Do you haft to be baptized?

[kjb1769]

Morning StoveBolts

Your reply says that I'm separating the physical act of baptism from the Spiritual baptism.

I'm not.

I was showing what the scripture says.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
We agree on that right?

The Church the Body of Christ is sealed, & saved.
Do we agree on that?

Then by one Spirit we are Baptised into one body.
The Spirit baptism is the baptism that put us in the body of Christ.

The scripture is what is separating the two not me.

I believe it is God's will that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

I think it should be plain that it is by grace we are saved, it is a gift of God, not of our works, lest we boast.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: -Colossians 2:10
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: -Colossians 2:11
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. -Colossians 2:12

I also want to mention I appreciate the ability to discuss this topic.

 

[stovebolts]

Morning StoveBolts

Good morning!

Your reply says that I'm separating the physical act of baptism from the Spiritual baptism.

I'm not.

I was showing what the scripture says.

Well, I would agree that you are showing a side of scripture, and that side certainly holds truth. But it does not contain the fullness of the truth. Again, I just want to clarify that I take the position of adult baptism and the scripture references that show a normative response. To add, I don't believe the scriptures teach infant baptism and I don't believe baptism as a rite into the church. church being "Baptist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Pentecostal etc etc etc."

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
We agree on that right?

If you are calling the gospel being the good news that Christ is risen, then yes. 2 Timothy 2:8

The Church the Body of Christ is sealed, & saved.
Do we agree on that?

Honestly, I believe that the Body of Christ is sealed and saved, but I also believe scripture teaches one can fall away from the body. I'm sure that's another topic though.

Then by one Spirit we are Baptised into one body.
The Spirit baptism is the baptism that put us in the body of Christ.

Agree, but I'd also add that the physical body of Christ is demarcated by way of a physical baptism.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

So scripture clearly teaches that by way of repenting and being baptized (water), they were added to the visible church. We also see Peter assuring them the gift of the Holy Spirit by way of baptism. Something very spiritual is taking place, wouldn't you agree? And it's visible in a very physical way.

The scripture is what is separating the two not me.

I am simply maintaining that the two are not seperate and apart from one another, but complementary in a normative way. Again, Paul says, "One baptism", not I.

I believe it is God's will that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

As do I.

I think it should be plain that it is by grace we are saved, it is a gift of God, not of our works, lest we boast.

Absolutly! But why? Verse 10 holds the answer: For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works

Water Baptism is a good work isn't it?

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: -Colossians 2:10
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: -Colossians 2:11
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. -Colossians 2:12

I also want to mention I appreciate the ability to discuss this topic.

All good scriptures And I too appreciate the ability to discuss this with you as well. You're very level headed, and I appreciate that more than you know.

Thanks!

 

[francisdesales]

I agree being Baptised is the entrance into the Church the Body of Christ!

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. -1 Corinthians 12:13

Good. But know, Paul is refering to a physically observable baptism. One of water AND the Spirit. Through the sacramental action, the observable water, we know that God's Spirit is acting invisibly to "give birth" to another Christian. Born from above. This birth from above unites us to the cross of Christ.

Regards

 

[kjb1769]

StoveBolts

The gospel found in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Now here is where we will come to some disagreement & as you said it is somewhat off the topic of baptism, and should warrant it's own thread.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? -Acts 2:37

Who's the "they"? The men of Israel in verse 22.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 2:38

The "remission" of sins & the fact that Peter is speaking to "Ye men of Israel" is where we'll get crossed up.

Peter in Acts 3:19 again says to repent and be converted and also tells them when their sins will be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

Paul plainly teaches that we have received forgiveness of sins.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; -Ephesians 1:7

I see Peter's & Paul's messages as being different.

That is why I believe water baptism was a necessity for Peter. Not to mention the fact it was a command of Jesus.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: -Matthew 28:19
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. -Matthew 28:20

I believe it was necessary for the believers to be Baptised in water to be added to the church at Jerusalem which Saul was persecuting when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus.

No doubt Saul was Baptised in water and no doubt Paul Baptised others in water.
In 1 Cor 1

But then Paul says in verse 17 Christ sent him not to baptize but preach the gospel.

The gospel is what saves now.

The saved believer is then baptized by the Spirit into the body.

That's why Paul says one baptism, one Spirit, one body.

 

[Asyncritus]

Folks it still stands: shouting oh how I love Jesus and how I trust Him and all this talk about the fruit of the Spirit is for naught if not having done what Jesus commands in the way He commands and for the reason He commands, Matt. 7:l6-27.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Mk 16.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Thanks for your clarity Webb.

