Do you have to call yourself a Christain to be saved.

[K2CHRIST]

I posted more than Scripture.

This is what I posted:


I was addressing this sentence by k2Christ:


What I was attempting to do was to use the Scriptures to fortify my position that first comes salvation by grace alone. Then I was most likely addressing another poster and explaining that the fruits we do, are the by-products of growth. Fruits like my tomatoes only come when the plants are strong enough to support the fruits, and nourish those vine-ripened tomatoes.

That edit surprised me because very rarely do I post on the Calvinism/Arminian "debate" and despite having very strong leanings toward one theology, I do not forcefully post that way. Instead, I am more likely to take a conciliatory position.

Edited

Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

You are writing that we are saved by "grace alone". But there is no mention of grace in the above verse. And in the verse you quote:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You seem to ignore "through faith", by saying by 'grace alone, but you also quote "Genesis 15: 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness" which points again to belief (faith). The grace part is that belief is counted as righteousness and not actually doing righteous works.

This conversation came about because of a response I made to the OP which had:

I believe that sincerity is about striving to live in love and truth, which is a law written on the heart (Jeremiah 31:33 'I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts'). If we didn't have bibles we would still have a conscience.

Would God reject people who are striving to love if they do not claim outwardly to be Christian?
Do you have to call yourself a Christian to be saved?

The problem I have with the OP is the above part which seems to be about striving to live in love according to our conscience.

The point I am trying to make is it is not about try to live according to our conscience but according to the voice of the Lord!!

If we didn't have bible we could still have the voice of the Lord. Abram heard the voice of the Lord and believed it was the Lord, that was counted to him as righteousness.

Now by God's grace just believing was counted to Abram as righteousness. God could have require more, like striving to love according to our conscience, but by God's grace He didn't require that. God required belief (faith). Which is good for us because our best works (striving to love) is like filthy rags to God. And it is indeed that 'good for us' that we call the gospel (Good News)

The problem that I often see at church (and it was seen by those God used to write the Bible also) is that we get into good works according to our thinking instead of seeking the Lord for what to do. Sometimes I see people that get into God's grace and forgiveness almost as a reason to not seek the Lord and live by faith.

That is to say I sometimes run across people that seem think that because of God's grace they can just do what they think is good (according to their thinking/conscience) and they will be saved. But that does not result in seeking what the Lord has to say to us, though it does result in depending on God's grace alone.

They wind up reading Ephesians 2:8 as - For by grace alone are ye saved, --- instead of --- For by grace are ye saved through faith --- as it is written

Because God is love, He gives us grace (unmerited favor) and provides us His Son and the Holy Spirit so we can hear from God by faith. And that faith indeed comes from hearing God. (Rm 10;17) But is a person hearing from God if they are thinking they are going to live by striving to love according to their conscience? Or are they going to be saved if they think that because of God's grace alone they are saved and faith to realize that we can hear from God by faith and thus seek Him for instructions?

I have a conscience. It is me reminding me to do what is right. What is right is seeking my Lord's voice for what is right and listening to what He says to me, because frankly I don't really know what the right thing to do is, but I am convinced that He does. But I still get side tracked and wonder a bit this way or that according to my thinking until again I remember that I need Him and His thinking. Because of His grace He gives me His thinking. I hear it.

He tells me things like:

WE HEAR WISDOM, BUT IS IT THE HEARING OR THE ACTING UPON IT THAT MAKES A MAN WISE?

YOU DIDN’T MAKE ME AN AWESOME GOD, BUT YOU CAN MAKE ME AN AWESOME GOD.

God is awesome, but I don't make Him awesome by telling people to live according to their conscience but according to the Lord Jesus Christ. I might make Him awesome by telling people about the grace of God, but not if I am only making it about His grace and not about Him. We have to put our faith in Him. So it is not by grace alone but because of His grace we are saved through faith!

 

[WIP]

Not trying to argue but a thought came to me as I read your post, K2CHRIST. What if Abram, although he believed, ignored or flat out rejected the Lord?

 

[Kidron]

No.
You have to act like you're saved.

-
Too many actors, not enough saved.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What is sincerity, and do you have to call yourself a Christian to be saved?

Nope - you have to BE A CHRISTIAN (be Born again of the Spirit) in order to call yourself a Christian.

 

[Edward]

I heard it somewhere that "Christian" means, Christ like...so in a way, I sorta hesitate to call myself Christian. Because I don't feel very Christ like. Plus, it's about a relationship with Christ too, so...what's in a label?

However, I am a Christian and seek Him and a relationship, so, yes. 2

Does that make sense?

 

[selihah]

Does one have to call his or her self anything? No, but I am saved by Yehovah's grace. For when I stumble I seek His forgivness and He forgives me. No strings attached.

