Jesus Christ Claims to be Yahweh - John 8:23-25

[JLB]

The angel of the LORD is not the Father.

We agree.

That means the angel of the LORD isn’t God like I have been saying.

False!

The Angel of the LORD is the Son; The Word of God who became flesh.

• Angels are sons of God; The Angel of the LORD is the SON of God.

We see from Exodus that the scripture (not me) the scripture describes the Angel of the LORD this way -


1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


Please consider these points from the scriptures:

1. the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.

Point number 1 - It was the Angel of the LORD ( not God the Father) who appeared to Moses from the midst of the burning bush.

2. So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look...​

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Point number 2 - Now we see the scripture indicate that the Angel of the LORD who was interacting with Moses from the midst of the burning bush, was in fact the LORD (YHWH).

3. God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”​

Point number 3 - Now we see the progression of understanding culminate in the fact that it was GOD (Not God the Father) but the Son who had appeared to Moses from the midst of the burning bush and was speaking to Moses from the midst of the burning bush and that the scripture plainly and clearly says that Moses was afraid to look upon God, (not God the Father but God the Son)

• Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Question:

Do you believe the Angel of the LORD who Moses saw and interacted with from the midst of the burning bush was God the Father or God the Son?




JLB

 

[Free]

It isn't. John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God. That alone is in complete disharmony with the Trinity doctrine.

Not at all because, once again, you are taking that one verse and using it to override and reinterpret those passages which are clear on the deity of Jesus, such as John 20:28. That is very poor hermeneutics, since you are taking that one verse out of context.

Jesus said "no one" knows them aside from those they chose to reveal. Since the Holy Spirit is a distinct person in Trinitarianism then by Jesus' words he did not say the Holy Spirit is someone who knows them.

No offense intended, but it seems that you really don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. Each person of the Trinity shares in the substance or essence that is God, meaning each is truly and fully God in and of themselves. As such, the Holy Spirit knows all that the Father and Son know, regardless of whether or not he is mentioned. Each has different roles within the Trinity for the purposes of salvation, but that does not at all make one inferior to the other.

Philippians 2:5-8 disprove the deity of Jesus so I have not taken anything out of context. You are taking those verse out of context.

Philippians 2:5 begins with telling them to have the same mind as Jesus. After that, Paul explains for them how to have the mind of Jesus. Paul is not teaching them how to believe they are God.

Of course "Paul is not teaching them how to believe they are God." No one is even close saying that he is. Paul is telling them to have the same mind of Jesus in regards to how they view themselves in relation to others.

Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, (ESV)

Paul's point is that they are to love one another in such a way that they "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit," "count others more significant than [them]selves," and that each of them "look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." It is about humility.

And, there is no greater example of humility that can even be conceived than the Son of God, being truly God in nature, coming to earth in the form of one of his creatures, humbling himself to Father, and dying to make atonement as a propitiatory sacrifice. That is the ultimate humiliation, and if God did that for us, then how much more ought we treat others with such humility.

Hebrews 1:9 refers to the Son who was anointed by his God. Therefore, the one doing the anointing in Hebrews 1:10 is YHWH, not Jesus. That's why Hebrews 1:10 begins with the word "and" because it's conjoined with Hebrews 1:9. This also disproves the deity of Jesus. There is no way around this.

No. There are two different quotes--verses 8-9 are quoting Psalm 45:6-7, and verses 10-12 are quoting Psalm 102:25-27. The "And" in verse 10 links back to "But of the Son he says," in verse 8. Verses 10-12 prove that Jesus, as the preincarnate Son, was thought of as creator and God by the very first Christians.

God isn't a human under any circumstances.

That's fallaciously begging the question.

The Bible clearly says that a human as God is idolatry and is a sin because humans are creatures. It's all in Romans 1.

It says that worshiping anything that is created is idolatry. It is not talking about worshiping God, even if he also has a human nature.

Love this passage and I use it as often as I can to explain how Jesus isn't God.

Aside from verse 5 being Paul's premise as to what verses 6-8 are about, verse 6 says Jesus existed in the "form" of God. That word form means the visual outward appearance. It is used in the New Testament and Septuagint to refer to what one can visually see in regards to shape or form. It means Jesus isn't godly, righteous, etc.

Aside from verse 5 being Paul's premise as to what verses 6-8 are about, verse 6 says Jesus existed in the "form" of God. That word form means the visual outward appearance. It is used in the New Testament and Septuagint to refer to what one can visually see in regards to shape or form. It means Jesus isn't godly, righteous, etc.

