Do you need to believe Jesus is God to be saved?

[WalterandDebbie]

I do not believe in heaven going and immortal souls.

We do not either.

Then I said above that I disagree, that Jesus is not God and we do not go to heaven.

We believe there is one GOD, and He is Jesus' Father, It is also His dwelling place, When Jesus said that GOD is a Spirit, please tell us what was He talking about to the Woman at the well, besides worship.

Love, Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Here you say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to go to heaven.

Every Christian I think, because GOD has given a measure of Faith, which can grow.

Love, Walter

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
TrevorL who was speaking and walking in the Garden of Eden? Voices do not walk. So this cannot just be a bad mixed metaphor.

Genesis 3:8-9 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Moses specifically called this person "Lord God."
(As opposed to just God)

"Did not the Word taking on a human body cause somekind of change?" Quote from TrevorL

You do know that God is talking about His nature, and not His form, in Malachi? God changed His form in the Old Testament. He was a man that wrestled with Jacob. He was a burning bush to Moses. He was a cloud during the day and a pillar of fire by night when guiding the children of Israel. So it's clear that God can take on any form He chooses and this does not violate His nature. By contrast, when Jesus hung on the cross bearing our sins, the Father had to forsake Jesus so as to not violate His nature.
Form and nature, two separate attributes.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I believe you have to know what sin is as well. You also have to understand the consequences of sin. Otherwise, why change? But I agree with what you are meaning. The gospel has to be kept simple.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Fastfredy0]

The gospel has to be kept simple.

Why? Do you have a verse(s).
If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

 

[Whatever]

Like me putting on a shirt. I did not change,

But it says the Word became flesh.
That Greek word is = G1096 ginomai

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place"
(Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

The King James and several other versions say "the Word was made flesh."

This is from the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325)
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day, he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

The Word did not just take on a temporary human body. He died and rose in that same body and will have this body He did not have in the beginning for eternity.

 

[Josef]

Why? Do you have a verse(s).
If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

Hey All,
Fastfredy0 , I accept your challenge. If you need to, you may download it and use it as you see fit. I just want to see people receive Jesus.


If you are serious I can take you through the sinner's prayer. But I want you to understand what we are doing, and why we do it.

1. All have sinned.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2. We have no righteousness within ourselves.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

3. Unforgiven sin leads to death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

4. God provides a way for us, through His Son Jesus Christ, to have our sins forgiven, and have everlasting life. (Salvation)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

5. Jesus will provide forgiveness, and salvation, if we receive Him into our lives.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

6. When Jesus enters our lives, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

7. Once we are cleansed, we are, in Christ, new creatures.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How do we get there? If we are truly repentant, here is a simple prayer asking for forgiveness.

Jesus, I know that I am not where I should be with You. I repent of my sins, and ask You come into my life; and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Thank You Jesus. Amen.


Congratulations, and welcome to the family.
If we have done this, we have become new creatures. Now you need to read about what has happened. I recommend two books in the Bible from which to start. The gospel of John to begin to understand who Jesus is. I also recommend reading 1 John to understand what being a believer means. There is also another benefit for reading 1 John.

1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

And who doesn't want their joy to be full?


Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again "electedbyhim", Walter and Debbie, Fastfredy0, and Josef,

When we bow the knee to Jesus Christ, we are bowing down to Yahweh.
They are the same one, as the Spirit of God.
The Trinity.

No, God the Father, Yahweh and our Lord jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Jesus in his role of the Messiah is sometimes addressed as Yahweh because, like the Angels in the O.T., he represents God the Father, Yahweh. Do you endorse the Athanasian Creed and its support for the Apostate Catholic Church? When and where do you draw the line?

You must have misunderstood me somewhere.

I must apologise as it could have been my mistake. I should not have pursued this. I am trying to answer all the many posts in this thread and maybe this is part of my confusion.

It is O.K. to worship an idol if it is Jesus.

