving of the Holy Spirit was the sign, and that it is special to that moment only. Until you do that your insistence on ABC always without exception = XYZ is your opinion...which you are certainly entitled to hold.

But for everyone else in the Acts, it was the other way round. Paul and Peter are adamant about it:

Peter:

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Paul

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I see no deviation from this practice...

That's because you refuse to acknowledge the places in the Bible where it does deviate.

...and you really ought not to be encouraging others to disobey what is the very plain commandment and practice of the Lord and the apostles.

You don't owe me the courtesy of giving my posts your complete and undivided attention...unless you are going to accuse me of saying something I never said. I have said quite the opposite in this thread.

Please notice that Paul and John are writing to baptized believers, and the words need to be understood in that context.

The Romans 8 quote comes almost immediately after Romans ch 6 which is all about baptism in water.

I had the same confirmation of the Spirit that the Bible talks about before my water baptism that I have had since my water baptism. And I have Biblical proof that God has given his Holy Spirit to people before water baptism...but I'm not allowed to think I received the Holy Spirit before I was water baptized? You're being unreasonable.

I have no wish to belittle what you claim happened to you. But you really haven't got much scriptural support for it, have you?

I have an actual example of it as happening unqualified by scripture as being a special one-time event. Add to that the testimony of the Spirit himself, and my own testimony, before I even knew there was a Cornelius in the Bible...and countless testimonies of others who say the same thing happened to them. Biblical support is one thing, but it is actually your argument that not only has no Biblical support for it, but has Biblical support against it. Your argument loses on both fronts.

 

[kjb1769]

Is this a trick question?

Baptism, in Scriptures, means to immerse in water...

Regards

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

 

[Asyncritus]

Why do people always want to add water every time they see the word baptise?

It's very simple kjb.

Every time in the NT the word 'baptize' is used, it's talking about water baptism.

There are only 2 exceptions to this rule as far as I know.

Mt 3:6 And were baptized <907> of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize <907> you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize <907> you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: EXCEPTION #1

Mt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized <907> of him.

Mt 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized <907> of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized <907>, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing <907> them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mr 1:4 John did baptize <907> in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mr 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were <907> all baptized <907> of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized <907> you with water: but he shall baptize <907> you with the Holy Ghost.

Mr 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized <907> of John in Jordan.

Mr 6:14 And king Herod heard of him; (for his name was spread abroad and he said, That John the Baptist <907> was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him.

Mr 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash <907>, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Mr 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized <907> with the baptism that I am baptized with <907>?

Mr 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal <907> shall ye be baptized <907>:

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized <907> shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized <907> of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Lu 3:12 Then came also publicans to be baptized <907>, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize <907> you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize <907> you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Lu 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized <907>, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized <907>, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized <907> with the baptism of John.

Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being <907> not baptized <907> of him.

Lu 11:38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had <907> not first washed <907> before dinner.

Lu 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with <907>; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Joh 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou <907> then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize <907> with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

Joh 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing <907>.

Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing <907> with water.

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize <907> with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth <907> with the Holy Ghost.

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized <907>.
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing <907> in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized <907>.

Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth <907>, and all men come to him.

Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized <907> more disciples than John,

Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized <907> not, but his disciples,)

Joh 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized <907>; and there he abode.

Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized <907> with water; but ye shall be baptized <907> with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized <907> every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized <907>: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized <907>, both men and women.

Ac 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized <907>, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Ac 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized <907> in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized <907>?

Ac 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized <907> him.

Ac 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized <907>.

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should <907> not be baptized <907>, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized <907> in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized <907> with water; but ye shall be baptized <907> with the Holy Ghost.EXCEPTION#2

Ac 16:15 And when she was baptized <907>, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Ac 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized <907>, he and all his, straightway.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized <907>.

Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized <907>? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized <907> with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized <907> in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Ac 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized <907>, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized <907> into Jesus Christ were baptized <907> into his death?

