ezra
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you have to call yourself a Christain to be saved.
- Thread starter CFrancis
- Start date
:amenFrom the beginning of this we see a problem! This is a problem that I so often see regarding Christianity, and the above is a good example. The problem is that we start thinking we are good instead of understanding that only God is good.
Above we see "i.e. to obey the teachings of Jesus". This is slightly wrong, yet it that "slightly" makes a enormous difference.
WE ARE NOT OBEYING THE "TEACHINGS" OF JESUS, WE ARE OBEYING JESUS!!!
Jesus Christ said that He would never leave us and that Him and the Father would make their abode in us. (Jn 14:20)
Paul explains this in Romans chapter 10. and Moses covered it in Duet. 30. They wrote that the word is near you, so we don't say who will ascend into heaven to hear from God or think that God has died so we can't hear from Him for that reason. But that is exactly what the above writing is saying: that God is not with us to be inquired of!
So we don't write; "If we didn't have bibles we would still have a conscience." We might write, ' If we didn't have a bible we would still have Jesus Christ.'
It is not about having a conscience, it is about having the Lord our God with us and listening to HIm!!!
Our conscience is "OUR" conscience. It is us telling us to do what is right. But that is just leaning on our own understanding!!
So what is the right thing to do?
Well it is asking the Lord what we should do! And then listen to what He personal tells us. And we have studied the Bible to help us discern whether it is Him or not, right?
So if we are saying to try and live by His teachings (as something given to us 2000 years ago) instead of by His instruction ( as something given to us today), we have confessed that He is not our Lord. We may be saying He is Lord (as in a governing authority that has gone off to some far off place called heaven, or perhaps he is still not come back to life), but we not confessing He is our Lord if we are looking to our conscience instead of His still small voice which we find inside us!
So to answer the last questions:
Would God reject people who are striving to love if they do not claim outwardly to be Christian?
This is called "Good Works". It rejects God and puts ourselves as our god. It is nothing more than leaning out our understanding. I am not a Christian because I call myself a Christian. I am a Christian because I know and try to follow the instructions daily given to me by my Lord Jesus Christ. Flatly and frankly, He asked me to write this. He told me where to write it. He then had me redo it because it was not good enough for Him. He told me all that, this morning. So I am a Christian because I have a Lord giving me instructions. Personally I had some other things to do which I could make some money from, but I did this anyway.
Do you have to call yourself a Christian to be saved?
Absolutely not. You can call yourself what you want whether you are saved of not. Many "Christian" don't know the Lord and are not looking for Him "Today". And for all I know there might be someone somewhere that does know the Lord and follows His voice who is not a "Christian", but why wouldn't they call themselves a Christian then? Abraham knew the Lord and didn't call Himself a Christian. Still the first words He told me was read your Bible, and so it seems right to call myself a Christian (as in a follower of Christ) But I actually follow Him and He leads me out by His voice.
Jn 10:4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
His voice is not your conscience.
JohnDB
Member
Christian means literally "little Christ" or little Messiah.
So
Where I can understand if someone wants to avoid besmirching God's name by saying he isn't a Christian but doesn't mind being called one....to me, that makes sense.
But for ease of understanding...it's just easier to claim Christ quickly. Most of the world understands Protestant/Evangelical Christian...they don't want a theological lesson...they just want to know if you want cheese on your meat sauce in your plate of spaghetti.
So
Where I can understand if someone wants to avoid besmirching God's name by saying he isn't a Christian but doesn't mind being called one....to me, that makes sense.
But for ease of understanding...it's just easier to claim Christ quickly. Most of the world understands Protestant/Evangelical Christian...they don't want a theological lesson...they just want to know if you want cheese on your meat sauce in your plate of spaghetti.
I agree, but you MAY be missing what he is saying:
I flat out asked him about the works he made clear in the OP because I did not see any grace in what he stated.