Jesus is God's appointed Messiah, the everlasting Davidic King, and the Priest after the Order of Melchizedek for ever. We should acknowledge the greatness of these positions that God has appointed. I like the following Psalm that seems to express David's assessment of Jesus' thoughts surrounding his sufferings, salvation and exaltation:
Psalm 21:1–7 (KJV): 1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever. 5 His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him. 6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance. 7 For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.
This does not seem to be the language of the Trinity, and it clearly distinguishes the two beings, Yahweh and Jesus.

When Jesus said that GOD is a Spirit, please tell us what was He talking about to the Woman at the well, besides worship.

I will leave this aspect, but I think I asked you previously as to what you are saying here, and what this means in the whole context. I could find my previous post on this.

Every Christian I think, because GOD has given a measure of Faith, which can grow.

I reject heaven going and immortal souls, and I reject that Jesus is God. Your category "Christian" is ambiguous, as most Catholics who are Mary worshipers and Trinitarians claim to be "Christian". I endorse first century Apostolic Christians, not the Apostate Churches and their many false doctrines and practices.

@TrevorL who was speaking and walking in the Garden of Eden? Voices do not walk. So this cannot just be a bad mixed metaphor.

I consider that this was the Appointed Yahweh Angel (similar to Michael at the Burning Bush), who was with other Angels, who were on the way to interview Adam and Eve, but Adam was scared because of his sin. Yahweh, God Himself, could NOT interview directly Adam and Eve who were now sinners, as Yahweh, God the Father dwells in heaven.

You do know that God is talking about His nature, and not His form, in Malachi? God changed His form in the Old Testament. He was a man that wrestled with Jacob. He was a burning bush to Moses. He was a cloud during the day and a pillar of fire by night when guiding the children of Israel. So it's clear that God can take on any form He chooses and this does not violate His nature. By contrast, when Jesus hung on the cross bearing our sins, the Father had to forsake Jesus so as to not violate His nature.
Form and nature, two separate attributes.

I will leave this in the realm of your speculation. Jesus was in the form of God at birth and in his development, as he was part of the New Creation, Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8, John 1:1,14. Philippains 2 is not about shrinking God the Son into the womb of Mary for 9 months.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WalterandDebbie]

No, God the Father, Yahweh and our Lord jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Jesus in his role of the messiah is sometimes addressed as Yahweh because, like the Angels in the O.T., he represents God the Father, Yahweh. Do you endorse the Creed and its support for the Apostate Catholic Church? Whern and where do you draw the line?

Scripture, please

I will leave this aspect, but I think I asked you previously as to what you are saying here, and what this means in the whole context. I could find my previous post on this

Thank you, My point is what Jesus said about GOD is a Spirit, Jesus is His Son, and GOD was in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19

I reject heaven going and immortal souls, and I reject that Jesus is God. Your category "Christian" is ambiguous, as most Catholics who are Mary worshipers and Trinitarians claim to be "Christian". I endorse first century Apostolic Christians, not the Apostate Churches.

Yes, you have pointed out these things

I must apologise as it could have been my mistake. I should not have pursued this. I am trying to answer all the many posts in this thread and maybe this is part of my confusion.

Please, one thing at a time, ok?
Love, Walter And Debbie

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Do you endorse the Creed and its support for the Apostate Catholic Church? Whern and where do you draw the line?

No, Sir, we do not.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Walter and Debbie,

Scripture, please

Isaiah 40:3–11 (KJV): 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! 10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

This is speaking about Jesus, not Yahweh Himself. Yahweh, God the Father dwells in heaven. The glory revealed is spoken about by John, and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, a distinct being and person from His Father:

John 1:14 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mark 1:1–9 (KJV): 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel’s hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit. 9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

No, Sir, we do not.

When and where do the Trinitarians draw the line?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Greetings again Walter and Debbie,

Isaiah 40:3–11 (KJV): 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! 10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

This is speaking about Jesus, not Yahweh Himself. Yahweh, God the Father dwells in heaven. The glory revealed is spoken about by John, and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, a distinct being and person from His Father:

John 1:14 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mark 1:1–9 (KJV): 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel’s hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit. 9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.aa

When and where do the Trinitarians draw the line?