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized <907> in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized <907> none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized <907> in mine own name.

1Co 1:16 And I baptized <907> also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized <907> any other.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize <907>, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co 10:2 And were <907> all baptized <907> unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are <907> we all baptized <907> into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized <907> for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized <907> for the dead?

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized <907> into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

Yes and this is done by baptism through water, with the Spirit coming through that water, just as Philip and the Eunuch discussed - "Look, there is water over there, what is to prevent me from being baptized"?

Was he talking about John's baptism?

Regards

 

[Asyncritus]

I said (high light by you):
"The only way to make the scriptures say the timing was a special, one-time sign to Peter and the Jews that the gentiles were included in the gospel is to decide in your own reasoning what the meaning of the timing means. Because it simply does not say that."

How is reiterating the popular argument I'm resisting answering my own question? What are you talking about?

Maybe you expressed yourself badly and I took you wrong. Apologies.

This is the part you should have highlighted in my quote:

"The only way to make the scriptures say the timing was a special, one-time sign to Peter and the Jews that the gentiles were included in the gospel is to decide in your own reasoning what the meaning of the timing means. Because it simply does not say that."

To hold the argument you highlighted in my quote is to add to scripture, plain and simple. You have not provided where in the Bible it says that the timing of the giving of the Holy Spirit was the sign, and that it was a special one-time event only. What the scriptures do plainly say is the giving of the Holy Spirit was the sign. Opinions are fine. We're all entitled to them. But to insist they are dogmatic fact where the Bible does not say they are fact is very wrong to do...even dishonest.

You are refusing, as far as I can tell, to read and apply the very scripture you're quoting in support of your position.

What did John say?


Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize <907> you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize <907> you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Did you experience any fire as they did at Pentecost? No? If not, why not? And how do you explain the absence of the fire?

You left out the phase of the moon present at that time.

That wasn't even funny. Now answer the question:

You can't be serious. Do you mean that someone who receives the Holy Spirit before their baptism

1 has got an apostle present

2 Speaks in tongues

3 testifies to the Jews that the Gentiles are accepted by God into Christ?

That's because you refuse to acknowledge the places in the Bible where it does deviate.

There is only one such place, and it happens for a very distinct, clear reason.

Here it is again:

Acts 10.16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?

The reason:

18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

I had the same confirmation of the Spirit that the Bible talks about before my water baptism that I have had since my water baptism. And I have Biblical proof that God has given his Holy Spirit to people before water baptism...but I'm not allowed to think I received the Holy Spirit before I was water baptized? You're being unreasonable.

Can you explain if you received the tongues of fire as they did at Pentecost? Remember John said (as you've quoted many times):

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

I have an actual example of it as happening unqualified by scripture as being a special one-time event.

As I showed above, it is perfectly clear that it WAS a one-time event, and what's more, the reason is given equally clearly.

Those Jewish brethren would NEVER have believed that the Gentiles were being granted repentance unto life without the manifestation of the spirit that was given.

Add to that the testimony of the Spirit himself, and my own testimony, before I even knew there was a Cornelius in the Bible...and countless testimonies of others who say the same thing happened to them. Biblical support is one thing, but it is actually your argument that not only has no Biblical support for it, but has Biblical support against it. Your argument loses on both fronts.

What about the fire?

 

[kjb1769]

Yes and this is done by baptism through water, with the Spirit coming through that water, just as Philip and the Eunuch discussed - "Look, there is water over there, what is to prevent me from being baptized"?

Was he talking about John's baptism?

Regards

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

Read it again Jesus is the one baptizing with the Holy Ghost & with fire.

What happened here?

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. -Acts 19:2
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. -Acts 19:3

John's baptism was in water why no Holy Ghost if the Spirit comes through water?

 

[Asyncritus]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

Read it again Jesus is the one baptizing with the Holy Ghost & with fire.

What happened here?