 

[Jim Parker]

Nope - you have to BE A CHRISTIAN (be Born again of the Spirit) in order to call yourself a Christian.

Actually, anyone can call himself a Christian. The Mormons and JWs call themselves Christians. So do the people at the Westboro Baptist church whose primary "spiritual gifts" seem to be hating homosexuals out loud (really loud) in public, and providing the unsaved, pagan. society of the USA an excuse to never, ever, think about even going near a Christian church.

iakov the fool

 

[Mike]

Actually, anyone can call himself a Christian. The Mormons and JWs call themselves Christians. So do the people at the Westboro Baptist church whose primary "spiritual gifts" seem to be hating homosexuals out loud (really loud) in public, and providing the unsaved, pagan. society of the USA an excuse to never, ever, think about even going near a Christian church.

iakov the fool

That's answering the question in reverse. If the OP had asked if you have to be saved to call yourself a Christian, your response would make perfect sense. I agree with your point, though. Christianity has been marred by those who don't know Christ, and you gave great examples of them.

To the OP, I'd say Mark 9:38-41 speaks to His followers who don't necessarily say that they are "Christians" but follow Him.

"38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”

39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."

 

[JohnDB]

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Wisdom is the right/correct application of knowledge.

Blasphemy of God's name...which is beyond His tag has always been a capital offense in His Book. It's a direct cousin to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

It's not something to take lightly or without authorization from God.

The days of riding the Christian "bandwagon" are almost over...soon the days of persecution will begin. And that label will begin to feel like a badge of dishonor... like the Jews felt during the Nazis rise to power. I wonder who will keep the title and who will betray God.

Can you imagine a man praying in public fearing for months afterwards that his whole family was going to get sent to jail?

Sounds ludicrous...but it's happened many times in history. Probably going to happen again... just like it is now in some places like China, India and other places.

But...in the end who's opinion really matters most?

 

[WIP]

I heard it somewhere that "Christian" means, Christ like...so in a way, I sorta hesitate to call myself Christian. Because I don't feel very Christ like. Plus, it's about a relationship with Christ too, so...what's in a label?

However, I am a Christian and seek Him and a relationship, so, yes. 2

Does that make sense?

My understanding of the term/title Christian is that it means disciple or follower of Christ. The word disciple seems to be defined as one who teaches and spreads the doctrine of another.

Using the NKJV, throughout the book of Acts it seems a common term used to describe those who were disciples or followers of Jesus was "the Way."
Acts 9:1-2, "Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." This phrase was used in Acts 19 and 24 as well.

Then in Acts 11 we read, "Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

In Acts 26 when Paul gave his defense before King Agrippa, "Then Agrippa said to Paul, 'You almost persuade me to become a Christian.'"

The term is also used in 1 Peter 4.
"Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter."

 

[Edward]

My understanding of the term/title Christian is that it means disciple or follower of Christ. The word disciple seems to be defined as one who teaches and spreads the doctrine of another.

Using the NKJV, throughout the book of Acts it seems a common term used to describe those who were disciples or followers of Jesus was "the Way."
Acts 9:1-2, "Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." This phrase was used in Acts 19 and 24 as well.

Then in Acts 11 we read, "Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

In Acts 26 when Paul gave his defense before King Agrippa, "Then Agrippa said to Paul, 'You almost persuade me to become a Christian.'"

The term is also used in 1 Peter 4.
"Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter."

Really...in that case I am a Christian.
Thx Brother.

 

[By Grace]

You are writing that we are saved by "grace alone". But there is no mention of grace in the above verse. And in the verse you quote:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Please do a dictionary definition of the prepositions "by" and "through". I could do it for you, but it is more fun if you do it, and please cite the source.

 

[reba]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Please do a dictionary definition of the prepositions "by" and "through". I could do it for you, but it is more fun if you do it, and please cite the source.

I wrote:

"You are writing that we are saved by "grace alone". But there is no mention of grace in the above verse. And in the verse you quote:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

And that to your comments that we are saved by grace alone. Did you not read the verse? It says that by grace we are saved through faith!

So it is not by grace alone! It fact we are save because we believe. Now we are save because we believe because by grace of God, God made it that way. He could have required something other way for us to be saved, instead of through us having faith in God. Never-the-less, God counted Abram's faith as righteousness and not Abram's deeds. Well that takes a lot of unmerited favor, but it is still though our faith.

So what does that mean to us. It means we must believe in God. And God is Omni-present, so it means we believe He is with us. If we do believe He is with us we of course are going to expect Him to talk to us and we are going to listen to Him because He is God, at least that is what we are saying we believe.