IMO, just as there are hyper Calvinists, there are hyper Arminians, and CFrancis may be one of the latter group
Your analysis does hold when dealing with non-Christian groups such as the LDS people, and the "hetrodox" Seventh Day Adventist people, so I say to that, "Good catch!". However, there are some here who are not finely attuned to nuances in the meaning of this word versus the meaning of that word, and that is not a put-down of anyone because it is a statement of fact and experience.
After moaning and groaning over his sinful nature, Paul writes this:
Romans 7: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
and the answer to that fearful question comes in Romans 8:124 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So to answer the last questions:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Salvation is by grace alone, but fruits are important as proofs of salvation, also
This is not meant to be sarcastic but why are fruits important as proofs of salvation?
Salvation is not by grace alone as grace is the gift of Gods favor, even though we do not deserve it, as we are saved through faith, which is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross.There is nothing we can do in any kind of work that will save us, but after faith we continue in the good works of the Lord.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Jim Parker
Member
No.
You have to act like you're saved.
How can you be a soldier for Christ and an ambassador for Christ and not call yourself a Christian.
If you are afraid to tell people you are a christian, then start praying for the strength to over come that.
If you're not afraid, then get out there and tell the world.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant.
"Salvation is by grace alone, but fruits are important as proofs of salvation, also"
Fruits come after something is planted, and grows, just like the tomatoes in my garden.
Salvation by grace comes first, and as James said:
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
While it is true that we are saved by grace alone, we are saved so that we can do the work of Christ; that is why Holy spirit gives us gifts (1 Corinthians 12, etc) so we can grow the church, and build the Kingdom of Jesus.15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
The people of the LDS church do a pretty good job of acting that way.............
I put several quotes above and still see the same problem. We get to thinking we are good and not God!!!
First, I liked the "for his glory" post. We are not saved by grace, we are saved by faith. We are saved by faith and nothing more because of God's grace, but we are not saved by God's grace but by faith because God has an incredible amount of grace. He could have require some type of works or fulfillment of rules or laws, but He doesn't. He simply requires that you believe He is, as in the great I AM.
Now some say that He is but their actions don't support their stated belief!!!
If you believe that God is indeed with you, then you are going to seek Him (because He is God) for advice, wisdom, understand, and so much more. And if you seek Him you will find Him; that is to say you will start picking up Him talking to you. Of course because at first a person doesn't really understand how to hear with their spiritual ear, His voice at first usually comes across as an unction instead of an actual voice. God of course can change that, but normally new Christians pick up God pretty poorly. Never-the-less, even hearing Him poorly with your spiritual ears will result in an awareness of what should be done by you. That is to say, that you are going to start doing things for the Lord because you are going to pick up His voice telling you to do them, even if you barely pick His voice us.
So if you say you believe in the Lord but are not doing anything for Him, are you really listening to Him? Not if that goes on very long! The Lord does give instructions and those usually have something that you can point to; whether it is helping at the church or otherwise. He has a heart for people, and so you are going to be asked by Him to do something.
On the other hand, if you are thinking it is about doing things and don't know that He is talking to you (no matter how vague the impression is) then do you really believe that He exists? No you don't!! If you truly believe He exist you are going to be seeking His instructions to you personally!! Those are not found in the Bible, they are found by you listening to the words He says to you inside you. He might tell you to open the Bible, then give you a verse, then ask you to do according to that verse, but if you can't say that He was pointing to the verse and asking you to do it, then you don't really know Him do you?
Now I hear Him tell me to do things every day. That has been going on for about 15 years now. And from talking to other Christians, it seems like I pick Him up better that most. That is just practice and plenty of Christians hear Him better than I do. And it is not really important how good anyone is with hearing Him, because God judges the heart not the ability. Still it is important that we are seeking Him, because that is what it means to walk by faith. We walk (go and do) what we believe He is telling us to do; meaning we believe His exist and is our Lord, so He is telling us to do thing, so we do them.