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. -Acts 19:2
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. -Acts 19:3

John's baptism was in water why no Holy Ghost if the Spirit comes through water?

What about the fire?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are refusing, as far as I can tell, to read and apply the very scripture you're quoting in support of your position.

I'm not sure what scripture you're referring to that I quoted, but what I want you to do is show me the scripture that says the giving of the the Holy Spirit before water baptism was the sign, and not just the giving of the Holy Spirit itself. Okay?

I'm not asking for an interpretation you have concluded from the event (which you are certainly entitled to have), but the plain explanation, like how Peter explains it was the giving of the Holy Spirit that was the sign to him that God has indeed granted the gentiles repentance unto life.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize <907> you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize <907> you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Did you experience any fire as they did at Pentecost?

Yes, I did, but that's not the confirmation of the Spirit I'm referring to.

The Bible says we know from the Spirit himself that we are a child of God:

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children." (Romans 8:16 NIV1984)

I received this testimony the moment I received Christ.

 

[Asyncritus]

I'm not sure what scripture you're referring to that I quoted, but what I want you to do is show me the scripture that says the giving of the the Holy Spirit before water baptism was the sign, and not just the giving of the Holy Spirit itself. Okay?

The scripture I have a question about is:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

Did you experience any fire as they did at Pentecost?

...but the plain explanation, like how Peter explains it was the giving of the Holy Spirit that was the sign to him that God has indeed granted the gentiles repentance unto life.

That is what I have been saying, and you have been denying.

You have been saying on the basis of this incident, that people (like yourself) can and do receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptised.

As I said, it is plain that this is a one-off happening, which God did for the simple reason that, as you say: that was the sign to him that God has indeed granted the gentiles repentance unto life.

If it IS a one-off happening (because it never happens anywhere else in the Acts), then how can you claim that it happened to you?

Yes, I did, but that's not the confirmation of the Spirit I'm referring to.

What do you mean 'Yes I did'? Just like at Pentecost? Did anybody see this, like at Pentecost?

Just to summarise:

I am saying that every example we have in the Acts shows that the spirit is given AFTER baptism.

Cornelius is the only exception, to show that God has indeed granted the gentiles repentance unto life.

You are saying that you (and others) received the spirit BEFORE water baptism.

I am saying that Acts says that is the wrong way round.

 

[kjb1769]

What about the fire?

I don't know of anyone that was baptized with fire, but at some point in time it will happen.

I appreciate the long list of verses you posted, however not all of them were water baptisms as you implied.

Mark 1.8 water & Spirit.

Mark 10.38,39 Luke 12.50 Jesus is speaking of the coming death burial & ressurection.

Acts 1.5 a baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Rom 6.3 baptism into Christ Death not water.

1Cor 10.2 Didn't Moses cross on dry land?

1 Cor 12.13 baptism by the Spirit into the body no water here.

Gal 3.27 same as 1 Cor 12.13 by the Spirit into the body ( into Christ) not into water.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The scripture I have a question about is:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

Did you experience any fire as they did at Pentecost?

I already said, 'yes'.

You have been saying on the basis of this incident, that people (like yourself) can and do receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptised.

What I'm saying is it is scripturally legitimate for a person to receive the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism. The common attack on 'experiences' among Christians is that if an experience does not have scriptural support it can not be legitimate. Well, here's an experience that many, many, many people claim to have had which is plainly supported by scripture, yet people still find ways to strip that experience away from people...and for some of the most impractical and useless reasons. What does it matter that some saved people got the Holy Spirit before their water baptism? I share the truth so that one day these kinds of arguments in the church that divide us will go away and we can get everybody on to the things that actually matter and we can stop looking so foolish in the eyes of the world.

As I said, it is plain that this is a one-off happening, which God did for the simple reason that, as you say: that was the sign to him that God has indeed granted the gentiles repentance unto life.