I don't understand why there's so much dust in the air over what is clearly both a command from the Lord, and his own practice:

The command is above, here's His practice:

Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

 

[stovebolts]

kjb,
I understand what your saying and I even agree with part of it. But Baptism by water wasn't just for the Jews and Peter found this out later in Acts 10. What does Peter say in Acts 10? Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

So we see that baptism by water wasn't just for the Jews, it was also for gentiles, and he recieved this through a vision from God earlier on. And I think Paul understood this since in 1 Corinthians we also see Paul baptizing gentiles. Yet Paul affirms what Peter had to learn the hard way.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. -1 Corinthians 12:13

That is why I believe water baptism was a necessity for Peter. Not to mention the fact it was a command of Jesus.

And your half way there! Praise God!

 

[Asyncritus]

KJ

Your problem seems to be, 'what does by the spirit' mean?

What do you think it means?

 

[kjb1769]

KJ

Your problem seems to be, 'what does by the spirit' mean?

What do you think it means?

The Spirit in the verse that I'm referring to is capitalized so I think it means the Holy Spirit.

 

[kjb1769]

StoveBolts
In Acts 10 Cornelius was:

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, -Acts 10:1
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. -Acts 10:2

So he by his blessing of Israel was included.

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. -Genesis 12:3

But that was not the case for the Ephesians who heard the gospel:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, -Ephesians 1:13

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts
In Acts 10 Cornelius was:

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, -Acts 10:1
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. -Acts 10:2

So he by his blessing of Israel was included.

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. -Genesis 12:3

But that was not the case for the Ephesians who heard the gospel:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, -Ephesians 1:13

But he was still a gentile. He was not a Jewish convert like those we find as examples in the Old Testament. To use a Jewish term, he would possibly have been tagged as a Noahide as far as Peter was concerned. Still, it is clear that Peter did not find it fit to have a gentile, even a Noahide baptized with water. And the point to the story is that God did indeed intend for Gentiles to share in the fullness of baptism.

But you bring up an excellent point, one that affirms Paul's understanding of the gentiles as well for as you already know, we are all ONE in Christ. Agreed?

 

[kjb1769]

StoveBolts
I do agree we are one in Christ.

The Lord sent an holy angel that appeared to Cornelius in the ninth hour (vs 4) and instructed him to send for Simon Peter, after telling him " Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God."

Yes Cornelius was a Gentile who had blessed Israel.

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. -Acts 10:22

The order of what occurred with Peter at Cornelius's house changed from Acts 2:38.

The Holy Ghost fell before water baptism.

That was a shock to the circumcision.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 10:45

Something had changed.

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts
I do agree we are one in Christ.

The Lord sent an holy angel that appeared to Cornelius in the ninth hour (vs 4) and instructed him to send for Simon Peter, after telling him " Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God."

Yes Cornelius was a Gentile who had blessed Israel.

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. -Acts 10:22

The order of what occurred with Peter at Cornelius's house changed from Acts 2:38.

The Holy Ghost fell before water baptism.

That was a shock to the circumcision.

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 10:45

Something had changed.

kjb,
I'm not fully understanding how your saying that Cornelius was a blessing to Israel. Can you expand upon that please?

Aside from that, I agree with everything you've written. Very well done indeed. And if I can add, you'll see that water baptism and baptism by the spirit are never very far from one another in the scriptures are they?

If we go back to Peter in Acts 2, Peter claims that through a repentant heart their sins will be forgiven upon baptism and they will have the assurance of the Holy Spirit. Does that mean they will receive the gift upon their baptism? In some cases yes, in others no. But there is that assurance that it will come, and Peter ties that assurance to water baptism. Do you agree with this so far?

When we look at Acts 10, the Holy Spirit was granted before water baptism, and this was astonishing because it goes against everything Peter understood now doesn't it. First off, the Holy Spirit was given to a gentile family and secondly, it was given before water baptism. But I believe this is more of an exception than a rule because obviously God was making it clear to Peter (and the jewish Christians) that the gentiles would receive the same blessing under this new covenant as the Jews.

 

[Asyncritus]

The Spirit in the verse that I'm referring to is capitalized so I think it means the Holy Spirit.

There's no distinction between capitals and lower case letters in the Greek.

But I do think you're right, in that it is the Holy Spirit.

The question is really, what does the 'by' mean.

Does it mean:

1 The HSp does the baptising?

2 The baptising is done by the instructions given by the HSp?

3 The baptising is done by the authority conferred by the HSp?

3 Something else?

Whaddya think?