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes, Till we all come in the unity of the faith, Ephesians 4:13

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: God changed when He assumed a human body. He put on a suit so to speak.

But it says the Word became flesh.
That Greek word is = G1096 ginomai

God is immutable. He never "becomes something". He remains the same. (I can list many verses stating God is immutable if needed). The fact that God does "X" or "Y" in different situations does not mean He changed. God used a human body with self imposed human limitations but he did not change. Maybe it's matter of semantics.
One day God was talking to Moses and the next He was not ... I suppose you could say one day God was a talker and the next He became silent but God did not change; He creates situations and acts according to the situation. He creates time which encompasses matter and movement in space and He reacts in time even though He is outside of time... He being somehow in all points of time concurrently and unchanging .... (we're starting to get beyond human understanding if not well beyond it, or at least I am *giggle*)

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place"

God does act in a way that is appropriate for the conditions. But He knowledge, power, thoughts, composition, whatever, do not change. Were God to change, He would of necessity become a creature. He would be what He once was not.. To worship a creature, any creature, is idolatry (Revelation 19:10). He would not be eternal if He were to change.
The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before, must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Charnock, Stephen

He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Aside: you put up some good arguments ... may be semantics

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

1. All have sinned.

So, if anyone does not believe all have sinned they go to hell? Although I agree that all sinned.... what verse can you site the correlates salvific faith including "all have sinned"? There is no such verse IMO.

We have no righteousness within ourselves

Again true ... but my question that you are answering is "what must be done to be saved". There in nothing in this statement of fact that indicates something to be done to be saved. Are you saying that if someone does not feel he has righteousness in himself he is not saved? There is not such verse IMO.

Unforgiven sin leads to death.

Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved".

4. God provides a way for us, through His Son Jesus Christ, to have our sins forgiven, and have everlasting life.

Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved".

5. Jesus will provide forgiveness, and salvation, if we receive Him into our lives.

Finally, something relevant to my question. To be saved we have to receive Him into our lives. But this does not explain what we have to do to "receive Him into our lives" and therefore fall far short of my question which is: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

Aside: You stated the gospel is simple but you sure don't have a simple response.

6. When Jesus enters our lives, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved". It's a statement of what happens afterwards.

7. Once we are cleansed, we are, in Christ, new creatures.

Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved". It's a statement of what happens afterwards.

How do we get there? If we are truly repentant, here is a simple prayer asking for forgiveness.

Jesus, I know that I am not where I should be with You. I repent of my sins, and ask You come into my life; and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Thank You Jesus. Amen.

So, are you saying one just has to say these words and one is saved? What does "repent" mean... to some it means "I'm sorry".

If the salvific gospel is so simple ... then you should be able to state in let's say 100 words; probably less. You had many words but only a few points addressed my question.... you should one must receive Jesus (but did not say what that entails) and one must repent (but did not define repent).

Aside: I don't believe one has to repent (change his mind) to be saved ... rather, one repents as a result of being saved. If repenting is a precursor to salvation then we are saved to some extent by WORKS.

Aside: I think you are giving the background story as to the need for salvation, the consequences of sin, what God has done to provide for salvation.....but my question was: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved. WHAT MUST JOE DO TO BE SAVED in 100 words or less.

 

[electedbyHim]

Re: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.


So, if anyone does not believe all have sinned they go to hell? Although I agree that all sinned.... what verse can you site the correlates salvific faith including "all have sinned"? There is no such verse IMO.



Again true ... but my question that you are answering is "what must be done to be saved". There in nothing in this statement of fact that indicates something to be done to be saved. Are you saying that if someone does not feel he has righteousness in himself he is not saved? There is not such verse IMO.



Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved".



Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved".



Finally, something relevant to my question. To be saved we have to receive Him into our lives. But this does not explain what we have to do to "receive Him into our lives" and therefore fall far short of my question which is: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

Aside: You stated the gospel is simple but you sure don't have a simple response.



Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved". It's a statement of what happens afterwards.


Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved". It's a statement of what happens afterwards.