Please be careful how you use my quotes. I in no way, even remotely, think the timing of the giving of the Holy Spirit in Cornelius' home was the sign to the Jews. The text plainly says it was the fact that they got the Holy Spirit, all by itself, that testified that the gentiles are included in the gospel promise, too.

If it IS a one-off happening (because it never happens anywhere else in the Acts), then how can you claim that it happened to you?

The 'if' is your argument, not mine. You're the one who has to prove from scripture that this was a one time event. But, there is no scripture that teaches that. The only defense for your argument is that you think it is implied in the text that it's a one time event. There isn't any evidence for doing even that.

Just to summarise:

I am saying that every example we have in the Acts shows that the spirit is given AFTER baptism.

You are so wrong. Haven't you been reading all the posts in this thread?

Cornelius is the only exception, to show that God has indeed granted the gentiles repentance unto life.

You are saying that you (and others) received the spirit BEFORE water baptism.

I am saying that Acts says that is the wrong way round.

You see it as the wrong way around because of a legalistic interpretation of Acts 2:38 being taught in the church, and somehow can't accept the times recorded in the Bible when the Holy Spirit was not given through a legalistic sequence of event.

 

[stovebolts]

Why do people always want to add water every time they see the word baptise?

Is this a trick question?

Baptism, in Scriptures, means to immerse in water...

Regards

What amazes me is how people try to separate the two. It's like separation of our spirit from our flesh in this life. It's just not possible. I believe the bigger picture of baptism, as well as salvation paints a picture that is very concerned with our flesh and blood here and now, and our new bodies in the world to come. In short, salvation is holistic not just spiritual.

 

[francisdesales]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: -Matthew 3:11

Read it again Jesus is the one baptizing with the Holy Ghost & with fire.

This happens during Christian water baptism, which does not occur until after He ascends to the Father. He states at the Last Supper that He cannot send the Spirit until that time...

No one is actually baptized with physical fire. I presume you understand that this is a metaphorical or analogical statement. What does fire do and why is it used in Scriptures metaphorically? When we are forgiven of sins, they are burned away. In addition, we are made into new images as a result of this baptism. We are "re-forged". The dross is being burned away and continues to be burned away as we continue to grow in Christ.

But there is no other way for baptism to occur in Scriptures then with water. Nor do we find any historical records from the first few centuries that speak of a non-water baptism that precludes any necessity for being baptised by water and the Spirit.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. -Acts 19:2
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. -Acts 19:3

I don't see the problem. They were baptized by John's baptism, which had NO POWER to forgive sins. Only AFTER the resurrection did Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Christian water baptism does. That is why people who desire to become Christians seek it out.

As in the eunuch with Philip.

And why aren't you addressing my Scripture allusion at all?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

What amazes me is how people try to separate the two. It's like separation of our spirit from our flesh in this life. It's just not possible. I believe the bigger picture of baptism, as well as salvation paints a picture that is very concerned with our flesh and blood here and now, and our new bodies in the world to come. In short, salvation is holistic not just spiritual.

Modern day Gnostics have forgotten that Christ rose and ascended into heaven with a body...

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe the bigger picture of baptism, as well as salvation paints a picture that is very concerned with our flesh and blood here and now, and our new bodies in the world to come. In short, salvation is holistic not just spiritual.

But probably not as holistic as you might be suggesting:

"...eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God." (1 Peter 3:20-21 NIV1984)

It is clear that God wants us to show our pledge of a clear conscience toward God by being baptized, but to suggest it may have literal physical value is a little extreme.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nor do we find any historical records from the first few centuries that speak of a non-water baptism that precludes any necessity for being baptised by water and the Spirit.

(emphasis mine)
And that is where the argument gets misrepresented IMO. Even if you do receive the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism, that does not now relieve you of the command to be water baptized. It simply means you did not receive the Spirit at your water baptism. Some (very few in my experience) do receive the Spirit at water baptism, some do not. I just happen to be one that did not. But that certainly didn't mean I could skip my water baptism. It does have value in cementing one's decision, or pledge, to follow Christ in the obediences of faith.