You really need to do a lot more study on this, and much deeper study. Morphe, as explained above, has to do with the essence. He was in essence, in nature, God, just as in verse 7 he became a servant truly and inwardly. It is schēma, "fashion," in verse 8 that is the visual outward appearance. It means that his outward appearance to humans hid his essence, who he really was. However, we know that he was a human in appearance only, that was an error John taught against (1 John 4:2; 2 John 1:7); he was truly and fully human. Therefore, how much more than is he truly and fully God. This is Paul's point with the use of homoiōmati, "likeness" in verse 8. It means that he was truly human, yet there was more to him than just human nature. Notice that he did not appear in the likeness of God. His full self was not fully expressed.

There is simply no way to use this passage to disprove the deity of Jesus. And, at a minimum, it proves the preexistence of the Son.

 

[Free]

Colossians 1:15-20 refers to the creation of the church. There is no other possible thing a man could have created. Frist of all, verse 15 makes it clear from the get go that Jesus isn't God, but rather than image of the invisible God. That means Jesus isn't the invisible God.

No, it doesn't refer to the creation of the Church at all. You don't seem to understand how language and grammar work, particularly conjunctions. Again, no offense intended, but that really does seem to be the case. Note that Paul beings verse 16 with "For" (or "because"), which means he is explaining what he means by verse 15. Then, verses 17 and 18 both begin with "And," which means Paul is continuing the explanation. He is linking all these things together.

Given that verses 16 and 17 are exhaustive of all things that came into being, it necessarily follows that the Son cannot be something or someone who came into being. That means verse 15 absolutely cannot, in any way, be saying that the Son isn't also truly God, or that would contradict the clear statements in verses 17-18.

"Image" is the Greek word eikōn, and means:

"Image is more than likeness which may be superficial and incidental. It implies a prototype, and embodies the essential verity of its prototype" (M. R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament).

2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (ESV)

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (ESV)

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

Joh 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. (ESV)

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (ESV)

Jesus is the literal embodiment of God; our context even tells us this:

Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, (ESV)

So, being "the image of the invisible God" means that he is the revelation of God to humans; he is the invisible God made visible for our sake.

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/conjunctions/

I don't need to explain anymore after I have shown that Jesus isn't God.

You haven't done it yet; not even close.

The correct way to understand the rest is that Jesus isn't the Creator because he isn't God. The passage here talks about what God made "through" Jesus.

Verses 16-17 are exhaustive of everything that has ever been created, just like John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6. Paul is speaking of the preincarnate Son, not the God-man, just as John does in John 1:1-10.

Not according to scripture. Matthew 11:25 refers to the Father as the Lord of heaven and earth and Acts 17:24 refers to God as the Lord of heaven and earth who made all things. Since Jesus was never called the Lord of heaven and earth, then he isn't the creator.

That "Jesus was never called the Lord of heaven and earth" in no way means "he isn't the creator." That is to ignore much other context in Scripture. Besides, we have already seen that since you believe "one God, the Father" excludes the Son from being God, that you must necessarily believe that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" excludes the Father from being Lord, ever. You cannot have it both ways.

However, since we know that the Father is also Lord, just as the Son is, we know that the Son is also God, just as the Father is, which is supported by all things existing through the Son. This is further supported by the following title used of God being applied to the Son:

1Ti 6:15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, (ESV)

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” (ESV)

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (ESV)

Not only was the Son involved in the making of all things, he is also Lord of lords just as the Father is.

In Acts 4:23-27, John and Peter demonstrated their believe that Jesus isn't God or the creator by praying to the Sovereign Lord and Creator while referring to Jesus as His servant.

How does that prove that Jesus isn't also God?

Isaiah 44:24 makes plain that God created alone.

Not sure how to make this any plainer.

You can't because I fully agree. Of course, you are fallaciously begging the question by beginning with the premise that God is unitarian. But, we see in John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:10-12 that the Son was also involved in everything that was created.

I'm not sure how I can make that any plainer. You begin with the assumption that God is unitarian and read that into every other text and so reinterpret them to say something other than what a plain reading clearly shows. Trinitarians follow the evidence and try to make sense of all of it, without reinterpreting anything.

They make sense when the context isn't taken into full consideration, but I couldn't in good conscience just snip select verses out of context and say they mean something that completely changes when the verses surrounding them are read with them.

But that is precisely what you do, even changing the plain meaning of surrounding context and ignoring sound reasoning in the process. My argument regarding John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17--that the Son cannot be something created or ever came into being--is sound.

Indeed. Yet John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

Case in point. No, it does not preclude either the Son or the Holy Spirit from also being truly God.

That word only means only, solitary. That means the Father in your Trinity is the only true God and the others aren't the true God.

Not at all. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that directly or explicitly states that God is unitarian. Not one. Besides, a unitarian God is deficient and cannot be the true God of the Bible, because he cannot be love, as I have pointed out previously.