 

[kjb1769]

StoveBolts
Cornelius blessed Israel by giving alms.
Similar to the Centurion who's servant was healed by Jesus.
And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: -Luke 7:4
For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. -Luke 7:5

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. -Matthew 25:40

The farthest separation of water baptism and baptism with Holy Ghost would be the Apostles.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. -Acts 1:5

One other place of interest is found in Acts 8 we find believers who were baptized but didn't recieve the Holy Ghost until the apostles laid hands on them.

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: -Acts 8:14
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: -Acts 8:15
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) -Acts 8:16
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. -Acts 8:17

Let's not forget that Israel along with the temple were still in Jerusalem.
That a gentile could still come to God through Israel.

Something that we can't do today. Now thier is 1 mediator between God and man, the crucified,ressurected Christ Jesus.

So I think were back to the word of truth the gospel of your salvation.

 

[kjb1769]

There's no distinction between capitals and lower case letters in the Greek.

But I do think you're right, in that it is the Holy Spirit.

The question is really, what does the 'by' mean.

Does it mean:

1 The HSp does the baptising?

2 The baptising is done by the instructions given by the HSp?

3 The baptising is done by the authority conferred by the HSp?

3 Something else?

Whaddya think?

I believe "by" means the HSp does the baptizing.

Unlike what we see in Acts chapter 1 where the apostles were baptized "with" the Holy Ghost.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. -Acts 1:5

 

[EricTheBaptist]

In the Old Testament, when a non-Jew wanted to follow the God of Israel and convert, they had to be circumcised, baptized, and bring a burnt offering. At least we don't have to do that.

Then again I can be baptized in water as much as I want, isn't going to make me saved. I know people who've been baptized but don't act saved, that's where my reasoning of inner acceptance comes in at.

 

[Asyncritus]

I believe "by" means the HSp does the baptizing.

What exactly does that mean, do you think?

When Jesus was baptized, John did the job.

So too with the apostles, and Philip is a very clear example with the eunuch.

I have to tell you that I am a little perplexed by what 'by one spirit' means exactly in 1 Cor 12.

Then there is the other problem raised by Ephesians: 'one baptism' it says.

We see thousands being baptised in the Acts: in water. So if there's ONE baptism, that was it. Where then does the HSp baptism enter the picture?

 

[Asyncritus]

Then again I can be baptized in water as much as I want, isn't going to make me saved. I know people who've been baptized but don't act saved, that's where my reasoning of inner acceptance comes in at.

It's as Jesus says, Eric.

He that believeth AND is baptised shall be saved.

Belief first, then baptism follows.

One without the other is useless. You can be baptised till you turn into a duck, but if there's no belief, you're sunk:

"He that believeth not shall be damned."

 

[Webb]

AND John 3:18 reads: "---but he that believeth not is condemned already---."

 

[glorydaz]

AND John 3:18 reads: "---but he that believeth not is condemned already---."

It doesn't say, "He that is not baptized is condemned." Rather it says "He that believeth not is condemned."

You say it's implied, but the Bible doesn't deal with implications. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Spirit. You actually have to add to the Word of God to make it say what you claim.

John the Baptist was sent to baptize with water in order to manifest Jesus to ISRAEL. John 1:31 "And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water." John the Baptist wanted Jesus to baptize him with water, but Jesus refused, because Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Christ didn't send Paul to baptize with water, but to preach the Gospel. 1 Cor. 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Paul never gives instructions concerning who is to be water baptized, how they are to be water-baptized or who is "qualified" to be the baptizer. He doesn't mention water baptism except that he wasn't sent to do it and talks about the heretical baptisms for the dead.

When the Seventy were sent out by Jesus as recorded in Luke 10:1-20, He didn't send them to water baptize. When Jesus sends out the Two Witnesses during the Great Tribulation they were sent to prophesy and work miracles, not to water baptize. Rev. 11, and when the 144,00 Jews who are saved, they aren't water baptized.

When he writes to the Jewish Christains (Hebrews), he speaks thus... Heb. 9:9-10 "Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."

According to Scripture was the thief on the cross water-baptized after he was saved? Was Zacchaeaus or the woman at the well said to be water baptized even after they were saved? No. Jesus didn't water baptize, nor did he tell anyone else to baptize any of the people whom He saved. No where. Just look at how many times it's recorded that "John baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost". And why does it say in Eph. there is ONE baptism not two?

And why, pray tell, does Apollos, knowing only the baptism of John, have to be taught "the ways of God more perfectly."?

Acts 18:24-26 - And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.