So, are you saying one just has to say these words and one is saved? What does "repent" mean... to some it means "I'm sorry".

If the salvific gospel is so simple ... then you should be able to state in let's say 100 words; probably less. You had many words but only a few points addressed my question.... you should one must receive Jesus (but did not say what that entails) and one must repent (but did not define repent).

Aside: I don't believe one has to repent (change his mind) to be saved ... rather, one repents as a result of being saved. If repenting is a precursor to salvation then we are saved to some extent by WORKS.

Aside: I think you are giving the background story as to the need for salvation, the consequences of sin, what God has done to provide for salvation.....but my question was: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved. WHAT MUST JOE DO TO BE SAVED in 100 words or less.

Your replies are valid to Josef

I am interested in what this "simple gospel" entails.

What does it really mean to "receive Christ"?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Your replies are valid to Josef

I am interested in what this "simple gospel" entails.

What does it really mean to "receive Christ"?

I'll send you a private message of my understanding.

 

[Josef]

Re: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.


So, if anyone does not believe all have sinned they go to hell? Although I agree that all sinned.... what verse can you site the correlates salvific faith including "all have sinned"? There is no such verse IMO.



Again true ... but my question that you are answering is "what must be done to be saved". There in nothing in this statement of fact that indicates something to be done to be saved. Are you saying that if someone does not feel he has righteousness in himself he is not saved? There is not such verse IMO.



Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved".



Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved".



Finally, something relevant to my question. To be saved we have to receive Him into our lives. But this does not explain what we have to do to "receive Him into our lives" and therefore fall far short of my question which is: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved.

Aside: You stated the gospel is simple but you sure don't have a simple response.



Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved". It's a statement of what happens afterwards.


Again true .. but does not address my question. There is nothing in this statement as to "what needs to be done to be saved". It's a statement of what happens afterwards.



So, are you saying one just has to say these words and one is saved? What does "repent" mean... to some it means "I'm sorry".

If the salvific gospel is so simple ... then you should be able to state in let's say 100 words; probably less. You had many words but only a few points addressed my question.... you should one must receive Jesus (but did not say what that entails) and one must repent (but did not define repent).

Aside: I don't believe one has to repent (change his mind) to be saved ... rather, one repents as a result of being saved. If repenting is a precursor to salvation then we are saved to some extent by WORKS.

Aside: I think you are giving the background story as to the need for salvation, the consequences of sin, what God has done to provide for salvation.....but my question was: If the salvific gospel is simple, then clearly state what needs to be done to be saved. WHAT MUST JOE DO TO BE SAVED in 100 words or less.

Hey All,
As a believer, it is my job, and my pleasure, to share with you the hope that I have. It is the Holy Spirit's job to make you understand it. I can put it into less than 100 words. But I am not going to. I am not here to play a game with you. If you can't understand what was laid out for you, then I am not the person to lead you to Jesus.
I hope you find the right one.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Fastfredy0]

It is the Holy Spirit's job to make you understand it.

Agreed 1 Cor. 2:14

 

[Josef]

Your replies are valid to Josef

I am interested in what this "simple gospel" entails.

What does it really mean to "receive Christ"?

Hey All,
electedbyhim , I am using receive as a synonym for accept, or believe in.
The simple gospel is John 3:16. The verses I cited in post #63 explain why we need salvation, then John 3:16, and then what it means when we do believe in, or accept, or receive Jesus. I get the receiving from Revelation 3:20. When you open your door and let someone in, it is also called receiving them.


Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am using receive as a synonym for accept, or believe in

... again, what exactly must one receive (accept, believe, whatever) to be saved.

Can one believe 1+1=2 and be saved from hell....? You have not answered the question ... you said it was simple......state the simple answer to what one must receive (accept, believe, whatever) to be saved. Don't hide the simple answer in the word "receive" without saying what is to be received.

Romans 10:9-10, 1 Cor. 15:1-4 ... got some info there for a start
... maybe one has to be baptised .... as implied in Mark 16 I think "He who has believed [in Me] and has been baptized will be saved"