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I can't argue your point...however, I am very guilty of using the Jewish extra Biblical sources as reference to support Biblical points for clarification.

A lot of people in past forums have criticized me for using Jewish resources but I use them to better understand their concepts.
Hi Georges and welcome.

I agree with the above. How can we even begin to understand End Times without a proper understand the culture and customs in which most of Scripture was written?

Though I am aware Revelation is highly figurative and symbolic, I do see many places where things must be taken literally. Like Rev. 4:1 and 7:4. I try not to speculate where I can't find Scriptural scources to back up my eschatological beliefs. I don't believe in a secret rapture, therefore the only place I can see it happenning is just prior to God's Wrath, after the falling away, the revealing of the 'man of perdition', the removal of the Restrainer and the tribulation. The signs of the second coming of Christ and the end of the world as we know it (no pop lyric reference intended-LOL) is pretty clear to me in Scripture.

Nevertheless, I do look forward to your insight on eschatology.

Vic
 
Vic said:
I can't argue your point...however, I am very guilty of using the Jewish extra Biblical sources as reference to support Biblical points for clarification.

A lot of people in past forums have criticized me for using Jewish resources but I use them to better understand their concepts.
Hi Georges and welcome.

I agree with the above. How can we even begin to understand End Times without a proper understand the culture and customs in which most of Scripture was written?

Though I am aware Revelation is highly figurative and symbolic, I do see many places where things must be taken literally. Like Rev. 4:1 and 7:4. I try not to speculate where I can't find Scriptural scources to back up my eschatological beliefs. I don't believe in a secret rapture, therefore the only place I can see it happenning is just prior to God's Wrath, after the falling away, the revealing of the 'man of perdition', the removal of the Restrainer and the tribulation. The signs of the second coming of Christ and the end of the world as we know it (no pop lyric reference intended-LOL) is pretty clear to me in Scripture.

Nevertheless, I do look forward to your insight on eschatology.

Vic

I also concur with the need to look into Jewish sources to understand eschatoligical concepts found in the feast days (after all, christianity has thrown them out since Christ fulfilled them all ... not yet). However, we must understand that there are additions to the Word found in these sources. The case in point here would be Rosh Hashanah. Firstly, its named incorrectly based on Torah references. Secondly, the feast is only one day in Torah, yet the Talmud adds a day to its observance. This was done to make sure that you observed the correct day because they did not know the day or hour of its coming. The scripture does not support a two day observance, so basing your time scheme on this may be in err. It is still interesting.

Vic it has been said that revelation is the stolen book of the Bible. All of its concepts were introduced in the OT. Look into this; it is very interesting. (It adds nothing to the secret rapture concept, but it adds insight into eschatology.)
 
along the same lines....Matthew and Hebrews are considered to be the 2 books directed towards the Jews....in other words, they contain more Jewish idioms and expressions (concepts) than any other book in the NT, with the exception of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation has more than twice the number of Jewish references than both Matthew and Hebrews combined......

The Gospel of Matthew 96 Times
The Gospel of Mark 34 Times
The Gospel of Luke 58 Times
The Gospel of John 40 Times
Acts of the Apostles 57 Times
Romans 74 Times
1 Corinthians 41 Times
2 Corinthians 13 Times
Galatians 16 Times
Ephesians 11 Times
Philippians 3 Times
Colossians 3 Times
1 Thessalonians 2 Times
2 Thessalonians 2 Times 1 Timothy 6 Times
2 Timothy 2 Times
Titus 0 Times
Philemon 0 Times
Hebrews 86 Times
James 16 Times
1 Peter 20 Times
2 Peter 10 Times
1 John 6 Times
2 John 0 Times
3 John 0 Times
Jude 0 Times
Revelation 249 Times

Total 855 Times
 
Georges said:
along the same lines....Matthew and Hebrews are considered to be the 2 books directed towards the Jews....in other words, they contain more Jewish idioms and expressions (concepts) than any other book in the NT, with the exception of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation has more than twice the number of Jewish references than both Matthew and Hebrews combined......

Do you have a reference for this? I am interested (and skeptical) in how the researcher defined 'Jewish' idioms. All of the NT books were written by Jews so why were there so few idioms in the other books?
 
dcookcan said:
Georges said:
along the same lines....Matthew and Hebrews are considered to be the 2 books directed towards the Jews....in other words, they contain more Jewish idioms and expressions (concepts) than any other book in the NT, with the exception of Revelation.

The Book of Revelation has more than twice the number of Jewish references than both Matthew and Hebrews combined......

Do you have a reference for this? I am interested (and skeptical) in how the researcher defined 'Jewish' idioms. All of the NT books were written by Jews so why were there so few idioms in the other books?



Excepts from a book I have written concerning the Messianic Interpretation of Revelation containing some of the references.....these are easy to find on the internet.....

From the chapter titled "Prerequisites"......