But not all those who call themselves Christians are doing such a thing. Many say in their heart that God is far away, maybe in a far off place called heaven. So the just try and be good people, just incase they run into God after they die or something like that. That type of faith will not save you!!
Above is quoted James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Maybe that translation is not so clear. The NASB has it : What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Saul believed in God, but Paul (after his encounter on the road) believed in a God that could be heard from. Saul would have said God existed, but believed God who was called Lord but He was not around to be heard from. Paul believed in a God and confessed He was Lord because Paul got instruction from Him. Both Saul and Paul did works. The difference was that Paul was hearing from God whom he personally knew, Saul did not know Him.
So I agree with Jim Parker who wrote that you have to act like you're saved, but does Jim you have to be hearing and getting instructions from the Lord, or does he mean you have to do good works? That is unclear, as is much of our wonderful sounding messages. Jesus Christ is the great I AM, and we should make it clear to others!
n2thelight
Member
I feel its automatic as being a Christian means to be a Christ man
As in this?
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:13-16 NKJV
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." 1 Peter 2:9 NKJV
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 NKJV
"For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s." 1 Corinthians 6:20 NKJV
"Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us." 2 Corinthians 5:20 NKJV
You greatly misunderstand what I posted.
Please read that last sentence in its entirety
The last sentence was: "While it is true that we are saved by grace alone, we are saved so that we can do the work of Christ; that is why Holy Spirit gives us gifts (1 Corinthians 12, etc) so we can grow the church, and build the Kingdom of Jesus.
We are not saved by grace but because of God's grace we are saved by faith. That is what I explained.
If I think I am saved by the grace of God then I go about doing what I think is the right thing to do. That produces "Good Works" and according to the Scriptures, our best works are like filthy rags to Him.
We are not to be doing what we think is the right thing to do!!! We are to be seeking the Lord for instructions!! But you can't and won't seek the Lord for instructions until you actually believe that He can be heard from to get instructions from!! That takes faith!!
Now God would not have to answer our questions or help us out. God does not have to help us out! Who are we that He should consider us? Thankfully God, because of His love, has mercy and grace. He love the world so much He gave us His Son, whose name is called The Word of God, because He has been given the very words of God.
The result is that if we actually believe (have faith) in Jesus Christ, we can hear what instructions God has for us. And if we live by that faith we live by seeking those instructions. That is what Abraham did. Oh not perfectly. Abraham was not perfect and neither are we. But we are counted as being righteous if we hear from the (Word of the Lord) and believe He is God.
Knowing that I have the grace of God may and does help me turn back to God we I mess up if I have the faith to believe I can hear from Him. If I think the grace of God saved me then I would turn back to God when I mess up, I will just keep messing up because I believe in His grace but not in Him!!
So it is like pretty much like for-hi-glory wrote:
So again, we are not saved by grace! Because of God's grace, we are saved through faith! It is very important to understand the difference, because thinking it is grace promotes doing what we think is right but understanding it is by faith promotes seeking what He has to say to us.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Edited by staff
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life
Genesis 15:. 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness
Romans 4: 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life
Genesis 15:. 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness
Romans 4: 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
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Not sure what point you are trying to make with just posting scripture. Are you saying we are saved by grace or by faith as we have shown you?
I posted more than Scripture.
This is what I posted:
I was addressing this sentence by k2Christ:
What I was attempting to do was to use the Scriptures to fortify my position that first comes salvation by grace alone. Then I was most likely addressing another poster and explaining that the fruits we do, are the by-products of growth. Fruits like my tomatoes only come when the plants are strong enough to support the fruits, and nourish those vine-ripened tomatoes.
That edit surprised me because very rarely do I post on the Calvinism/Arminian "debate" and despite having very strong leanings toward one theology, I do not forcefully post that way. Instead, I am more likely to take a conciliatory position.
Edited
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OK, so I am totally confused so I will start again. Do you believe we are saved by grace through faith or just grace alone?