The problem that I have seen, and I am not saying you have this problem, but I have seen people that focus on God's grace and don't act like they believe He is really around. A person can reason that because they are saved by the grace of God they can now do whatever they want and whenever they want and it is ok. So they don't listen to the Lord. They don't have conversations with Him. They in fact act like He is in some far off place called heaven. So instead of coming into a wonderful personal relationship with God, they simply go about leaning on their own understanding. A person like that is liable to preach that we are saved by God's grace alone, because they fail to actually believe that He is really there to talk to us.

I can't be like that, because He talks to me everyday. And when I have problems I seek Him who is with me for guidance. Oh, I am a person with all the personality of a person, so sometime I don't like what He tells me. I have even gotten angry with Him at times because He doesn't think like I do (see things like I think He should). So I do in fact need His grace and mercy. I couldn't be save without it. But it is through my faith that I am save, because He is who He is and He has favor for me that I don't deserve.

As for any person that thinks that they are in fact saved by God's grace alone so they don't seek Him and know Him, and in their heart they say to themselves that He must be in a far off place called heaven; well He is not their Lord is He, because they are not listening to His instruction, are they?

So while I don't actually know who specifically has that problem, I certainly wouldn't want anyone to me the "through faith" part of that verse. God has grace, but if a person doesn't have faith that God exists (and not in some far away place called heaven -see Rom 10) then God's grace ( that part of His personality) is not going to save them.

John 11:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

There are a lot of verses like this, and no mention of grace is in that verse. So we are save though faith. That is because of God's grace, but it in not by God's grace alone, which is the point of contention I have with your prior posts. God has grace. That is part of His personality. But not all are going to be saved! Those who believe have eternal life.

 

[By Grace]

What is sincerity, and do you have to call yourself a Christian to be saved?

Actually, anyone can call himself a Christian. The Mormons and JWs call themselves Christians. So do the people at the Westboro Baptist church whose primary "spiritual gifts" seem to be hating homosexuals out loud (really loud) in public, and providing the unsaved, pagan. society of the USA an excuse to never, ever, think about even going near a Christian church.

iakov the fool

That's answering the question in reverse. If the OP had asked if you have to be saved to call yourself a Christian, your response would make perfect sense. I agree with your point, though. Christianity has been marred by those who don't know Christ, and you gave great examples of them.

IMO neither of you are addressing the main issue of the OP, and I made that in bold red.

The OP asks first about sincerity, then it asks about the self-given appellation (as opposed to following the Scripture-based name in Acts 11) is sufficient for salvation.

Seems to me that the the OP was asking if "Christian" is a magic talisman whereby one gets himself into heaven, and the more sincere your belief is in your self-designation, then that determines the degree of surety one may be of getting into heaven. (Don't ask me to defend that one! I just rephrased it.)

 

[Jim Parker]

IMO neither of you are addressing the main issue of the OP

That is correct on my part. I didn't respond to the OP.

I responded only to Bob Carabbio's comment; "...you have to BE A CHRISTIAN (be Born again of the Spirit) in order to call yourself a Christian." in his post #44.

We can do that.

iakov the fool

 

[By Grace]

Please do a dictionary definition of the prepositions "by" and "through". I could do it for you, but it is more fun if you do it, and please cite the source.

I wrote:

"You are writing that we are saved by "grace alone". But there is no mention of grace in the above verse. And in the verse you quote:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

And that to your comments that we are saved by grace alone. Did you not read the verse? It says that by grace we are saved through faith!

Your avoidance of the simple request is noted, and the request is also repeated:

Please do a dictionary definition of the prepositions "by" and "through". I could do it for you, but it is more fun if you do it, and please cite the source.

Here is a HINT from real life:
For it is by train, (and not by walking or by driving) that you can get through the Eurotunnel le Shuttle into England or France

 

[K2CHRIST]

Please do a dictionary definition of the prepositions "by" and "through". I could do it for you, but it is more fun if you do it, and please cite the source.

Now my response to this right above is most important, but I have another comment.

Concerning "Grace" and the research of it, you might find it interesting to know that about the first 18 times grace is mentioned in the Bible (note: some translations use the word favor, so us KJV) it is connected with eyes of someone looking. For example:

Gen 6:08 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Ex 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight...

The point is that we find God's grace when we connect with God. So God has grace for us, but we find it when we look to God and get Him looking our way. That takes faith. So again we are not saved by God grace alone, but we get His grace when by faith we connect with Him. People are going to wind up in hell. That is not because God does have grace to give them, but because they don't by faith seek Him.

So I don't like the by God's grace alone message. I have heard it before. I feel it gives people the wrong impression. I feel people could hear that it is by God's grace alone and think they don't have to seek Him by faith, and listen to Him for themselves. I feel people could and some actually do, think that because God has grace they don't have to actually make Him Lord of their life so as to seek Him and listen to HIm by faith. And I feel that could lead to a disastrous conclusion for them. And I don't want that to happen.