Part 1: Understanding that the Book of Revelation was written originally in Hebrew:

E.W. Bullinger states in his book “The Apocalypse†concerning the Hebraic nature of “The Book of Revelationâ€Â.


“Though this may be considered by some as a minor point, it is so important that it must not be passed over. Most critical commentators have to deal with it because; from the earliest times, the enemies of the Book have made use of this undeniable fact in order to argue that it has no right to a place in a Canon of the other Greek Books of the New Testament!

The Hebrew character of the book is shown in its use of idioms, expressions, words and phrases, which cannot be called Greek; and indeed is called by many "bad Greek."

Professor Godet in his Studies on the New Testament, says, p. 331: "The only serious objection that can be urged against the authenticity of the Apocalypse, lies in the difference which is observable between its style, and that of the fourth Gospel. The latter is free from Aramaic expressions, the former is saturated with them." And again (p. 351), "the Apocalypse bears, from one end of it to the other, the character of a Hebrew prophecy."

The argument based on this fact by the opponents of the Apocalypse is dealt with by scholars in various ways. But the subject is not one which would be of general interest to grammar. Those who wish to see the subject exhaustively treated are referred to the Commentary on the Apocalypse, by Moses Stuart, who devotes over twenty pages to it (pp. 190-210).

There is however another side to the question: and that is, that, while the enemies use the fact against the Book itself, we use it against the popular interpretation of it. Though the language is Greek, the thoughts and idioms are Hebrew; and this links it on, not to the Pauline epistles, but to the Old Testament, and shows that its great subject is God's final dealings with the Jew and the Gentile; and not the Church of God.

Connected with this fact there is another, that emphasizes it in a remarkable manner. It is not only Hebrew in character as to its linguistic peculiarities, but especially in its use of the Old Testament. Only those who have most intimate acquaintance with the Old Testament can properly understand the Apocalypse. But all who know anything of old Testament history cannot fail to detect the almost constant reference to it.
All the imagery - the Temple, the Tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, the Altar, the Incense, the heads of the twenty-four courses of Priests (the pattern of which David's was a copy, I Chr. 28:19, see chap. 25., and compare Heb. 9:23, etc), all this belongs peculiarly to Israel.

The same may be said of the judgments, which follow on the lines of the plagues of Egypt, and therefore are to be just as real: indeed they are to exceed in dread reality those which were executed in the Exodus from Egypt. For it is written (Exe.34: 10) - "And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all they people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation; and all the people among which thou art shall see the word of the lord; for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee." It is the fulfilment of this covenant with Israel, which is the great subject of the Apocalypse.

But it is when we come to look at the literary connection between the Old Testament and the Apocalypse that we find evidences of the most striking kind.

If we count up the number of Old Testament passages quoted or alluded to in the New Testament, * we find that the gospel of Matthew has a very large number, amounting in all to 92. The Epistle to the Hebrews comes higher still with 102. Now both these books are connected in a special manner with Israel. Matthew, it is universally admitted, stands out among the four Gospels as being especially Jewish in its character. And the Epistle to the Hebrews was specially written to Hebrews, and they are addressed as such.

The table below presents a list numbering all of the Old Testament quotes used in each New Testament book. As indicated by this chart the “Book of Revelation†quotes or refers to the Old Testament more than the books of Matthew and Hebrews combined.

The close connection between the Old and New Testament is shown by the number of times the Old Testament is quoted in the New Testament. Bagster's Bible gives 889 quotations and allusions. George F. Pentecost gives the number at 885, a few of the allusions given by Bagster's Bible being disputed. Every book of the Old Testament is quoted except Obadiah, Nahum, Zephaniah, and Esther. There is only one quotation from the Song of Solomon. According to Dr. Pentecost the number of the Old Testament quotations and allusions in each New Testament book is as follows:

The Gospel of Matthew 96 Times 1 Timothy 6 Times
The Gospel of Mark 34 Times 2 Timothy 2 Times
The Gospel of Luke 58 Times Titus 0 Times
The Gospel of John 40 Times Philemon 0 Times
Acts of the Apostles 57 Times Hebrews 86 Times
Romans 74 Times James 16 Times
1 Corinthians 41 Times 1 Peter 20 Times
2 Corinthians 13 Times 2 Peter 10 Times
Galatians 16 Times 1 John 6 Times
Ephesians 11 Times 2 John 0 Times
Philippians 3 Times 3 John 0 Times
Colossians 3 Times Jude 0 Times
1 Thessalonians 2 Times Revelation 249 Times
2 Thessalonians 2 Times Total 855 Times



Bullinger continues,

Now, when we turn to the Apocalypse, what do we find? The result, which to our mind is overwhelming. No less than 285 references to the Old Testament. More than three times as many as Matthew, and nearly three times as many as the Epistle to the Hebrews. We ask whether this does not give the book of Revelation a very special connection with the Old Testament, and with Israel? It is undoubtedly written about the people of the Old Testament who are the subjects of its history. These will understand it as Gentile Christians can neer hope to do.â€Â
 
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