 

[Jim Parker]

Now my response to this right above is most important, but I have another comment.

Concerning "Grace" and the research of it, you might find it interesting to know that about the first 18 times grace is mentioned in the Bible (note: some translations use the word favor, so us KJV) it is connected with eyes of someone looking. For example:

Gen 6:08 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Ex 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight...

The point is that we find God's grace when we connect with God. So God has grace for us, but we find it when we look to God and get Him looking our way. That takes faith. So again we are not saved by God grace alone, but we get His grace when by faith we connect with Him. People are going to wind up in hell. That is not because God does have grace to give them, but because they don't by faith seek Him.

So I don't like the by God's grace alone message. I have heard it before. I feel it gives people the wrong impression. I feel people could hear that it is by God's grace alone and think they don't have to seek Him by faith, and listen to Him for themselves. I feel people could and some actually do, think that because God has grace they don't have to actually make Him Lord of their life so as to seek Him and listen to HIm by faith. And I feel that could lead to a disastrous conclusion for them. And I don't want that to happen.

What is “grace”? Greek: χάρις (charis)

A. A gift.
Salvation is a gift. We cannot earn salvation. The idea of earning salvation assumes that it is possible for someone to do sufficient good works to outweigh their evil works as if it were like having more cash than debt so that we could pay the debts and still have money left over.

Such a notion raises the question, how many good works does it take to “pay for” each evil work? This is a “salvation of the market place.” (“Buying a stairway to heaven”?) It assumes that good works have some intrinsic value which can be exchanged to cover the cost of bad works which will then be removed from our “account balance.” Of course there is no good answer to that question because the question is nonsense.

The idea of earning salvation also contains the concept that good works have merits and bad works have demerits. This is a juridical approach to salvation. It is the “salvation of the courtroom.” According to this idea, sufficient meritorious work will satisfy the demands of justice to have the charges against us dismissed and expunged from our record.

Both these notions miss the point. Receiving a gift is not about accumulating enough “spiritual cash” to buy it for yourself. A gift is something that is freely given. The greatest gifts are things which you could not possible purchase for yourself, like eternal life.

B. Gifts of the Spirit. (Gr. Plural: χαρίσματα, “charismata”)
In 1 Cor 12, Paul describes the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are distributed among believers according to the will of the Holy Spirit.

These are enabling gifts. They have the purpose of enabling an individual to perform a function within the body of Christ. They are what Jesus told the disciples they would receive when the Holy Spirit came upon them; they would be empowered to be His witnesses to bring the Gospel to the world. (Acts 1:8)

C. The power to save; God’s power to grant eternal life.
1. Eternal life is a gift. In order to make that gift effective, Jesus had to have the power to destroy the power of death over mankind, which He did by His incarnation, death and resurrection as a man.
2. He also has to have the power to raise all mankind from the grave and to convert their mortal bodies to immortal and incorruptible bodies when He comes again.
3. He has the power to grant eternal life by uniting man to God in Christ.

John 1:14a (RSV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth;
Acts 6:8 (RSV) And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.

my 2 kopecks


iakov the fool


By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result from said reading. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your life.

 

[By Grace]

Your avoidance of the simple request is noted, and the request is also repeated:
Here is a HINT from real life:
For it is by train, (and not by walking or by driving) that you can get through the Eurotunnel le Shuttle into England or France

And that to your comments that we are saved by grace alone. Did you not read the verse? It says that by grace we are saved through faith!

OK, you have the option of not answering a SIMPLE QUESTION; All that one can logically assume is that you chose not to answer. But what we CAN do is to give you the answer in hopes that you will not think that "by grace alone" is any sort of a heresy, as you stated

But Reba made some pithy remarks about that sort of theology by quoting Scripture:

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Just so that you know for sure, another poster posted a lexicon-based definition of the theological term, GRACE:

What is “grace”? Greek: χάρις (charis)

A. A gift.
Salvation is a gift. We cannot earn salvation. The idea of earning salvation assumes that it is possible for someone to do sufficient good works to outweigh their evil works as if it were like having more cash than debt so that we could pay the debts and still have money left over.

Such a notion raises the question, how many good works does it take to “pay for” each evil work? This is a “salvation of the market place.” (“Buying a stairway to heaven”?) It assumes that good works have some intrinsic value which can be exchanged to cover the cost of bad works which will then be removed from our “account balance.” Of course there is no good answer to that question because the question is nonsense.

So Reba is using Scripture again, and this time she is essentially calling you an unbeliever and/or a deceiver; surely I am not:

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So is it the case that Reba's quoting of Scripture is accurate?

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Is that an accurate quote? If it is, then what is your opinion about how other posters react when they see teaching that is not taught by the Disciples and Apostles on an open forum?